"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch.
For the "Thread Troll" is among us, and his slithy tongue does gyre and gimble in the wabe. All mimsy were the borogoves, and the mome raths outgrabe.
A troll is a person who sows discord on a thread by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into arguments, and disarray.
The "Troll" who wanders on this thread is easily identifiable. I will choose to regard him as "The Invisible man" henceforth.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I want you to check this and check it thoroughly; me, Alex, Jazz, and even Frogman posted music that's only different in degrees, and the music I posted is "bland and tasteless". Get back to me on that.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I got news for you, Space Flight Sam Lazar done went down to $43. and change; still too rich for my blood.
As a Miriam Makeba "Connoisseur" (I still can not spell that word) I have been enjoying this new CD so much that I'm just getting around to installing it on the play list. Replacing an old scratchy record with a brand new CD is so rewarding; especially when it's a long sought after record.
Thanks to you, I have expanded my collection significantly, and I hope you have done likewise. If you run across something I might not have, please post it.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, that was a marvelous post except for the last sentence; have you ever seen a pit bull in a dog fight, if there are two of them, one of them will have to get buried. Fortunately we are a long ways apart, so that can't happen, but it will stop when it stops.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, things are a changing; those out of print LP's that you had to pay an arm and two legs for, if you could find them, are now on CD's for $13. bucks.
Just go shopping on "you tube", and get back to me on Wardell, and Stitt to see if you like anything. The last time we checked there was a problem with recording quality; they can clean that up.
Wardell Gray had something special on slow ballads, while his "hooting and tooting" in the style of Bird was the most popular.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, while people are producing good music today, more and more, I tend to prefer the past; especially when I can go on you tube and see more and more of it available.
Many times I mentioned the Chicago "South Side" of my youth where I heard so much of this fantastic music, and some of the people making the music even lived and performed within blocks of where I lived.
There is no way anyone will believe what the South Side of Chicago was like when I lived there, compared to what's there now. What anyone else believes is moot, as long as I can get into this music and go back to that time.
My cousin had a lot of "Wardell Gray", and Sonny Stitt, that I've been trying to find forever, now I just saw it on "you tube", maybe it's on CD; I'll have to check that. I'll never forget, Wardell was on a red LP that you could see through, that made it easy to find.
Music is my time machine, I can get in it and go back to better days.
Enjoy the music.
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While I don't have Rok's same appreciation for the "traditional" such as "Nawlins" jazz, I share his appreciation for the "classic" jazz musicians. And that came about since this thread, which means before this thread, I was in constant search for something "new".
"You Tube" has exposed how much "classic" jazz that's not in my collection, and technology has been able to improve the recording of those records. Now I have a choice of going forward, or remaining stationary in regard to time. (meaning records).
"You Tube" has also exposed the fact that some of those musicians were so advanced, that their most advanced music didn't sell, and went out of print. (meaning they quit making those records, but still have the tapes) With such a wide range of choices, and the ability to go back in time, I can review this wealth of "new old" music and decide how to use my limited resources in both time and money. Presently, the "new old" music is keeping me in my listening room a whole lot more.
Enjoy the music.
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Do you think, for one minute, that Bird and Trane didn’t "cultivate" their individuality? Every player sets out to find his/her voice and does so through a combination of inspiration and the hard work of trying new things; everything from developing harmonic concepts in their playing to trying fifty different saxophone mouthpieces to get the tone that they hear for themselves in their head. Bottom line:
Although the above is true, it contains in it, the inherent belief that any musician who did these things could be as good as "Trane" Miles or "Bird"; that's not true. Regardless what you do, if you were not given at birth, whatever differentiates those musicians from the rest of us, you can only be a good sideman, or mediocre leader.
"You can be what you want to be"; that's true only to a certain extent; we are talking about famous jazz musicians who were the best; you can only be the best if you were given something at birth, that for lack of a better word is called "talent".
Within them, the very best jazz musicians know that they have something that's so exclusive, that very few will be able to duplicate what they can do, and are doing; they know this even if they are at the bottom financially. While that doesn't suffice for "In God We Trust" in the pockets, it's what keeps those musicians who are not financially successful, going on another day. Read what Miles had to say about "Bird" to verify that.
In regard to "individuality"; that is something musicians "discover" while in the process of becoming a good musician.
Enjoy the music.
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Apparently Acman, your listening, and hearing is like Miles playing, "very advanced".
I listened to them again, and found the sound agreeable, just not enough to put money on, but I'm still listening.
Now that I'm looking and listening, I can see how enjoyable watching them on a live set could be. I went back to my first evaluation to see how, or if my thoughts on them had changed, and it has; for the better.
Enjoy the music.
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I get a good feeling when I can see ways musicians can get their best efforts in front of the people without being exploited in the process. Now a musician can make a CD and sell it at a live performance, and get it on "you tube"; all they need is for the people to hear what they can do, and rest will take care of itself.
Enjoy the music.
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If someone who was trying to communicate with me, they could be highly educated, but only spoke French; we would not be able to communicate because I don't speak French.
If someone was trying to communicate with me, but only spoke "music", we would have great difficulty communicating, because I never took music. Although this thread is about music, I never learned how to make music; that's why I initiated posting "links" of the music you are trying to communicate.
No matter how well a person is able to communicate in the language of music, I can't understand that language; consequently, he might as well be speaking French. While a long post in this language would be most impressive to another musician, I don't speak the language.
When describing music, a link, along with a description of how this music affects you is quite sufficient.
This post is for "The Newbee" ; post can be read below.
"When you say 'like' or 'dislike' it is a personal statement whether you choose to amplify it or not. When you say 'good' or 'bad' it suggests that this categorization has more of a universal application to the music absent your personal enjoyment or lack thereof, and most folks would expect you to amplify on how you reached that conclusion".
I can only assume, he meant expand in the colorful language of music, which I can't speak. If he meant to expand in ordinary English; that's the purpose of the musical link.
Acman is a man of few words, but since this is a thread about music, the link he posts is quite sufficient.
Anyone who is versed in the language of music, can contribute long posts in that language; many aficionados enjoy reading it, and there may be two musicians here who both read, and speak the language. While I enjoy reading such posts, I hope no one expects me to write one; I don't think there is anything more descriptive than a musical link.
Enjoy the music.
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One thing for certain, there's a different twist on records from across the waters. These cuts are "laid back"; I like laid back, and relaxed, no body is trying to "show boat"; they're just digging into the music.
Records from Japan are just the opposite; I'm talking about the same artists. They know that in Japan, they like "showboating". When in Japan you got to give the Japanese what they like, etc.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, I wouldn't jump to get any unissued records by anybody; it's almost always something I could quite easily live without.
How many albums have you heard by Betty Carter? Why don't you see what Dee Dee has to say about Betty Carter? Do You get my drift?
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Rok, I'm going through my most "exquisite" records and posting them. This was only on record not long ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx1GYIRq1XcWhen I say exquisite, I'm also including recording quality. I hope this is on CD. Trying to find some of my records on CD is a real job because when you inquire they tell you about every thing they got on CD by that artist, instead of saying "I ain't got it". Carmen McRae recorded for a long time, and I only want the best. Just like Miriam Makeba, the most popular isn't always the best; but that's why I'm an "aficionado", I can separate the best from the rest. I was listening to records on reel, and noticed they were kind of bland; that's when I realized I had recorded those records before I got a much better cartridge; now I'm going to re-record those exact same records again. It ain't easy being an "Audiophile", but the computer makes it a lot easier because I put those records on the play list with the new cartridge, now I'll make a play list of those records and relax while I watch the red recording light. I'll list those records, and you can check and see if they're on CD. Enjoy the music. |
OK Rok, here's the list, you have the first one: "Moanin", next, Carmen McRae, I just have cuts listed, could be off of different records. "The Shadow of Your Smile", "And I Love Him", plus "Yesterdays"
Chico Freeman, "Kings Of Mali", Chico Hamilton "Headhunters" Chico Hamilton "Peregrinations"; those are complete LP's
Last is Roland Kirk, "Theme For The Eulipions" that's what I have listed, it's just a cut off an LP, if it's on CD, I'm sure you have it.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, that is as "authentic" as it gets; I can see a little white church with a steeple in the middle of grass, not far from the woods. It might have even been the same church Bill Withers went to with Grandma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxjNauWYFfcEnjoy the music. |
Rok, you do that all the time; you hear one or two bad albums by an artist, and you say she or he is not my favorite; like those one or two bad albums determine that artists life work.
She made that album when she was over the hill and on her way out, but you judge her by that album. I either took that CD back or sold it. As of this moment, your aficionado badge has been pulled.
Enjoy the music.
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Sorry Alex, the bottom of that last post was meant for Rok.
What did you think of that offer?
Enjoy the music.
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Although I'm a Carmen McRae fan, I don't like everything by her. I always pick out the best leave the rest, and then I record the best, she is on the reel, and sounds ever so good.
I think you have to be in the mood for Betty Carter, and I admit I haven't been in that mood too much lately either.
I've got a "computer geek" who made my play list sound as good as a reel to reel, and that's pretty good. Sometime ago, Stereophile wrote about computers every month; what cards to buy etc, and I followed it religiously, now the playlist is so good, I don't really need a reel to reel.
I had the impression that you were quick to judge, but you've got more albums by Betty Carter than I have. I'm not sure that I've got any CD's by Carmen, that lets you know that I was buying her a lot sometime ago.
The key to getting the most out of your collection is to organize your play list so that you have a smile on your face the whole time your listening, and to make sure that it sounds as good as reel to reel.
Actually I meant play lists (plural) one for what ever mood you're in that day.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I was just looking through my LP's and ran across that. I haven't heard it in so long that I was as impressed as you. It's not on the computer, my analog rig is down; so that means I'll have to do the same thing as you, meaning buy the CD.
No way I would buy that Wardell Gray CD. When stuff like that doesn't sell, they straighten up and fly right.
I like slow ballads by Wardell, let me know if you run across any; he was like Lester Young, but different.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I looked at that CD, it's the one with the ballads like "Easy Livin", but I could live without 3 takes on it. We passed on Wardell once before because of recording quality, and I believe they cleaned that up; maybe they're going to get better in stages; we'll wait and see. In the meantime we'll be discovering a lot of other good stuff.
Enjoy the music.
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I'll second that motion on "Bird", and I'm a "Bird" fan from way back. Since I found a record that scored a home run by looking through the vinyl, I decided to do the same thing today, and I found a very interesting record; double down on the "interesting". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUeATOK2Lw4Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I tried it without the music, and it wasn't too bad. Some things never change.
Enjoy the music.
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This is not a music school, this is not a musical appreciation class; this is a musical listening room for "Jazz Aficionados", and the most important requirement is to;
Enjoy the music.
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Jafant, I've got the soundtracks to all those movies on records; Tuco is my man.
Enjoy the music.
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Who could ever forget "Mission Impossible" and Peter Gunn. I have "Paris Texas"; that's the loneliest, most desolate sounding music I ever heard. Is the town anything like the music? I've got that on a 2 CD album by the Cooder man. Lalo Schifrin did so many sound tracks we could be here all night going through them; and there was not one that I didn't like. Here's "Thriller Jazz" featuring Lalo, Quincy Jones and Jimmy Smith; you know it's got to be killer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eoqfVYwVf8Enjoy the music. |
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Frogman, I'll find the links to all the movies you listed, and give them a listen, including "Chico Hamilton".
Jafant, one of my favorites by Chico is "The Head Hunters", but unfortunately it's not on CD.
Chico Hamilton - drums
Steve Potts - alto saxophone
Russ Andrews - tenor saxophone
Robert Ashton - baritone saxophone
Ray Nance - violin
Eric Gale - guitar
Jan Arnet - bass
Ray Nance who is not as well known on violin as he is on trumpet, smokes the violin on this outing.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, I have no idea how that relationship works, but the "Third Man" has been one of my favorite soundtracks since I saw the movie when I was a child. As a matter of fact, I was too young to follow or understand the movie, but I always remembered the music. Now it is my favorite movie.
"High Noon" is the most unforgettable movie and theme. "Zorba The Greek" is another theme that sticks in the mind.
I saw "The Warriors" more than once but hadn't thought about the music. I guess the music is so well interwoven with the movie, that I never even thought about the music, but now I'll listen to the music separately.
As Frogman stated, that was a fantastic post.
Enjoy the music.
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Although I've mentioned this before, I don't believe I communicated how extreme the relationship between movie and music was. I heard this music in 1960, but did not see the movie until say 2010; to make the math easy, it is a difference of 50 years. When I heard the music, I didn't think too much of it, but now I realize how devastating it is. Fortunately, I can provide a link of the movie with the music, and you can decide, and see how intrinsically they are wound together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc4tT-55ZzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icJw9HXXoXAEnjoy the music. |
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It seems that I missed the film score of "On Green Dolphin Street", but it was an old movie and in my opinion was subdued, and although it's the original, you didn't miss much, but that doesn't change the fact that the composition is the original.
Rok, those are fantastic cuts by Mr. Erroll Garner who could not read music. There are other jazz musicians who could really jam, but could not read music. In no way am I implying that a musician can play jazz better, if he can not read music. Reading music usually requires school, and school requires money.
Not reading music isn't a brag, just a fact.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, that was an unforgettable movie, and I was shooting pool at that time; unfortunately, I was not the hustler, but the one who got hustled. The soundtrack was awesome.
Charlie Chaplins speech was the greatest ever made, but also one that will never be fulfilled because of the greed and lust for money.
Enjoy the music.
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Apparently we have ran out of jazz movie soundtracks. Since I believe we can walk and chew gum at the same time, let's go with "jazz" soundtracks, and any jazz that comes to mind. Although I can't play any LP's at the moment, since I discovered one that had not been posted, I decided to look through the vinyl again, and look what I found; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU3KI3L2t4g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4RZi7j2wMoEnjoy the music. |
Acman, I clicked on that link three times before I realized what was happening. That's what I do when I get bored and no one is responding; maybe the next time I'll change to "hillbilly" just to see if anyone is out there.
In response to the movie, there is no way I'll even attempt to watch a faded out movie like that.
"Pueblo" required a lot of listening; I thought it was repetitive, and at the same time I was trying to connect it with the Pueblo Native Americans. (almost used that word "Indians") I'm sure it would work in a movie.
Enjoy the music.
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"Christine" had the best soundtrack ever, for anybody who can remember sitting in the back seat with a "Little Bitty Pretty One" or pledging your love to the girl of your dreams. My uncle had a brand new 58 Fury like "Christine" that my cousin drove so fast, 120 at least, that we traveled 120 miles in less than 1 hour. I can tell you, those fins work like the fins on an airplane; I went to sleep as soon as I got in the car (had been up all night) and woke up with the wind whistling like crazy, but the car was as steady as standing still. I peeped at the speedometer, and decided; "If any thing happens, I'll never know it", and went back to sleep. The soundtrack to this movie, and that car, took you back to that time like nothing else; the car and the music was the star of the show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8WA5fqCB8g&list=PLJ3mgaOyNH5lELCtCARlQB-9Ow9J7nV4S&index=4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4rv3kMUBf4&index=9&list=PLJ3mgaOyNH5lELCtCARlQB-9Ow9J7nV4S https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuvGP2_RQ50&index=8&list=PLJ3mgaOyNH5lELCtCARlQB-9Ow9J7nV4SNo girls were ever as pretty as the one's in high school. Enjoy the music. |
The greatest jazz movie that's ever been made is "Round Midnight", starring "Dexter Gordon". Not only is this the greatest jazz movie that's ever been made, it's probably the greatest jazz movie that ever will be made, along with the greatest soundtrack. I know you ask; "How can I say such things about a movie"? But if you have to ask that question, you are not an "Aficionado", because all aficionados were talking about this movie for months after it came out. Those who Knew Dexter Gordon personally, said all he had to do was appear in front of the camera as himself, there was no acting, that was "Dexter Gordon". The movie is about Dale Turner, a famous tenor saxophone player in Paris in the 1950s is befriended by Francis, a struggling French graphic designer specializing in film posters, who idolizes the musician and who tries desperately to help him to escape alcohol abuse. As he succeeds, the budding friendship they develop changes their lives forever. The director, Bertrand Tavernier, defied the movie studio by insisting that real-life jazz tenor saxophonist Dexter Gordon play the role of Turner. Gordon, who himself played with Bud Powell in Paris in the early 1960s, helped to revise and rewrite the script. (The story is loosely based on "Bud Powell" in Paris) The supporting cast is likewise composed of jazz musicians such as Herbie Hancock, Bobby Hutcherson, John McLaughlin, and Wayne Shorter. The soundtrack comes in two records: "Round Midnight" and "The Other Side of Round Midnight" – released under Dexter Gordon's name and featuring his last recordings, although he does not appear on all tracks. Both albums were produced and arranged by Herbie Hancock. Naturally I have both CD's, and I enjoy them thoroughly. The first, "Round Midnight", is one of the best CD's in my collection. Herbie Hancock – piano Ron Carter: bass Tony Williams – drums Bobby McFerrin – vocal Dexter Gordon – tenor saxophone Pierre Michelot – bass Billy Higgins – drums John McLaughlin – guitar Chet Baker – vocal & trumpet Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone Bobby Hutcherson – vibes Lonette McKee – vocal Freddie Hubbard – trumpet Cedar Walton – piano Here are some links; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UazdjAWMocY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4nVDKeVxokEnjoy the music. |
Frogman, according to "Aficionados", Dexter Gordon puts this movies over the top by simply being himself, without acting; in addition to a fantastic jazz track that was sufficient for two records, plus the musicians were the greatest.
While a top actor, and a good script, could make a fantastic jazz movie for the movie going audience; Dexter Gordon signed, sealed, and delivered it for aficionados. That's because they saw a "real" jazz musician, with the idiosyncrasies of a working jazz musician. This is a jazz aficionados movie if there ever was one.
As you stated, "Too many considerations and different points of view as to what a "jazz movie" should be to give it such an exclusive ranking." My ranking was based totally on the music and the musicians who are so very outstanding; "Herby Hancock" is transcendental, and I use that word in the sense that he has been an accomplished performer in so many different genres of jazz, and his stamp is all over the place in that movie.
"Bobby McFerrin", is incredible, but I can understand your comparison to him and a horn; while I think he does the impossible, I'm not a horn player.
As far as considerations and points of view, if one simply compares jazz movies, and doesn't put so much emphasis on the music; "Paris Blues" was a better movie, and it dealt with the same subject "Expatriates".
"Miles Davis" is an "Enigma"; while I never met the man, some of the people in his autobiography are related to me, and they were his best friends. The Miles they knew, has no relation to the Miles the public has been presented. Just like his music, it's all about "which" Miles are you speaking of? That was an impossible movie to make.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I had forgotten about that one; from an acting point of view, I don't think it will ever be beat. Like you said "Jamie Foxx's portrayal of "Ray" is incredible".
That movie was fantastic from beginning to end; Ray Charles, like all other blues musicians, began in the "Juke Joints", and those places in the movie were so authentic, that I could smell the beer, wine and whisky.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, acting-imitating, Jamie Fox-Ray Charles, is in a "phase-loc-loop" going nowhere fast. I suggest you pick out a jazz move for us to look at and review; you have a long list to choose from.
Enjoy the music.
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