Jazz for aficionados

I didn't know anyone here dug Me'Shell NdegeOcello; check this one;



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnJ8jXFzmJQ




Enjoy the music.

This is what I posted before the manure really hit the fan.


Let me repeat, "I still appreciate your musical wisdom, for those like Rok, and Acman who benefit from it".


We all know that you do not want to know anything about anything. What we don't know is why you are so ADAMANT about telling us this at every opportunity.

We get it.


  "Are you sure you get it"!?




Enjoy the music.

If everyone is sure we got it, whatever it is, then maybe I can continue doing what I was doing before my trolley jumped the tracks.

With everyone's permission, I would like to investigate Horace Silver's music, the same as I did with Donald Byrd; but I can't proceed until we are all in sync.



Enjoy the music.

Horace Taveres Silver had so many great compositions that some of them got little exposure; "The Outlaw" on the LP "Further Explorations" is almost unknown;


                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx4h_IXm5Pc


This was so vivid that you could visualize "Billy the Kid" riding hard across the South western Bad lands, just two steps in front of the posse that was in hot pursuit.

My favorite version of "Senor Blues" is a live one also. Here it is; he expands this tune on this date, like nowhere else, and I could listen to it all night.


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8jFGFwOm7k


This tune is my favorite by Silver; it was written in honor of Pannonica de Koenigswarter, who was a patron of many jazz artists at that time. She had more tunes written in her honor than anyone else I can think of.


                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDrxzKYdwsA


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lju13U1zEE


Since I couldn't decide which one of these I liked best, I pasted both of them, and now you can decide for me.





Enjoy the music.





                 

In regard to "Senor Blues", when I said *he expands this tune on this date, like nowhere else,****; I was referring to his piano solo beginning at 4:10, and going all the way to the end, when he was backing Blue Mitchell. The one at Newport wasn't as clear, there was noticeable distortion.

On the "Senor Blues" I pasted, I liked Junior Cook's and Blue Mitchell's solo's much better; as well as Mr. Silver's piano where he got into a special groove beginning at 4:10, all the way to the end where he was backing Blue Mitchell. Notice at 9:11 where he digs in and hammers the piano like a drummer.

Before, I couldn't decide, but now I've decided, and I definitely like the "Nica's Dream"  on the "Jazz Messengers" better. Silver was on piano, on both LP's; but Blakey's was "languid" meaning slow and relaxed; this was due to the slower pace, and I most certainly liked Donald Byrd's and Hank Mobley's solos better on that "Nica's Dream".

The interesting fact is, the composer was on both versions; he just decided to play slower with the "Jazz Messengers".

In regard to "Song For My Father", I didn't know we were through with Mr. Silver; especially after the detail and depth I covered "Donald Byrd," but you won't get any argument out of me, about "Song For My Father" being his best, I'm especially attached to that tune.

After Leon Thomas's Father's funeral, he sang that at a club, and it brought tears to my eyes because I knew his father, and I could see his smiling face.



                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSYwGEiowHg



Enjoy the music.



     

Frogman, the yodeling is a Leon Thomas signature thing. The only other yodeling I ever recall before him was that cowboy thing, and there certainly isn't any semblance between the two. Although I recall Rok making the same comment, I like it.

When he sounds like Joe Williams, which is how he sounded when he started with Count Basie, is what I like the least; it's too commercial for my taste.

In the comments section, most of the people stated they liked the yodeling. Someone said he was inspired by African Pigmies, but I don't know anything about that. Someone else said it was an acquired taste thing, but I liked it the first time I heard it; it definitely sets him apart from the crowd, and I think he should have focused on what set him apart from the crowd as opposed to just singing.

Since "Nica's Dream" is my favorite tune by Horace Silver, I liked both versions a lot, but the messengers with Donald Byrd and Hank Mobley was definitely my favorite.

I interpreted your statement as meaning we have covered all there is of significance by Horace Silver. Feel free to take us in any direction you choose.


Enjoy the music.

Frogman,  you consider the version headed by Silver better than the "Jazz Messenger's"" on "Nica's Dream"? I'm still trying to pick up Art Blakey's sloppy drumming that makes the messengers version of "Nica's Dream" sound sleepy. Maybe you could give me the time where I should listen.

No "silly bickering" I'm just trying to be a more astute listener; especially since you and Rok said I don't want to learn anything, and you're the master musician. Now on Leon Thomas's yodeling, a bit much this time, he took it to the point of distraction, you stated. I listened to it a second time and he began his signature yodeling at 1:30 and carries it to 2:38; now that's just over a minute, when the song is 5:21 long, and according to you, just over a minute is to the point of distraction.

I know how much you appreciate clarity in communications, and that's what I'm striving for. I also think you stated that Blue Mitchell's solo sounded better than Donald Byrd's solo in the same spot. As good as Blue Mitchell is, he's no Donald Byrd, and that's not a subjective evaluation, it comes under objective evaluation, as almost any jazz aficionado will tell you.




Enjoy the music.

The reason that tune by Silver and Harris is almost unknown, is because it in no ways compares with their best works.

There are many yardsticks by which a jazz musician is judged and Blue Mitchell doesn't measure up to Donald Byrd, in that solo, or in body of works.

The Jazz Messengers were an influential jazz combo that existed for over thirty-five years beginning in the early 1950s as a collective, and ending when long-time leader and founding drummer Art Blakey died in 1990. Blakey led or co-led the group from the outset. "Art Blakey" and "Jazz Messengers" became synonymous over the years, though Blakey did lead non-Messenger recording sessions and played as a sideman for other groups throughout his career.

The group evolved into a proving ground for young jazz talent. While veterans occasionally re-appeared in the group, by and large, each iteration of the Messengers included a lineup of new young players. Having the Messengers on one's resume was a rite of passage in the jazz world, and conveyed immediate bona fide.

How could the "Jazz Messengers" accomplish this if Art Blakey was such a sloppy lazy drummer? And you still haven't explained how Leon Thomas's just over a minute of yodeling was to the point of distraction.



Enjoy the music.

Frogman;

Let me repeat, "I still appreciate your musical wisdom, for those like Rok, and Acman who benefit from it".

That was my post on 04-02-2016 7:11pm.

This was Rok's post immediately following that post.
 
We all know that you do not want to know anything about anything. What we don't know is why you are so ADAMANT about telling us this at every opportunity.

We get it.

This was after my comment about Art Blakey; "Before or after the beat".

And you're still talking about Blakey's "Lazy sloppy drumming"


I think this will end after the swallows come back to Capistrano, or the cows come home; whichever is first.




Enjoy the music.

Re Thomas (again): with all due respect, you're grabbing at straws. I like Thomas and I have said so. I wonder how HE would have felt knowing that his yodeling was the only thing there was to like about his singing; according to O-10 of course. This is a ridiculous discussion.

Frogman, this is the most ridiculous statement you have made up until this date.

If you say you don't like Leon Thomas's yodeling for just over a minute, when yodeling is his signature thing; that would mean that you just don't like Leon Thomas; and that most certainly would come under the "subjective" heading, but to say you like Leon Thomas, but not his minutes worth of yodeling sounds insincere. Since you want you're statement to come under the "subjective" heading, just say you don't like Leon Thomas.


Enjoy the music.

Blue Mitchell was a very good trumpet player; but his record pales in comparison to Donald Byrd.


Mitchell was born and raised in Miami, Florida. He began playing trumpet in high school, where he acquired his nickname, Blue.

After high school he played in the rhythm and blues ensembles of Paul Williams, Earl Bostic, and Chuck Willis. After returning to Miami he was noticed by Cannonball Adderley, with whom he recorded for Riverside Records in New York in 1958.

He then joined the Horace Silver Quintet, playing with tenor saxophonist Junior Cook, bassist Gene Taylor and drummer Roy Brooks. Mitchell stayed with Silver's group until the band's break-up in 1964, after which he formed a group with members from the Silver quintet, substituting the young pianist Chick Corea for Silver and replacing Brooks, who had fallen ill, with drummer Al Foster. This group produced a number of records for Blue Note. It disbanded in 1969, after which Mitchell joined and toured with Ray Charles until 1971.

From 1971 to 1973 Mitchell performed with John Mayall, appearing on Jazz Blues Fusion and subsequent albums. From the mid-70s he recorded and worked as a session man in the genres noted previously, performed with the big band leaders Louie Bellson, Bill Holman and Bill Berry and was principal soloist for Tony Bennett and Lena Horne. Other band leaders Mitchell recorded with include Lou Donaldson, Grant Green, Philly Joe Jones, Jackie McLean, Hank Mobley, Johnny Griffin, Al Cohn, Dexter Gordon and Jimmy Smith. Blue Mitchell kept his hard-bop playing going with the Harold Land quintet up until his death from cancer on May 21, 1979, in Los Angeles, at the age of 49.

A lot of alto sax players are very good, until you compare them with Charles "yardbird" Parker; you get my drift.





Enjoy the music.

Frogman, almost this entire post came from "Wiki", does that make you feel better or meet your criteria?

03-29-2016 12:38am


Calling all aficionados: I'm trying to get organized on this "New music hunt". This time, we go through a musician phase by phase, evaluating each change as we go. Hopefully I have Donald Byrd in order so that we can go year by year, happy listening.
   
Donald Byrd: Low Life
From Fuego (Blue Note, 1959)

I could have started with a song far earlier in Byrd’s career but my point here is to establish his bop/post-bop certifiers with a spry, swinging tune that reminds me of Bobby Timmons best work.

Donald Byrd: Cristo Redentor
From A New Perspective (Blue Note, 1963)

Byrd + gospel choir = sublime. And cinematic, no? Couldn’t you imagine this in some spaghetti western where our hero walks atop a sand dune, the sun setting at his back? Have I been watching too many Leone films?

Also: best cover ever.

Donald Byrd: House of the Rising Sun
From Up With Donald Byrd (Verve, 1964)

The best known song off this album is probably the cover of Herbie Hancock’s “Cantaloupe Island” but thanks to US3, I can’t really bear to listen to it much. I do like this cover of “House of the Rising Sun” though. No only does it draw from the same choral backing that we heard on A New Perspective but you can begin to hear the hints of the coming soul-jazz movement. It’s the small, subtle things in the rhythm that you’ll hear even more so on…

Donald Byrd: Blackjack
From Blackjack (Blue Note, 1967)

And here we are. It’s not upside your dome funky but clearly, it’s working in that vein, especially with the hard hammer of Cedar Walton’s piano. But heck, let’s take it a step further and let the drummer get some.

Donald Byrd: Weasil
From Fancy Free (Blue Note, 1969)

The first thing that strikes you is that Duke Pearson is tickling the Rhodes on here, apparently the first time Byrd allowed an electric piano to roll in. Combine that with the more aggressive breakbeats by drummer Joe Chambers and “Weasil” belongs firmly in the soul-jazz era that’s since been enshrined through comps like Blue Break Beats and Jazz Dance Classics.

Donald Byrd: The Little Rasti
From Ethiopian Knights (Blue Note, 1972)

To me, Ethiopian Knights represents the deepest Byrd got into this era of the soul-jazz sound before moving more towards proto-disco fusion style. Nearly 18 minutes long, nothing “little” about this.

Donald Byrd: Where Are We Going?
From Black Byrd (Blue Note, 1972)

With this album, Byrd minted a smash and established himself as one of the masterminds of a sound that blended jazz, soul, funk and disco. Black Byrd was, in many ways, a total blueprint for the next five years, not just of Byrd’s career, but the direction of jazz and R&B as a whole. For me, I definitely hear some What’s Going On? elements at play but the sheer smoothness of the track also hints at what you’d hear with yacht rock by the late 1970s. It’s all right here.

By the way, I’m going to skip over Street Lady even though it was an important/successful album, yada yada. The only thing I want to say is that the title track is an interesting “throwback” to Byrd’s sound from about five years before. It’s like a retro-hard-bop tune.

Donald Byrd: Wind Parade
From Places and Spaces (Blue Note, 1975)

The Mizell brothers era of Byrd’s career is perhaps his best known to most hip-hop fans given the sheer number of samples that emerged from it. Anyone up on my site should already have “Wind Parade” in heavy rotation but this is one case where I can’t not include it in here. Any song that helps power one of the greatest remixes in hip-hop history deserves that much.

The Blackbyrds: Mysterious Vibes
From Action (Fantasy, 1977)

At some point in the early 1970s Byrd landed a production deal with Fantasy Records and from that, he assembled a group of former Howard University students and they became the Blackbyrds. By the mid 1970s, though Byrd was still recording on his own, he was arguably experiencing more success in producing other groups, especially the Blackbyrds who had a string of hits I’m sure all of you are familiar. “Rock Creek Park” remains a constant staple for any good disco set but I threw in “Mysterious Vibes” here because 1) I like the name and 2) it’s groovy.

The 3 Pieces: Shortnin’ Bread
From Vibes of Truth (Fantasy, 1975)

The 3 Pieces were a short-lived group from the D.C. area that Byrd also produced, albeit not to anywhere near the same success as the Blackbyrds. Pity since the album yielded at least two strong cuts: the jazz dance track above as well as the more mid-tempo crossover track, “Backed Up Against the Wall.”

The Blackbyrds: Wilford’s Gone
From Cornbread, Earl and Me (Fantasy, 1975)

This seems as good a place to close out: the dark, moody, melancholy groove of “Wilford’s Gone” from the soundtrack of Cornbread, Earl and Me. Yet another gem shaped by the hand of Donald Byrd.


Enjoy the music.

   

Rok, that's a very good question, and I think it got lost after the beat, or was that before the beat.


Enjoy the music.

This whole "bruha" started because I stated "Before the beat or after the beat; what difference does it make, and you have never pointed how Blakey is either; you simply stated you didn't like his lazy sloppy playing.

I take it you are referring to the "Jazz Messengers" when you mentioned Wiki. Is that your way of dodging "Before or after the beat" in regard to Art Blakey's "sloppy drumming"?

After all of this, it would really be a waste not to understand "before and after the beat", but it would have to be explained by example. In regard to a "yardstick", there would have to be a number of them, and finally to take them all into consideration; for example, one of them would be how many albums an artist has made as leader. Another would be how many tunes he has composed; but since I'm a total "subjectivist" that's sort of moot because then we would have an "objective" measurement of music, and I say which ever artist you like the best, is the best.

Horace Silver is coming after you have explained "before and after the beat"


Enjoy the music.

Frogman, if you like Leon Thomas, what songs or albums do you like by him?

Frogman, by the way, the information on "Blue Mitchell"  was from "Wiki", am I Kosure according to your protocol?  Now that I've revealed it, or is there some other process I have to go through?

Rok, this is just like old times; Leon would enjoy this: me, him, and his brother on one side of Missouri Ave, and the Gatlin brothers on the other side, daring each other to cross.

Frogman, you're turning what should be a pleasurable experience into a job; I'm retired and have no desire to work, not even for money. Call me when this gets to be a fun thing to do.


Enjoy the music.

Acman, "Blue Mitchell" Graffiti must be in high demand; the CD is listed for $26.93 used. I like it, maybe I'll get it.


Enjoy the music.

"Should have stayed with Julien", you got that right. I can no longer afford the Kool aid, but once you start, you can't stop.

I long for those good old Stereo Review days, I still have a few; I really get a kick out of the low prices of equipment. Even today, the music reviews are better than "stereophile", and I really got a kick out of those "Rodriguez" cartoons.


      http://www.angelfire.com/in3/hifijohn/rod.html




Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I've liked music all my life. When I became interested in audio equipment, I subscribed to "Stereo Review"; Julian Hirsch of "Hirsch-Houck Laboratories" was my guru, and his philosophy was; "if you can't measure it, it ain't worth talking about"; consequently I purchased my audio equipment based on specifications.

When my Phase Linear 4000 went on the blink, I decided to find out what those crazy people called "audiophiles" who paid crazy money for stereo equipment were all about. That's when I visited my first "High end salon", and I was blown away; this thing called a CJ PV 10 was a little pre-amp that sounded better than anything I had heard before, although it's specs were not as good as my Phase Linear.

After that, I discovered I could hear beyond what any test equipment could measure; that's when I became what I call a "subjectivist". Now, I base everything on my "subjective" senses, and it works for me, and I'll give you an example of how this worked just yesterday.

As you know, reel to reel tape decks are very complex pieces of equipment. My "pitch control" quit functioning properly and needed adjusting. The instructions in the repair manual were straight forward and simple, except for one thing; I didn't have the repair equipment.

(1) connect a digital counter to the output jack.
(2) Set tape speed selector to 38cm/s
(3) Set pitch control to on in center position.
(4) Playback test tape QZZOW380EX (no problem if I had one)
(5) Read the output frequency, and confirm that output frequency is 3000hz
(6) If it is not 3000hz, adjust VR904 so that it becomes 3000HZ
(7) After adjustment described above, turning pitch control to maximum and minimum position, confirm that more than 3180 hz is obtained at its maximum position,and less than 2820hz at its minimum position.

As easy as falling off a log, providing you have the test equipment.

I put on a Nina Simone tape, plugged my earphones in, and proceeded to adjust VR 904. This was a live recording, and when I could hear the tinkle of ice cubs in the background, I knew I had it right.

I look and see with my third eye, and listen with my inner ear; my "subjective" senses do the measuring, and that's how I function.


Enjoy the music.

Since "Wiki" has become a debate point, instead of posting anything "Wiki", I'll just post the link.

This is Horace Silver discography;

   
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Silver_discography


Horace Silver biography link;


          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Silver



It seems that "Love and Peace", a tribute to Horace Silver; Dee Dee Bridgewater,done in 1994, was the last credited to Horace Silver. This is "Song For My Father" by Dee Dee.



      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otcHh-90eo4



Enjoy the music.

"Nica's Dream" is very important to me for sentimental reasons. Frogman stated that his preferred version is the template by which all others should be judged "to paraphrase him" I strongly disagree.

This might be my favorite; he described it as "sleepy and lacking energy" If that's not provocative, I don't know what is. After that statement, I challenge his credibility as a "Jazz Aficionado".

Now what makes his statement so absurd, is that Horace Silver is on piano on both version. Figure that?


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lju13U1zEE



The one below is by "Dee Dee Bridgewater"



        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwvuGJPQBNw


I have no idea how you compare the two, but Frogman will figure out a way.




Enjoy the music.

"Silver's own version of Nica's Dream is my favorite of the two; by a long shot! Blakey's version is too slow. There is no law that says that a tune can't work played at a tempo different from the one the composer intended, but this is a case when the composer's tempo is so clearly the better one that it makes Blakey's version sound sleepy by comparison and lacking energy. Then, there's Blue Mitchell's solo on Silver's version; that alone makes it the better one for me."

Above is exactly what you posted; when "Horace Silver" composed the tune; Horace Silver played piano on both versions; except, to me, Blakey and "The Jazz Messengers" kick it way up. How do you know that the composer didn't decide to slow it down a notch, since he was the same on both versions?

Evidently you're accustomed to teaching grade school kids who can't afford to get provoked. I'm going to leave it at that.

If you think Mitchell's version is better than Donald Byrds, put them up for a vote; we don't have no dictators here.


"either you are a person of extremely limited intellect to continually misunderstand and/or distort the meaning of things or you’re simply an ass"

If that's not provocative, I don't know what is; this can continue until the cows come home, and since I'm in St. Louis, that could take awhile.



Enjoy the music.

Frogman, could you kindly respond to the post just above your last post?

Rok, did you check out the link on my post at 4:58PM ?

Acman, I thank you for another fantastic contribution; Horace Silver is really digging in on this one; the way he's sweating, I hope that piano is waterproof. Everybody is playing at such a high energy level; I don't see how they can maintain the pace. Each individual artist is a star on this one. It's nice that "Song For My father" fell in after this one.

Keep up the good work; with everybody contributing we're getting everything we would want as a tribute to Horace Silver without all of it coming from one person.


Enjoy the music.

Acman posted "Graffiti Blues" by Blue Mitchell on 4/11/96, and it was released in 1973. Me and my buddies had what we called the jazz posse in 1973. When one of us bought a new album, the first thing we did, was to get on the phone and call for a gathering of "The Jazz Posse". Of course we did a lot more than just review a record, maybe we sampled some good wine, or whatever else that was available for sampling; anyway we really looked forward to these gatherings. One of the reasons I'm mentioning this, is because of the "alert" resources I had available in 1973, anytime a boss LP came up that I didn't know about, there was a very good reason for it; either it wasn't released at that time, or there was almost no exposure.

Another reason I'm mentioning this is because someone asked why didn't some of us buy "new" music. When I'm constantly discovering music like this, I don't have funds for new music, another reason is, this is so much better than "most" new music; not all new music of course, but rarely has anyone come up with any new music that's worthy of my limited funds.

Who was the best; Donald Byrd or Blue Mitchell?
Does it really matter?



Enjoy the music

Alex, I really enjoyed those clean recordings of Louis Armstrong; it's funny, but I'm so accustomed to the noise, clicks, and pops when I hear Louis Armstrong, that clean recordings of him sound strange.

In regard to the trumpet players, we share the same likes and dislikes; I think it's foolish to get in a who is the best argument, but I seem to get drawn into them sometime. I have heard some very good sounds made by FH, but he's a long way from my favorite.



Enjoy the music.

Frogman, if there's anything you should have learned by now, it's "you can't teach an old dog new tricks".

Here's my thoughts for the day for you "The sun will come out tommorow"


Enjoy the music.

"Too third world"; but I like third world, a drum hasn't been made that I don't like. I admit the guy on the cover didn't look much like Horace Tavares Silver, until you took a closer look, but everything must change.

I've been listening to "Bird's Best Bop", and I must admit, that was quite a switch from "Silver N' Percussion". That compilation brought up one question "How could one man turn the universe around in such a short time"? Birds music never gets old, and it's the only "Bop" I still like.

Enjoy the music.

This is from "Silver N' Percussion" I think it's fairly interesting. It came out in 77 and not too bad for that time frame in his career. Babatunde Olatunji on percussion makes this one worth a listen.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOgx7QBPXMw


Here's one with voices "The Spirit of the Zulu";

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naP3KC-TWkg&index=3&list=PL0yFebGRzwN7ea9gznR_q1ZHhVjLbe_wG



And here's the "Wiki" scoop on that LP


          .wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_%27n_Percussion


I think it's certainly worth acquiring if you don't have it.




Enjoy the music.

Alex, very good contribution.

"Blue Note" pushed their artists to produce original, visceral jazz of the sort attainable only with time and hard work. The music that arose in this atmosphere was like no other."

Does that mean that "Blue Note" can take credit for the music that was produced? "Blue Note" selected the artists who had a very rare talent, that no amount of hard work could produce. I was fortunate enough to know two of those artists personally, and my friend who didn't practice that summer was one of them.

"There he goes again, stirring up trouble".




Enjoy the music.

The reality of a any highly regarded jazz artist; they had the talent, plain and simple; "either you got it, or you no got it". I can think of an artist who got world wide publicity, went to Julliard, played with the very best jazz artists around, but didn't measure up when he had his own group, and got out on his own. He could play the trumpet better than anyone around; nobody disagreed with that, not even other professional trumpet players, but leading your own group means coming up with your own original music that's good "sometime"; like Horace Taveres Silver.


SUBMITTED BY PETER.CROSBY ON DECEMBER 31, 2008 - 11:47AM

On December 29th, Freddie Hubbard, one of the last great jazz trumpet players, died after a heart attack at age 70. Growing up, I was a huge fan of Freddie. I used to listen to his records and play along (did I mention that I started playing trumpet when I was nine? Cuz I did).

I liked his fat tone and his melodic solos, but ironically, hated his song choices. In fact, I felt that he played best when he soloed on other people’s songs (“Zanzibar” by Billy Joel, for example).

But what upsets me the most about his death is that the Media—when they learn a jazz musician has died or done something newsworthy—immediately phones up the only jazz musician they’ve ever heard of, Wynton Marsalis, to comment. I swear they have the guy on speed-dial.

And, while Wynton is a skilled musician and brilliant self-marketer, he is not a brilliant jazz musician (unlike his older brother, Bradford). You see, whereas Freddie’s playing style was languid, relaxed and fat, Wynton’s style is overly busy, uptight, stilted, soulless, cold and technical. As a classical trumpeter, he’s extremely proficient. But Wynton’s forays into jazz are like Paris Hilton’s forays into acting—painful and unnecessary. So asking him to comment on jazz is like asking Britney Spears to comment on parenting.

What’s worse, he doesn’t just show-off by playing too many notes himself, he teaches upcoming young trumpeters to show-off by playing too many notes, too. It’s like the way Whitney Houston, albeit unwittingly, taught a generation of young girls such as Christina and Britney how to “sing” through their noses.

This was driven home for me when I recently attended a holiday concert at Davies Symphony Hall in San Francisco by Irving Mayfield. I had never heard of him before, but I wasn’t thrilled to learn that he was a protege of Wynton’s. Still, since Marsalis said he studied Freddie’s playing style without learning anything, I hoped that perhaps Mr. Mayfield was an equally poor student of Wynton’s playing style. No such luck. Mayfield has the same note-heavy, technical approach his mentor does.

Sadly, aside from Arturo Sandoval, I have found few living horn players who can play at the level of past jazz trumpet greats like Lee Morgan, Blue Mitchell, Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, or Fats Navarro.

And now, to that list, I must regrettably add Freddie.



Although these are Peter Crosby's thoughts, they are "sympatico" with my own.




Enjoy the music.

Rok, the aristocracy has made the decision in regard to Wynton Marsalis; I guess that's because he can play classical music and went to Juilliard.

Everybody,  including me, put Wynton in the class with all the past mentioned great trumpet players when he left Blakey; it was Wynton's albums when he got out on his own, that told who he was; he was a we wanted him to be, that didn't have it.

The aristocracy needs some kind of hand in the works on jazz; the aristocracy wants a foothold in everything, but at the end of the day,  the same people who have always had the final decision in who's who in jazz still have it, and what the aristocracy says is "counterfeit".  

They can put it in every news headline if they want to, and it will still be "counterfeit".  Who's who in jazz is determined by the people on the street, not by the aristocracy.


Enjoy the music.

Frogman,  I just realized your problem, you were the  "Grand Puba" of jazz on Audiogon until after years of this thread, now you feel threatened.  As far as I'm concerned, you are still "The Grand Puba" of jazz on Audiogon.

"There is one thing I know about this country for sure. Money talks, BS walks. He would not be where he is if he were not the best man for the job. Too much is at stake for BS."

Those are the truest words you ever spoke, "Whatever the aristocracy says, is what they say it is; end of all arguments.


Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I noticed that misspelling as soon as I saw it, and I knew you would point it out, but that didn't change what he said.

Acman, we absolutely do not look at life from different angles, my friend "according to Wiki" started when he was a child, and worked all of his life, that's all he did. That summer he was was performing three nights a week and had absolutely no need to practice.

My point is; the average person could work from the time he was born until he died, and never be able to do what "my friend" did. Have you ever seen and heard, some of the very best improvising jazz musicians perform; not one sheet of musical paper in sight. Now I know there are many who say, "they just couldn't read music" and I say to them, "they just can't improvise jazz at a high enough level to be performing in front of a crowd of critical jazz fans".

No Acman we don't have different points of view, just different observations of reality.

I forgot to mention, he performed on a stage "live" in front of what has to be one of the biggest crowds in the world, that's the stage under the arch in St. Louis on the 4th of July.



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Since I don't even know how to spell the word, it's for sure I don't qualify.


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"Smokey Robinson" was when "Mo-Town" made Detroit one of the top cities in the country, and I was there; it seemed that everybody had a new car, fine clothes, nice home, and lived good.

Now I know what a "Grand-Poobah" is. let's make Thursday, any thing goes day.

Mapman, with a headdress like that, there could be no doubt who "The Grand-Poobah" was.


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Rok, Sun Ra had that same group together for some time, they even lived in a big house together; they were the people who put life into his insanity, and made it bearable. June Tyson was a vocalist and dancer who understood his insanity, and helped to make it real.  (insanity is a bad word, but that's the only one that came to mind)


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Art Pepper knew how important "The word on the street" is in jazz. So much so, that he overheard some "jive turkeys" bad mouthing him, and alleged reverse racism; what he didn't know is that the word on the street had given him his proper place in jazz as an alto sax man, and his record "Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section" confirmed that.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Pepper_Meets_the_Rhythm_Section


Jazz musicians are the most independent individuals I've ever met; Miles said something to Red Garland, that he shouldn't have said, and Red was gone, just like that. For better or worse, they live life like they see it, and don't have no "Boss Man"

Red Garland, Paul Chambers and Philly Joe Jones, would not have recorded with Art Pepper, if he wasn't qualified.



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Rok, Audio...WTF,,,,Although video will knock your mind out of socket, it's much better than any other other drugs.  I think dope addicts should be forced to look at Sun Ra videos, and then they'll be spaced without drugs.

Sun Ra; A Joyful Noise" is the video that shows the big house they live in, and gives a few performances of the crew; I found it entertaining.


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Frogman I credited "Sun Ra" to Rok, when you're the one who submitted him, my apologies. You ain't seen nothing until you've seen a Sun Ra video; I keep hoping that one of them will make some kind of sense; June Tyson, and the other members of his crew worked so hard to make it happen, but it always fell short.

If you ever want to escape your own logical senses, look at a Sun Ra video.



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I hope everyone else is enjoying Sun Ra, I know I am, and I want to thank everyone for their contributions.

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Aficionado's, I've got "Silver N' Percussion" release date 1978, which I think is OK; of course that's not a good recommendation for a Horace Silver Lp, but that's all it gets. As a result of 1978 being the apparent cut off date for the best LP's, I'm going to go back in time from that point and anyone who wants to suggest an album we'll review it together.

Silver's Serenade is an album that doesn't ring a bell with me, so that's where I'll start.


AllMusic Review by Thom Jurek


Horace Silver's LP Silver's Serenade is a swan song; it was the final recording with his most famous quintet, which included drummer Roy Brooks, bassist Gene Taylor, saxophonist Junior Cook, and trumpeter Blue Mitchell. The band had made five previous recordings for the label, all of them successful. The program here is comprised of Silver compositions. The blowing is a meld of relaxed, soulful, and swinging hard bop, as evidenced in the title track. However, "Let's Get to the Nitty Gritty" has one of those beautiful winding heads, beginning so slowly and then jumping a notch in both tempo and intensity. By the time the tune gets to full steam, though there are short stops, the joint is swinging in blues -- check Mitchell's solo on this tune and how he keeps returning to Silver's theme as the root for his blowing. "Sweetie Sweetie Dee" moves from hard bop to funky bop. The dissonant chords that open "The Dragon Lady" have an Eastern tinge. The tune's head is spacious and breezy within a minute, and the tune begins to swing. Silver returns to those chords again and again as if to keep the players inside the mode he's created, letting them solo for only a bit at a time. The knotty turn-on-a-dime changes in "Nineteen Bars," the final track, are pure instrumental and compositional virtuosity. Cook's blowing on his solo is matched by Silver's comping, moving through octaves and key changes. The tune smokes from start to finish as the album comes to a close. This is another excellent recording by the greatest Silver quintet. The 2006 Rudy Van Gelder Edition features no bonus tracks, but sound fanatics will be pleased by the clarity and separation here.

Aficionados can go to "you tube" for a test drive on these tracks, or write a review on any they are familiar with.



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"Horace Silver", Hangin Loose; the piano definitely sounds like a cross between Horace Silver, and Bobby Timmons on some "Messengers" Album that I can't think of at the moment.

"Clark Terry"; definitely has a sense of humor, sounds like he done had one too many; reminds me of some argument I've overheard before in a lounge; that was a good tune.


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