Frogman, if you took no pleasure in prefacing your comment the way you did, then why did you preface it that way? I merely asked you to compare the drumming, you Frogman are the one who delights in this antagonistic dialog, because if you didn't, you would not start it, for example; this is the way you responded to Rok,s very reasonable statement. "Sorry, way off base. If you care to have reasonable and intelligent dialogue about this subject let me know." And when I presented solid proof that you were wrong about Rok's statement, you never even responded, do you expect me to overlook that? I'm sure Rok is still waiting for a response, I know I am. In case you have forgotten, this was Rok's statement: ****I think it’s possible, in the middle of playing improvised music, to play a few notes that have been played before in the same order in another popular tune. Intention would depend on the length of the passage played. A few notes might be an unintentional, subconscious ’quote’, too many notes, and you are playing Mona Lisa.**** Rok's very reasoned statement was presented in concrete form in regard to Charlie Parker's tune, "Now's The Time" and "Doing the Hucklebuck". I'll give you the opportunity of ignoring it again. Below is Bird's tune. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryNtmkfeJk4Now we have "Doing The Hucklebuck"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X9lOWg7fNMThis time it's done by Frank Sinatra; maybe that will help you to respond. I get a kick out of your responses that say; "I can do it to you, but you can't do it to me"; wanna bet. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, if you are going to correct someone, you had better get your facts straight; especially if that someone is "Orpheus". The "Forest Flower" I presented was the one with "The Chico Hamilton Quintet"; a photograph of the players is on the cover of the album: Chico Hamilton is striding across the cover, and Buddy Collette is kneeling with his horns in front of him, while Jim Hall, has his guitar on his knee; that's just the top row of photographs, the rest of the players are in the second row. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF_Kwdmg1CgHere it is again, for your pleasure; this time, check the photo's on the album cover. Enjoy the music. |
Now that you have seen one side of my personality, I would like to show the other side; there is nothing I like more than sharing my favorite tunes with you, and I guarantee they are killers. Here is John Coltrane with "Nature Boy". I know you've heard this standard by many artists many times, but until you've heard JC play it, you ain't heard nothing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GozbmI5-6ZoJohn Coltrane – tenor saxophone and soprano saxophone McCoy Tyner – piano Jimmy Garrison – double bass Art Davis – double bass Elvin Jones – drums This is "Trane", live; and there is a wide gulf between JC recording on a studio session and "live". What you hear on this recording, is what you would have heard if you had been on the set; maybe even longer. Enjoy the music. |
No Frogman, we can not stop; not until you respond to the discussion between you and Rok.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I must compliment you on your resourcefulness; I have that very same CD, it was released in 64, and that was when I met the love of my life.
We used to meet at a small dimly lit lounge, and we both fell in love with "Forest Flower"; it was on the juke box and we played it over and over. Since that time, I always think of her when I hear "Forest Flower".
As you know, when one is a connoisseur of the very best jazz, it should be in one's collection if it falls into that category; after all, that's what this thread is about.
Enjoy the music.
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Well Frogman, it seems that you can go on and on like that great "Energizer Bunny". Anytime someone disagrees with you, they are starting an argument.
I've been down this road with you before, but now I have learned that one must have the patience of "Job"; dealing with you has given me that patience.
To refresh your memory; the incident in question, posed "Now Is The Time" by "Bird", and "Doing The Hucklebuck" by anyone. Since this comparison gives such wide latitude, it's very easy for you to respond, but you wont because that would bring your "Omnipotents" into question.
As I stated previously, I'll quit this line of dialog after you have responded to that conversation, but not until.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, waiting for Frogman to change is like waiting for a leopard to change his spots or for hades to freeze over; consequently, I don't think I've got that long to live. I'm going on vacation, and you can keep an eye on him till I get back.
Enjoy the music.
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In case anyone thinks I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, they can go back through the posts on this thread and see how many times Frogman has acknowledged any mistake that he's made. He can chide someone else for making an error, even when that error may not involve the substance of the dispute. Just recently he derided me for quoting a wrong "you tube", although that still didn't get to the substance of the post, which was the drumming, plus it was an entirely different group on my post; that was the substance of my post, but he failed to acknowledge it. As Rok put it, that is his "Modus Operandi". Since I'm in a "Trane" mood I'm going to go with one of my most favorite tunes "Invitation". Let's try the vocal by Dinah Washington, followed by Trane. This show must go on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyp1yvSBq5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8eYVN8hAlUEnjoy the music. |
Frogman, why don't you just write my posts for me? Why is it that no one misinterprets every word I write like you? |
“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: all your Piety or Wit Shall not lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor will all your Tears wash out a Word of it.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kxuAZictJ4"The Rubaiyat of Dorothy Ashby" might be her greatest moment, I certainly know it has been my most listened to record. The words are so true, and everybody who has participated on this thread has been subjected to "The Moving Finger", for they have left a record that can not be altered; that is the way of The Moving Finger. Frogman's record is right here for everyone to see; while it began very good, somewhere along the way he was seduced by "The Imp of The Perverse", and became hostile; first it was Rok, and later on me. I mentioned something I observed in the Summer of 69, when a jazz musician who was a friend of mine, lived in my apartment; this was in regard to his practice habits which were nonexistent for that summer, although he performed professionally, three times a week. It meant zit to me whether he practiced or didn't practice, but Frogman, and Learsfool went on and on telling me how necessary it is to practice. Why did they go on and on about practicing, as if I was an advocate of not practicing. Although what they were talking about had absolutely nothing to do with me personally, they went on and on like two great "Energizer Bunnies" as though I was an advocate of not practicing, and they were so convincing, that they gathered more "Energizer Bunnies" along the way who went on and on; now I got a whole troupe, or tribe of them coming after me daily. The musician under discussion died in 71. He was not in good health the last time I saw him, and none of his "new" music was recorded; consequently, since I couldn't prove anything in regard to this music, revealing his name was pointless; but that didn't stop them from going on and on, recruiting new "Energizer Bunnies" along the way telling me how essential practice is, when they all should have gone to where he was buried and preached to him; he was the one who didn't practice. As silly as this was, there were no mirrors available for them to see it. After that, it became something about learning music. I don't know A-flat from B-flat, and not only that, I don't want to know. As an "Aficionado" of jazz records, knowing how to make music is not on my resume. I stated that they (Learsfool and Frogman) were free to teach, and those who wanted to learn were free to learn; but that wasn't good enough, I had to learn. None of those long diatribes had any thing to do with the music from an "Aficionado's" point of view in regard to collecting the best jazz records. Here again they collected new "Energizer Bunnies", all of them telling me that I should be eager to learn whatever Frogman and Learsfool were trying to teach. Can you imagine a whole flock of "Energizer Bunnies" deriding me for not wanting to learn, when nobody knew exactly what it was that I was supposed to learn, or they were trying to teach. Check Frogman's long diatribe on 03-10-2016 9:11 PM page 108,and tell me what that's about? That is followed by "Leersfool's" comment: "I am merely trying to correct a few of your most obvious misperceptions. I know you do not care about this, but it is not about you - it is for others that read this thread and who are interested in how music and musicians really work, of which there are clearly plenty." Frogman and Learsfool attached so many perceptions and misperceptions to me, that it wasn't even funny; when they got through with all those long diatribes about who I was, I had to look in the mirror to make sure I had not changed to the person they said I was. You can read on pages 107 and 108 how rediculous and absurd they became; especially when you consider what this thread was initially about; it's spelled out at the top of each page. This thread began in 2013, and went along just fine until Frogman and Learsfool thought it should encompass learning music, that was just fine with me, but I have learned all the music I want to know, and it beats the heck out of me why that's not good enough for them, even when they can teach anybody else who wants to learn. Their new "Energizer Bunnies" went on to state they didn't understand why Frogman and Learsfool should continue wasting their time trying to teach me. Whatever they were trying to teach, I didn't even ask to be taught in the first place. (How absurd can you get?) Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, in Re. to 4-28-2016, 11:21 PM, I asked an open question to any "Professional musician" who might know the answer; and what did you do; right off the bat you nullified the question, invented another scenario and never answered my honest question, even though you went through one of your usual long diatribes. (Page 121)
I had to answer my own question, which I did.
Once "the Moving Finger" write's, it's got you.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I got a better idea for you, Learsfool, Acman, and Jzzmusician; START YOUR OWN THREAD. Now let me see your tact after that; but at any rate be sure to.
Enjoy the music.
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Jazz, that was a very thoughtful post, and I concur with it 100%. Not even the very best jazz musicians agreed on what is, or is not jazz; who is some "johnny come lately" to tell us what is, or is not jazz? There has been, and there always will be disagreement on the answer to that question; however, when one person has too much influence over the answer, it even affects the music.
Rok, you were so right; every Thread needs an OP to discern the intentions and meaning of a thread; by allowing too much latitude, "I" let this thread get out of hand. As long as it stayed within "logical" parameters, it bounced along just fine, even with disagreements.
I think we all have enough sense to know what is, and what is not "out of bounds"; how ever if any "Aficionado" doesn't know, I will be on him like stink on s--t,
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, as usual, a very good musical contribution; no one can complain about this one, it's solid "in the pocket" good classic jazz, and up to date.
Enjoy the music.
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Jazz, I would like very much to hear some of the music your daughter brought home.
When it comes to music, I'm the wild one on this thread; I have music recorded in Australia, hundreds of years ago; you can hear the insects along with the "Didgeridoo" and the clicking sticks, as the Aborigines do their ceremonial dance.
Every now and then, I will find something close to what I have on "you tube" and present it. Nothing you have is too far out for us; if nothing else, it will be good for a laugh.
Enjoy the music.
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From the beginning this thread has had wide boundaries, that won't change. When an "Aficionado" gets completely out of those boundaries, as the OP, it's up to me to let them know about it; their options have already been spelled out. Since "They" know who they are, they don't have to stay gone; all is forgotten and forgiven, we don't even have to talk about the past; however ......................
This "Thread" has gone on for a very long time, we should all be well acquainted by now; meaning there is very little chance of misinterpretation; I don't say one thing and mean another, and by now I think we know where everyone is coming from. Ghosthouse, I know as soon as there is friction, you head for the door; that's a good policy, you'll live a long life, but don't stay gone.
Enjoy the music.
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And another thing, the truth ain't in you;
(Btw, sometime later you yourself posted “Forrest Flower” claiming it was Buddy Collette on tenor; but that’s a different story).
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Alex I don't believe Newbee has ever posted anything constructive on this thread, he only drops in when there's a "Bruha" and says the same thing; you can look up his posts if you like.
When there is any conflict on this thread, you can always count on dear old "Newbee" to make it worse.
In regard to your question, the answer is quite simple; we are the only "Jazz Aficionados" on this forum, the rest are "Newbees"
Enjoy the music.
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Ken, as long as you know what you like, that's all that counts.
"Winter Moon" even sounds like Art Pepper, dark and brooding. Although I never met the man or saw him live, I felt that I knew him, that's because of his very revealing autobiography.
It's easy to see how you could get so absorbed in Art Pepper; I've been into jazz all my life, and this is a first for me in regard to this side of Art Pepper. This proves a person doesn't have to go to the latest music in order to find something new.
Enjoy the music.
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Thank you Acman for posting "Winter Moon"; this is the link to "The Prisoner" that we didn't post before.
om/watch?v=5utT5yiQAOo
It's a continuation of the side of Art Pepper I do not have in my collection.
Enjoy the music.
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An artist like "Art Pepper" has as many facets as a diamond; consequently we can not get into all of them at the same time, that means we have to come back to the facets we missed. When he was alive and doing his thing, I was doing mine; now that I am old, and his thing is all I have to do, I can catch up on what he was doing, and what his thing was about. From spending time in LA when Art was doing his thing, I know there are fantastic musicians out there I heard at clubs, but never heard of before or since; that's in regard to the people he recorded with on his many different albums that I know nothing about. Great jazz musicians are deep individuals, and we don't know them even when, or if one is close to such a musician; but thankfully they left their music behind. That last link didn't work, maybe this one will. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtRNxePV5VsEnjoy the music. |
Frogman, I'm glad you're back. I'm going to give each one of your links a thorough listening, and get back to you with my review.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, that clip you posted of "Summertime" was so fantastic that I played it over and over; the girl singing was exquisitely beautiful. I discovered the "exquisitely" beautiful voice did not belong to the lady singing, but you can't have everything.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, I was able to sample her CD "Do Right" with Houston Person and others, and I liked it. In addition to "You Tube", if she could get WSIE Radio 88.7 FM to play her CD's, that would certainly help to give her more exposure.
These artists don't have to have a record company anymore, and that will certainly help their bottom line. Rap Artists are driving Lamborghini's and living in Beverly Hills, and I'm talking about the one's I don't even know anything about; what I'm saying is that when you make and market your own product, you can count your own money, and that's what these new artists are doing.
Sari Kessler will make it big I'm sure; she's got some of the best people with her and she's going to "Do Right".
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, after that write up, wild horses couldn't stop me from listening to this album all the way through. Without a doubt, it is one of the best vocal jazz albums ever. In addition to all that you mentioned, I like the fact that she writes her own material. Some other vocalists with fantastic voices should take note of that; especially those who scat inappropriately on certain standards.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, you're the only Aficionado who has consistently posted new music, and I regret I haven't reviewed it all, but I intend to rectify that.
Brian Bromberg plays good solid straight ahead jazz of a very high caliber; it's the kind of music demanding Aficionados like Frogman, Rok, and Alex can appreciate. I'm hoping that Frogman can give us a review from a professional jazz musician's point of view.
According to "Wiki", Brian Bromberg (born December 5, 1960, in Tucson, Arizona) is an American jazz bassist and record producer who performs on both electric and acoustic instruments. He has a varied resume when it comes to types of jazz (the man sounds like a survivor to me) This album "Full Circle" is boss, I'm still listening to it, and it's just keeps getting better.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, as good as Herb Ellis is, I heard him so much as a sideman, that I had forgotten how good he is in his laid back kind of way that's ideal for West Coast jazz.
His thanks to Charlie Christian reminded me that as much as I've read about Charlie Christian, I haven't heard him enough.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I had almost forgotten how good that generation of jazz sounded; they played like they were born speaking the language of jazz. It's no wonder why all those musicians are revered. Thanks for a most appreciated contribution.
Enjoy the music.
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Jazz, when I compared all of our musical posts, it amazed me how competitive your's was without one professional musician, or expensive instrument.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, people may not believe this, or accept it as truth, but music is a reflection of everything that's going on around the musicians. While this is my perception, I would not debate it with anyone who thought otherwise because it's far too broad. When I was listening to Roy Eldridge "Little Jazz" on trumpet, I could see men and ladies on a ballroom floor in their best attire, dancing to that kind of music. Although this scene was from a movie, because I was too young to be on any dance floor at that time, I can still visualize it. I began jazz with Bird, Diz, and Miles, and it's just recently that I'm going back to swing, thanks to you. Here's something that Acman posted, which is classic jazz in the same vein as what you and Alex posted, but it's relatively new, which means there are musicians still putting out some good "classic jazz". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw7qbNZ0iVoEnjoy the music. |
Rok, "Full Circle" wasn't missing anything according to my ears. Here are the players:
"Full Circle" features Bromberg on upright bass, piccolo bass (a bass guitar tuned to the register of a guitar), and drums--his first album to play drums on. He is joined by trumpeter Arturo Sandoval, pianists Randy Waldman and Mitch Forman, sax players Doug Webb and Bob Sheppard, percussionist Alex Acuna, vibe man Craig Fundyga, and many other fine players".
Although I've never heard the sax players, they are smoking. This album even included a tune titled "Nawlins"; maybe you should listen to the whole album.
I think these guys are well versed in the "classic" language of jazz; although it's new, it's more retro than in the genre of "new jazz".
Since Frogman is the professional musician, maybe he could come in and put his perspective on "Full Circle"
Enjoy the music.
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"He likes to go barefooted". I know what you mean about "Nana", he sounds good with other people, but not too hot by himself.
I just thought of another big reason the jazz you posted sounds so much better, I always heard it on old scratchy records, and I don't care how good the music is, a little of that can go too far for me.
post some more of your favorite music in that genre.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, you have been very consistant with new jazz, but this last "Danny Green Trio"; misses me, sometime it sounds like people playing different tunes, maybe it's my headphones, Give me your take on it.
It's for sure that I can't be counted on for "New Jazz"; I have to fish around in the old stuff or jump genres. I'm not going to post anything that I wont add to my collection, that would be dishonest. It seems that someone has gone on vacation, we're not getting much action, or is this my imagination; a response would be appreciated by you and Rok.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I've been listening to a CD that was a very expensive record just a short time ago, if you could get it. This is a young Miriam Makeba with a sparkling voice.
If she had been recorded at this time, singing in the shower, I would buy it. Ladies can last a long time performing as superb vocalists, but there is such a short time when they have that "girlish sparkle". This is it.
Order ID: 104-3008068-4493012
Item: Miriam Makeba / World of Miriam Makeba
You will be more than delighted when you get this CD.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, not only am I into that clip, but Jesse Cook's music in general. What I don't understand about your statement is the fact that you have been most positive about Cuban music, and the title of that tune was "Havana"; it had the feel of Havana. I can picture a young Cuban girl, or couple dancing to that music in Havana.
You have raved about the Spanish influence of music in Cuba, but yet you find Jesse Cook bland, when he is presently the worlds leading exponent of the Spanish guitar, that totally befuddles me; that's a contradiction if there ever was one.
Are you saying the music of Cuba is pointless and bland.
Enjoy the music.
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I've often heard there are only two kinds of music "good and bad". Just who determines which is which? "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", seems to be a more appropriate statement to me.
Our minds are computers that contain a record of everything we have experienced in our entire life. How those computers respond to music depends on that composite record. If the music does nothing to elicit a pleasurable response, it's thumbs down on the music; consequently, our take on the music is determined by us, and not the music.
It's early in the day; that plays a part on how I respond to music. Unless the music is spectacular, it will get a negative response. When you add all these factors together, one can easily see that it's the individual and not the music that determines the rating.
Frogman, I hope that explains why I'm "neutral" to the music you've presented.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, Frogman amplified my point that it is us, and not the music that makes the determination in regard to whether or not the music is good or bad. Here is a record with some fascinating cuts that I like a lot; it is a two record set; consequently, you get your monies worth. While I don't like every cut, there are enough of them to make it a good buy. I'm not sure it's on CD, but you can check. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM13pdyn5JY&list=PLRRe_urOjL_9GmyMV5pavQEfGI9DaInE4Enjoy the music. |
I bought that album when it came out. That looks like a photograph of "North St. Louis", before it fell on hard times.
If I'm not mistaken, that's "fusion", I know I liked it, and listen to it still.
Enjoy the music.
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Newbee, you said the same thing I said, only you said it backwards.
Frogman You've got me so confused with "fusion", I done forgot what it is. It depends on who is using the word and whether or not you want to make a good or bad interpretation of the word; "That's what it means".
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, it was'nt just McCoy Tyner, it was McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones. What do "you" make of that, nevermind what others make of it.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, I know what Frogman said, and he knows what I said; it had nothing to do with "Sahara", and neither one of us are the least bit confused.
Enjoy the music.
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I can't for the life of me understand how the Jesse Cook clip can be felt to be anywhere near as "spectacular" (to use your definition) as any of the recent piano trio recordings. I wish I could say I was "neutral" to it. To my sensibilities it is bland, derivative and (almost) totally pointless music. Frogman, that statement is an indication of how bland and pointless your taste in music is; that's why I never liked it, but I didn't want to offend you. Since I am diametrically opposed to your taste in music you will understand why I don't like it. As I stated earlier: Our minds are computers that contain a record of everything we have experienced in our entire life. How those computers respond to music depends on that composite record. If the music does nothing to elicit a pleasurable response, it's thumbs down on the music; consequently, our take on the music is determined by us, and not the music. The things your computer has recorded are so different from mine, that what your computer considers spectacular, mine considers bland and tasteless; it all makes perfectly good sense now. I started with "Jesse Cook" this morning and he sounds better than ever. This is "La Rhumba D'el", it makes me wish I could dance; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnVa_rJiGm4let me tell you a little about Mr. Cook, He has recorded on the EMI, E1 Music and Narada labels and has sold over 1.5 million records worldwide. That means there are 1.5 million people who disagree with you. One of Cooks teachers was himself a student of the great maestro Andrés Segovia, and this is according to the man himself: "My strange way of playing guitar is a hybrid of styles. I was a classical guitarist as a kid, and I studied flamenco and then I studied jazz. So there are three musical and guitar traditions in my background. And one of the forms I use, rumba flamenco, is itself a hybrid created in the 1800s when sailors were coming back to Spain from Cuba, having heard these Cuban rhythms. And here I am, 150 years later, taking it and mixing it back with modern music and seeing where it takes me. Music is a constantly evolving thing. Frogman, your call on this man's music is not an indication of his music, but how poor your taste is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWjgyFvZ2OAHis music incorporates so many genres of music I like, that I might listen to it all day. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, if you never responded to anything I posted, it would certainly make my day; but you can't do that, can you?
As for "The Newbee", he is your replacement for "Learsfool"; who would say the Sun rises in the West, if I said it rose in the East. The only difference between me and you, is the fact I'm not making any attempt to put on some fake veneer of civility, I'm merely continuing what you started, and meeting it "head on".
It's quite apparent that none of your posts are sincere appraisals of the music, or anything else, but political in nature; meaning every single post you make, depends on who it is in response to, and it's for sure it will always be negative to anything I post, while it will be positive to someone you are currently in favor of.
Everyone can go through your posts and see the lack of consistency. For example; Newbee only posts to criticize me, he has only posted music one time, and you comment on Newbee's excellent post.
Frogman, your record speaks for itself.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, I think I have a few of her CD's, the one that comes to mind off hand is "Don't Smoke In Bed". I see her style has changed to more a "up beat" presentation, that's good.
Enjoy the music.
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Jazz, your post was right on time; although we have covered Cuban music in the past from top to bottom, we're back into it again.
That clip presented the African, Spanish soul of Cuban music, and I liked it a lot.
Enjoy the music.
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When you say 'like' or 'dislike' it is a personal statement whether you choose to amplify it or not. When you say 'good' or 'bad' it suggests that this categorization has more of a universal application to the music absent your personal enjoyment or lack thereof, and most folks would expect you to amplify on how you reached that conclusion.
"Newbee", I'm reading your statement, but I don't quite know what it is you're trying to say; could you give an example of what it was that I said, that you think I should amplify. BTW, Frogman thought that was a fantastic post; maybe if you "amplified", I would think so as well.
Enjoy the music.
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