Frogman, this thread would not function well without you, it's just that the words objective and subjective are as different as night and day. While what you say about music has more technical validity than anyone else's, it's not etched in stone; another expert might differ, that's the nature of music.
Could we say your statements in regard to the technicalities of music have more objective validity than anyone else on this thread, and leave it at that.
Sometime we like the same music, many times we don't. Only twins like the same music all the time, but I always care to hear what you think about music even when we disagree.
As you know, I approach music from a purely subjective stance; it's all about how it affects me emotionally.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, "Scarborough Fair" by Brazil 66 has it over all others for me, because I have some hot memories attached to everything they did in 66; it's just that simple.
As far as the other versions, I agree more than I disagree with your assessment of the music.
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Ghosthouse, the factors that go into whether or not we like music are enormous, and the majority of them are emotional; either it connects or it don't. While I think "Theme In Search of a Movie" is exceptionally beautiful, it leaves you cold; what's objective about that?
Maybe technically it's good music, but Frogman is the only person on this thread who could answer that. Could that be the reason he's so persistent in regard to the "objectivity" of music. You got bad taste Ghosthouse, Frogman liked it. (just kidding)
Enjoy the music.
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I just discovered that "White Rabbit" by George Benson was my most played record. Since I have a large collection (probably no bigger than yours) no one record gets played that often, but I notice "White Rabbit" more; that's because it evokes so many good memories. There's a cut "Little Train" that brings back memories of me and my little "tyke" riding a little train that ran around the forest park zoo. He's bigger than I am now, but I still have those memories.
There are so many subjective reasons for our favorite music; Grant Green is my favorite artist, but you probably already knew this. The reasons beside the good music are many; same home town, he's only a few years older, that means we both listened to the same music before he became a musician.
While there are objective factors involved in the making of music, just as there are objective factors involved in almost every thing; as a listener I'm not concerned, unless my friend is a musician who wants to explain to me how music is made.
Enjoy the music.
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Only a musician would be aware of both "Little Trains".
I never tire of George Bensons Little Train. Although I know what tastes good, I never developed good taste, but I still liked the music.
Enjoy the music.
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Kathleen Battle sure has a pretty face. (now I'm going upstairs, and listen on the main rig, no picture)
"You Tube" will not change the genre of music, if you don't change the channel........
Now that I've listened for half an hour, I can say the music was nice, but didn't evoke any memory or emotion; maybe I didn't listen long enough.
I recall when I was a kid, one of our rich relatives (the only one) decided to take us to the opera for some culture, and not being too bright, I asked "Why is she screeching like that"? it was my last trip to the opera with her.
Enjoy the music.
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In addition to jazz, I have artists from other genres which are quite diverse, and you would never suspect a "Jazz Aficionado" of having them in his collection; one such artist is Joan Baez. Her songs are so down to earth, that I believe most people who like music will have her in their collection. Right now I'm listening to one of her records that affects me deeply, because it's concerned with the less fortunate; now days no one seems to be concerned with the less fortunate, when there are more less fortunate than at any time in my life. With so many people suffering I don't see how those who are more fortunate look the other way. Joan Baez is my featured artist tonight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnS9M03F-fA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4BYOJ1tc-kEnjoy the music. |
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Apparently the pointer Sisters can sing anything and make it sound good.
"Diamonds And Rust"; Joan Baez might be the only folk singer in my collection; that's because her songs were always about subjects I could relate to, with good music; that's the bottom line. She also seemed to be timely, I wonder what's she singing about currently?
"Big Joe"; that was tough, I liked it a lot; I'll have to get it. Never heard of the artists. That's the nice thing about this thread, always something new.
Sao Paulo Ska-Jazz; now this is something new, a new type of jazz even, what's next; it's cooking.
Acman has more Sao Paulo jazz; where have I been to not know about this? It's fast hard driving jazz.
Kenny Dorham, I certainly don't have enough of him, for sure. This is some deep introspective jazz, the kind I can listen to all night, and just let the world sail on by.
With a lineup like that, it couldn't be anything but the best.
Although some of these guys are dead, to me they will never die; that's why I refer to them many times as though they were still alive.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, Freddie Hubbard sounded awfully "Boppish" to me, and Junior Cook sunded more like "Bird" or Trane than Joe Henderson to me. That could be because I don't have the same records by Joe Henderson as you. The drummer sounded like Elvin Jones, on purpose of course, just in the same way Horace Silver could sound Like Monk if he wanted to. I have a record that I forget, and swear it's Monk playing, but it's where Miles told Silver to sound like Monk; because he had a rift with Monk.
I liked the link.
Enjoy the music.
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He absolutely has that Pat Metheny sound, Saw Pat live .
Enjoy the music. |
BTW Frogman, that inference to Freddy Hubbard sounding "Boppish" was in no way bad, it was good, as in "Bird" be-boppish. Any inference to somebody sounding like "Bird" in any kind of way is nothing but the best.
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Ghosthouse, I wasn't going to respond to that post, because I have nothing significant to say in regard to Michael Jackson; as it is, I'm responding to your post to let you know that you have company; just not our bag, or maybe we're too old, or both.
Enjoy the music.
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Yes Ghosthouse, Tina Brooks is a story even sadder than most sad stories; too sad to comment on, on such a beautiful day where I am. I went to the grocery store today, and everyone was smiling and helpful; when that happens to you, you know you've gotten old. Even young attractive ladies; and dirty old man that I am, I would like to think there was some other reason for their helpful attitude, but I'm not senile yet. Getting back to music, there was a time when I dreamed of far away places with strange sounding names. This music takes you to the mountains of Peru, and the Inca's sun God; there is even an Incan high priestess singing praises to the Sun God. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weYhSmkBQhoEnjoy the music. |
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Frogman, when I'm in a "Flamenco" mood, here's another guitarist I go to along with Paco. Otmar Liebart has a kind of forlorn sound sometimes, like way out in the middle of nowhere, but he is most certainly different from any guitarist I can think of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh1isv5s0uo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfq-AgfUlHYI have both these albums, and there is a consistent mood that is sustained on both of them. Enjoy the music. |
Alex, I've liked Flamenco since childhood, when the only time I heard it was in a bullfighting movie set in spain, or a cowboy movie in Mexico.
Rok, insisted on "classical jazz" because of the title of the thread, and that's how I got in the habit of posting nothing else, but my record collection is very diverse.
I thoroughly enjoyed all the clips you posted; those will be added to my collection.
Enjoy the music.
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Ghosthouse, no, it hasn't been done, and Frogman would be the person who could shed light on the subject.
During the time I was in close contact with a jazz musician in 69, he never rehearsed or held rehearsals. The first set I witnessed; him, and what's called "pick up musicians" gathered about an hour before the set, and discussed what was to go down. I listened intently, but understood nothing.
Professional "hard bop" musicians have a language that only they understand. Since he was a friend of mine, I was really nervous before the set kicked off; "Ain't no way this is going to come out right" was racing through my mind, because this was a hard bop audience, and the place was packed.
That was a memorable set, and it went as he knew it would; the musicians played as though they they had been doing it for a lifetime.
Enjoy the music.
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Speaking of rehearsals, the "greats" would meet at Rudy's, discuss what they were going to play, and jam for the recording; you might have one of those records in your collection.
Ray Charles hired a new musical director, who complained because David "Fathead" Newman didn't come to rehearsals. Fathead said "Talk to the man Ray". When Ray sided with the musical director, Fathead walked.
The "greats" don't think too much of "Rehearsals"; unless of course you're talking "Big Band", and my collection doesn't talk much big band.
Enjoy the music.
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If I said anything that would be contrary to what "Bird" said, I would of course be wrong.
If you think I said something contrary to what "Bird" said, you misinterpreted what I said.
Enjoy the music
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Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section is a 1957 jazz album by saxophonist Art Pepper with Red Garland, Paul Chambers, and Philly Joe Jones, who at the time were the rhythm section for Miles Davis's quintet. The album is considered a milestone in Pepper's career. According to Pepper, the album was recorded under enormous pressure, as he first learned of the recording session the morning he was due in the studio, and he had never met the other musicians, all of whom he greatly admired. He was playing on an instrument in a bad state of repair, and was suffering from a drug problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC04bkiNrlcGhosthouse, what people don't realize, is the fact that these are very special people, special beyond many individuals comprehension; if they are performing on a regular basis, they don't have to practice or rehearse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP5YBfFZvN8Enjoy the music. |
It's a funny thing about dope and jazz musicians; most people think that somehow the dope helps them to become fantastic musicians. I don't know how they can think that, when the musicians themselves will tell you otherwise. "Bird" was a "junky" before he became a musician, and he told other musicians not to do what he was doing. "Lady Day" would have been a "junky" if she never sang one note because of the gigantic mental problems that were caused by incidents in her childhood.
If you have read books related to all the different reasons people use dope, you would know that none of the reasons say becoming a jazz musician will entice you into using heroin, and make you a dope addict.
Most of the jazz musicians who became junkies, would be junkies if they never blew a horn.
Now that heroin addiction is a nation wide problem, maybe people will discover there's a better way to solve that problem, than incarceration.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, no one can get to where these special people are without practicing; no more than a professional tennis player can get to where he is without "practicing"; but, after a "special" musician gets to be a professional musician, when he's performing, he's also "practicing".
Hard Bop jazz musicians are in no way similar to "concert" musicians; they do not play the same thing time after time; their minds are as active as their fingers, searching for something new and different.
Did you see the intensity of concentration on Art Peppers face when he was with the rhythm section? Got to be right on time, not a split second early or late.
Enjoy the music.
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I always find it interesting to read what musicians had to say about other musicians. This is what Trane told Art Pepper, "Why don't you straighten up ? You have so much to offer. Why don't you give the world what you can?" Art said Trane was so successful that everyone always expected him to be in the forefront. The music he had developed, he could no longer play because that wasn't new anymore. He was continually trying to change, and do the avant-garde thing. He strived so hard for this that it killed him. BTW Frogman, Art seems to back you up in regard to practice; since he hadn't practiced before that recording, he knew it was impossible to carry it off, but it was already set up, and he had no choice but to go through with it. Once when he was in the hospital, and couldn't pay the bill, Roland Kirk, and some other musicians got together and played to raise money and help him out. He says what's so unique about this is; he had never met Roland Kirk. This is for Roland Kirk; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWPUKskCv7EEnjoy the music. |
Frogman, that was kind of sneaky the way you discussed both drug use and practicing, while suggesting we not discuss the subject any more.
I'm thankful that although we don't see drug use among jazz musicians, it is a serious problem in this country from North to South, and East to West. From time to time, we have wandered off the subject of music, and I have no objections to that.
Back to the subject of music, and special musicians; I had to laugh when "Bird" emphasized the aspect of schooling, like he had been to Juilliard School of Music. Of course schooling is important, but special people like him have done quite well without it, because they loved music and had the desire, drive, and ambition to succeed, even though school was unavailable due to economic reality.
In small "hard bop" jazz groups, spontaneity is the element that makes them sound so fresh. What they played depended on what was played just before their solo. Herbie Hancock told of the time he "goofed" and played wrong notes, but Miles came right behind him and made it come out beautiful.
In music, what ever the situation calls for, is the thing to do.
Enjoy the music.
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I think this ranks at the top of Art's best work, "Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section", sounds so good, but you do have to give the rhythm section a lot of credit. Do we have any Art Pepper scholars here? Is there something better? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16OoypHXcpsEnjoy the music. |
"Bernie's Tune" is a long time favorite of mine, and he sounds much better on this one; that is his horn sounds better, but the overall music on TRS is hard to beat.
I've got that "Pepper + eleven", I'll have to play it.
Thanks for the clips
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I smell a "conspiracy" in regard to that harassment after she married a young husband.
Once "they" found something that could stick "they" wouldn't let up.
Who cares about what an entertainer does as long as they entertain? Nobody but "them".
Will get back to you with more.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, this is a musical forum and I thoroughly appreciated your contribution of Valaida Snow., when I mentioned "conspiracy", I was thinking of entertainers other than Ms. Snow who were affected because they didn't follow the script.
Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I'm so glad you didn't come up with any of the answers I expected you to come up with. Now I can happily get back to the music. This is the most unusual record in my collection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhdFmgoP4NEEnjoy the music. |
Alex, that's about the most intelligent statement you've made. Day by day the music and this whole hobby is becoming more and more irrelevant; especially when I know why people don't have jobs and are suffering so much; there has been a transfer of the wealth in this country that most people don't understand; it's related to the price of food and gasoline among other things. But you can count on the media to get everything wrong; intentionally.
Fox TV seems to keep more people dumbed down than anything I know; nothing is more stupid than that left, right talk, and "race" is used to manipulate people into doing all sorts of stupid s--t.
in 1980, I sold real estate in the grandest subdivision I have ever seen that the "working man" could afford to live in. The space in all these uniquely designed homes was divided up in a way where just about anyone could get what they wanted.
Some had huge kitchens with a center island, like kitchens you see in rich LA homes. They all had 3 or 4 bedrooms, 2 baths, and a double car garage. They also had a family room for entertaining, and a small front room, that stayed spotless because it was never used. Although all these homes had the same total amount of space, it was divided up in many different ways, and they were all in the same price range. This subdivision had it's own security and a swimming pool.
At that time there were three Black families living in that subdivision, who all were professionals with degrees.
There was never any kind of "known" problem in that subdivision, but an "unknown" problem existed; one racist agent told his client not to sell to Blacks, and my Black client wanted to buy that house. They caused so many problems, that I finally persuaded my client to pick another, even better house in that same subdivision.
The Whites that lived there worked at the Aircraft factory, or at Ford Motors; this was the American Dream, and it was available for the working man. It was available because of the Unions that made sure the workers got their fair share of the profits.
While neither that subdivision or that community was racist; I have three points to make: 1. A working man could afford a grand style of living at that time.
2. Instead of enjoying his grand life, he resented a Black man living in the same life style.
3. He resented it so much that he voted against his own economic interest for the sake of some racial interest that won't buy a slice of bread.
By voting for people who consider working class people beneath them, and only consider the interests of the arostocracy, we have poverty for the working man, and riches more than the aristocracy can count.
Those people even turned the Democratic party around; have you ever heard of NAFTA.
If you notice Fox TV uses "race" to manipulate people; some people can be manipulated to hang themselves if they think it's the "Right" thing to do meaning the "conservative" thing to do; they do not have the ability to think for themselves; they talk in left, right code talk, meaning "Progressives" who ever they are, are the bad people; this is the same as when the "boogy man" communists were the enemy, or the union was the enemy, they're too dumb to realize that the union was "them" and it fought for their wages, and jobs and benefits. Now that there is no union, how do they like food stamps?
BTW, hit don't make no difference now. The Democratic president considers the Trans Pacific Partnership more important than poverty or unemployment. Although this is a music forum and I thoroughly appreciated everyone's contributions, I can chew gum and walk at the same time.
I wish more people would look at what has happened to the middle working class in this country.
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Rok, you're 100% correct, looking at everything through the prism of race is total stupidity. If you look through the prism of economic class, you will see the light, and that's what Fox TV forbids. Then, if you're a working class stiff, you will see Fox TV is not your friend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p94rvSMo6DoEnjoy the music. |
Frogman, the only place communism exists is in Cuba, and the poor people are doing better in Cuba than they are here. Communism is about as much a threat here as the boogieman.
We fought a war in Vietnam to stop communism, and we all Know how that Turned out. Rich people profit from wars while poor people die fighting them.
Acman, do poor people have disposable income? There is a thing called a 401K that includes money which goes to the stock market that working people pay.
Politicians work for rich people as a result of lobbying in both parties. If you notice, even in this hobby, it's no longer affordable; the gear we used to by, is now priced for the rich, because that class is growing, while whatever economic class we are in is shrinking.
There is "no one" representing working class people in this country.
Have a nice day.
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I hate to spoil everybody's fun, but there is as much insanity at the very highest levels of government as in the movies; phone tap, computer tap, and tap the tap; meaning lets get back to the music. I know I started this conversation, and I also Know about the insanity that's not suppose to exist; it's just like in the movies, crazy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh9UPDjh2H0How about some more crazy music. |
That was very well written Alex; it's amazing how people who live here can not see the forest for the trees. It's best not to soil brains that have been washed spotlessly clean. Now we go back to the music.
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Alex, I'm savoring your contributions; they're so fresh and new to me. I've heard a lot about the musicians, like Earl Hines and Herb Pomeroy, but don't have them in my collection.
Body and Soul by John Lewis is really mellow; Jim Hall is one of my favorite guitarists.
Keep em coming.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, I didn't even know jazz existed before "Bird"; at least that's what my collection looks like. Now I'll have to correct that.
Evidently you didn't know about the back and forth banter me and Rok have had in regard to "Sweet Georgia Brown"; maybe he'll clue you in.
I liked his piano with P.G. better. It's a generational thing in regard to his overall concept of music; while I might like some things, his overall concept of music predates mine. I read where the pianist I like, thought very highly of Earl "fatha" Hines.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, this is the honest to God truth; when I was getting home treatment after surgery, the lady treating me was telling about welfare cheats; she even knew a lady who was living in "Ladue" on section 8. Ladue is where the richest people in St. Louis live.
Get back to the music.
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I know how you feel Alex, but when you're talking to people who don't think in terms of cause and effect, it's a waste of time; especially when they have computers that can research, and give them the facts. There is no way some people will let facts stand in the way of their illusions. I wouldn't care one iota, if I were not affected by their stupidity; but now more than ever, the middle class needs people who can think, we can not afford stupidity. Left, right, liberal, conservative; what does that have to do with a man getting a job and feeding his family? Or going out of business because of the economy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IplQqzPRXqA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZyFKfPyi6QEnjoy the music. |
Ghosthouse, it seems everyone is turning to you, including me. I'm glad the musical conversation is continuing without me. My thoughts are consumed with the realities of the middle class.
Southerners think and vote with the rich, even when they're poor. Rok, talks about people on food stamps like their less than dirt, and how poor people are misusing his tax dollars, when that much is wasted everyday in Washington on defense somewhere. He doesn't even know about the "Black Budget"; "That's some kind of a conspiracy".
When people who are in my economic class think like that, we are doomed forever.
Enjoy the music.
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