@pjw81563
tonality can vary in its presentation from minor to complete dissonance.
Yes -- this is indisputable.
And you are correct -- Eric Dolphy does not engage in "chaos". Nevertheless, I find I do not enjoy his playing, at this point. When Jazz soloing is mostly consonant -- that is to say, when most pitches are targeted straight on-- I can enjoy touches of dissonance. I have plenty of Post-Bop recordings of sax players employing over-blowing and other extended techniques but Dolphy tends to not hit many pitches straight on -- his sound is quite "wobbly" in terms of intonation, overall, and this I do not enjoy.
I don’t know what qualifies as the earliest Free Jazz recording. Coleman’s Free Jazz isn’t a favorite but I do enjoy his "classic" quartet albums.
Are you familiar with Sam Rivers’ "Contours" ? I love Freddie Hubbard’s playing on that but Rivers is just too outside for my tastes. To use the analogy of a coloring book, Hubbard’s playing goes back and forth between staying "within the lines" and crossing over them -- he weaves back and forth and makes a point of maintaining a connection with consonance while Rivers, to my ear, is not nearly as concerned about this connection. Consistent with your assertion that I highlighted, It’s a matter of degree, not an either/or polarity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxNeEYxue54
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@mahgister
Any great musician if it show off , even if it is a genius repel me...
I can admire them but not to listen to them many hundred times ...
But the one i listened hundred or thousand times are the one who sing a song , and dont need to prove themselves as master...
Yes. I want to hear a song about what it means to be human. A song about how fast someone can move their fingers or how many notes they can play is not a very interesting song... well, not interesting to me, at least! But perhaps the greatest masters are those who can utilize impeccable technique and still "serve the song", whether playing simply or in a highly complex manner.
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@pjw81563
I don't know what you mean by "wobbly"..Maybe you can define it another way.
I'm speaking of intonation -- whether one plays pitches "in tune" or slightly flat or sharp for reasons of expression.
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Happy New Year!
Explosive detonations around our neighborhood were, for a change, mercifully confined to a merely a half hour or so. Good thing, as the quantity and intensity was way up from last year. 💣
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@curiousjim
I’m wanting to thank you again for suggesting the Penguin Jazz Recordings book.
You're welcome!
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@pjw81563
I attended a show at Yoshi's with Tyner, Lovano, Bobby Hutcherson, Billy Higgins and Charnett Moffet a year or two before that show you mention.
I've always enjoyed the pairing of Tyner and Hutcherson. Have you Heard "Land of Giants"?
I like Hutcherson and Harold Land, together, too. Are you familiar with the recordings by the Landmark All-stars?
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@pjw81563
I'm familiar with the Brown/Roach band, both with S. Rollins and Harold Land. I'm not a huge Rollins fan but one I do like is "Plus Four" with Brown.
I listened to that track from "The Peacemaker" and enjoyed it. Too bad it’s so expensive as an out-of-print CD. Recently, I scored a new copy of "Mapenzi", though, so these do come up, if one is vigilant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeSu0v27JJU
I listened to "Quintessence". To be honest, I’m not sure what to think. I’m so habituated to Evans in trio formant that I’ll have to listen to this again.
Hutcherson and Land had a quintet that released at least two albums on Blue Note-- "Spiral" and "Medina". B. Note released both as a "two-fer" on CD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IZLRjPCwmA&list=PLXlq4LVUyCx57z219YB2tGTOcSKOoXTXG
Hutcherson also played on Land’s "Xocia’s Dance" :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNUnlgSOEW0
Hutcherson has always been one of my favorite Jazz musicians, although I’m not a fan of his 70’s recordings -- too commercial and slick for my tastes.
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@pjw81563
That’s a great C. Hawkins album.
Chambers was a monster and remains undervalued, it seems to me.
The D. Byrd is not really my thing. I prefer more melodic and harmonic content. Otherwise, my mind starts to wander. Maybe I just have a short attention span ;o)
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When its "roll" the reference is not only to the balancing movement of the player body, but to his ability to improvise a CONTINUOUSLY transformative rythm who do not swing but who rolls one beat into another new one without end...
Elvin Jones!
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@mahgister
I see him in person when i was 20 years old...In quebec city...
Lucky you! And my wife and I love Quebec -- especially the Charlevois region.
As it happens, my Boucher acoustic guitar is built in the province.
But "rolling" dont refer only to drummers "beat" ...
OK. I'll be the first to admit I don't fully understand what the term means. Reading your descriptions, Elvin Jones happened to be the first artist that sprang to mind.
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@mahgister
"rolling" is the integration of melody, rythms, harmonies, IMPROVISING playing micro tonal gestures in ONE single expressive event ...
Ah, OK -- I think I get it, now. Thanks for the further explanation.
When I listen to Evans, I tend to get so caught up in the emotional expression that other concerns (technique included) simply recede into the background. I suppose his lyrical approach may strike some as overly feminine/lacking in masculine fire /vigor but I'm not one of those.
Are you familiar with Michele Petrucciani? He made no secret of the fact that he was strongly influenced by Evans, but he is more playful, more outgoing, more overtly passionate player, with no shortage of technique. A marvelous musician.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFvAmN3Vp7w
I particularly like "The Complete Concert In Germany", which I could not find here but was able to purchase in Paris. It does not seem to be available on Youtube, currently.
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@mahgister
In that case, I very much hope you find him to your liking!
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I'd be disappointed, should you conclude my ears are "unreliable" ;o)
Just kidding -- personal taste need not be validated rationally.
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@frogman
Jackie Maclean is a great example of a player who played so sharp (above the reference pitch) that it can be uncomfortable to listen to. Eric Dolphy, on the other hand, used idiosyncratic intonation of certain notes for great expressive effect.
Interesting. . . It's Dolphy that I find consistently "uncomfortable".
I don't have that experience with any of the half dozen or so McLean recordings in my collection.
You've piqued my curiosity. Can you suggest a particularly "uncomfortable" McLean performance? I'd be curious to hear it.
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@mahgister
You’re welcome! If I could listen to one trumpet player, it would be Woody Shaw.
Fortunately, there are many recordings by him to enjoy.
@alexatpos
Jazz that focuses mostly on rhythmic vamps without the addition of strong melodic content tends not to hold my attention. On that D. Byrd recording, what I hear is mostly groove and "atmospheric" colors.
Or, if you prefer, It simply doesn’t speak to me.
RE: the samples:
The first I like best.
The second is cool-- very Bluesy. I have to be in the right mood but for that mood, I dig it. I don’t consider it Jazz, so I don’t bring the same expectations to it as a listener as I do Jazz.
I prefer Richie Havens’ version of the third tune. I’m not big on choirs/massed voices, in general.
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I like this... and it’s reasonably affordable on CD, no less.
Thanks, @mahgister !
Any chance you might list some other Japanese Jazz CDs you like?
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@pjw81563
A small jazz ensemble comparison example showcasing the alto saxophones of McLean followed by Phil Woods
OK -- it only takes seconds to hear the difference. I like both but when listening to McLean, I'm not focused on his intonation, wishing it were less sharp. A poorly intonated guitar can drive me nuts but I don't have perfect pitch.
On the other hand, for me, Dolphy's playing is akin to taking a swig of milk only to realize someone's spiked it with vinegar. I find it fundamentally unpleasant.
For McLean, I enjoy: "Left Alone '86" (w/ Mal Waldron), "Jacknife", "Let Freedom Ring", "Dynasty", "It's Time", "Action" and "Consequence".
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@pjw81563
OK... more on intonation. When the guitar player on that Handy Monterey album plays two notes that are "rubbing up against one-another" in a blatantly out-of-tune fashion at around 13:36, my ears/brain instantly rebel.
I like "Karuna Supreme" a lot. Might have to buy that one. Charlie Mariano was another who shared Handy’s fascination with Indian music.
The LA Jazz station I listened to in the mid 70’s used to play "Hard Work". I’ve heard worse worse singing than Handy’s on "Blues for Louis Jordan". Nice sax playing on that track. I’ve always enjoyed the Blues.
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Thanks, @mahgister
Am enjoying your suggestions...
Some may be challenging to find on CD but I will look.
@curiousjim
Arturo O' Farrill
+1
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@mahgister
I'm curious -- do you use the EQ controls on the Sansui?
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@mahgister
I was surprised to learn the Sansui had such EQ controls. I figured, given what you've discovered and commented upon RE: "embedding" systems, that EQ wouldn't be something you'd utilize.
I use a Schiit Lokius occasionally, usually to reinforcing lower mids and/or rolling off highs with bright CDs. Although it involves extra cost -- requiring two sets of interconnects-- I value the added flexibility this set-up offers when it comes to tone-shaping. Still, the more dialed-in my system becomes, the less I use the EQ.
I have no experience with LTA, but I've yet to encounter anything but positive remarks about their products, here on the forum.
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@mahgister
I never need equalization with my speakers or my other headphones too...
I never remember you saying anything about using EQ in the past with your previous system but then, I'd never noticed the tone controls on the Sansui before. My poor observation skills! ;o)
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The Clifford Brown Max Roach Quintet
All killer, no filler!
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@pjw81563
I've never been much of a synth fan.
Has Hiromi done any recordings performing solely on acoustic piano?
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Thanks, @acman3
Very nice recording.
I agree.
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Is this thread running out of steam?
Quick-- someone bring up something controversial about Jazz ! ;o)
How about this -- what was the most recent live Jazz gig you attended ?
For me, it’s been, I’m guessing, close to ten years: Kenny Werner Trio at the Harris Center in Folsom, CA. Werner was booked for the smallest, most intimate of their three performance spaces that seats just 200. Despite its diminutive size, it was not sold out, so we were able to stay for the second set for free. Such is the sad state of Jazz appreciation in America. The Harris Center is a gorgeous venue -- must’ve cost a fortune to build and the lenders must be applying pressure because it’s been years since any Jazz or anything remotely interesting has been offered -- it’s all blandly inoffensive mainstream pablum, at this point. I guess that’s what the public wants.
Anyway, it was this group: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwW5XKCfP4A
I really miss being able to experience live Jazz. But at this point, I’m not willing to spend 2-3 three hours each way in the insanity that is Bay Area traffic. All the more reason to own a nice system!
BTW, Werner is also known as the author of a "Effortless mastery -- Liberating the Master Musician Within" which addresses common psychological difficulties, such as perfectionism, that hamper many players.
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@curiousjim
Ella Fitzgerald was really a blond and wore a size nine dress!
Yes -- best to treat it as a joke and not (deliberately) tread on any toes !
Egads -- what was I thinking?
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@pjw81563
Yes -- I’m familiar with Goshen but had no idea it was the birthplace of a well known Jazz pianist. My grandparents lived for a long time in Slingerlands, outside of Albany-- we made many trips up and down the Thruway when I was a kid!
The only other guy I’m aware of who’s from the Hudson Valley is the guitarist John Platania, best known for his work with Van Morrison, purportedly born near Woodstock. The 1980 live at Montreux dvd is a great example of his tasteful playing and a killer show, overall, for Morrison Fans. What a pity this is not available as an audio CD!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0c9OQYoXLU
@mahgister
RE: "free Jazz at its best", the older I get, the less tolerance I have for disharmony, whether political or musical. Not saying this is necessarily a good thing, but it’s what’s true in my case. Perhaps, were the world less chaotic (or I more centered), I’d feel differently.
It's fascinating what M. Allan says about every listener coming to the music wanting something different, and how what Allen plays is a "spiral, never-ending", which allows each listener to get what they seek from the music, "when it's their turn". I guess I'd have to listen to more Sun Ra to see if, in fact, the music does come around to a point where it's "my turn".
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@mahgister
Stitt recorded an awful lot but only a small fraction of his output has been available on CD, so I haven’t actually heard that much of it. "And the New Yorkers" is my favorite of those I’ve heard.
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@mahgister
I prefer to recommend here less known name who are great...😊
That makes sense !
I like Sipiagin’s playing enough to check out his work as a leader.
Don't know why I haven't done so, already.
I just looked at his All Music listing and there are more releases than I'd expected, including several with Chris Potter. This will be a fun exploration.
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@wharfy
I was lucky to catch Les in concert in '76.
He was a master at blending Saturday night and Sunday morning -- a supremely soulful artist and a dynamic performer.
@curiousjim
This is the first performance by him I like. He's actually phrasing! Who knew?
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@curiousjim
You read it straight through, cover-to-cover ? !
That's impressive.
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@curiousjim
Butman is a new name to me...
Potentially embarrassing name "but man", can he play!
Sorry for the adolescent humor.
I'm listening to "Reflections" co-led with Conrad Herwig, as I was drawn by the personnel -- Sipiagin, Kikoski, Watts, Davis. I'll probably have to buy this one. Thanks!
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@mahgister
RE: Jan Johansson: yes; very relaxing. Interesting style -- don’t think I’ve come across anything similar, before. I'm intrigued.
@curiousjim
Butman, back atcha:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hK2MUffAWU
I’ll have to see if I can figure out which of his recordings contains this tune...it kind of reminds me of movie soundtrack music... end-of-a-love-affair scene.
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@pjw81563
Yes ; I'm familiar with this live Quintet recording.
I heard it when it was first released but at the time it did not seem as strong to me as one particular night's performance I'd witnessed with my wife at Yoshi's, hence I've never owned it. This track is pretty hot, though and has got me thinking that I need to re-evaluate. ;o)
@ho249
Of course, I've seen Iyer's name here and there but have never actually checked out his playing. Time to do so!
@curiousjim
Herbie Nichols Trio.
👍
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@pjw81563
Listened to a lot of the late great Wayne Shorter last night. The album Speak No Evil is probably his best overall session.
"Speak No Evil", "JuJu", "Night Dreamer", "Adam’s Apple" and "Etcetera" please me equally.
"The All Seeing Eye", "Schizophrenia" and "The Soothsayer" not so much. I find the writing on "The All Seeing Eye" off-putting and on the two other recordings, James Spaulding is, to my ear, a liability. While he may be a fine second-tier player, he’s not on the level of Shorter and the other players.
On "Odyssey of Iska" and "Motto Grosso Feio", Shorter plays (if I recall correctly, soprano) over long jams that you might actually find to your liking, if you haven’t heard them. They are somewhat akin to early Weather Report. Also, check out Horacee Arnold’s "Tribe", "Tales of the Exonerated Flea" and Miroslav Vitous' "Mountain in the Clouds".
Shorter had at least two encounters with Milton Nascimiento -- on Shorter’s "Native Dancer" and on the latter’s "Milton". I prefer "Milton".
That Blakey outfit with Wayne, Freddie Hubbard (or Lee Morgan on Indestructible) was amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJBLA39spc4&list=OLAK5uy_nJOp9u0pWGGTEbPU_rtQN35yOkuJ9WCd0
Wayne was also a prophet...
Shorter was deeply influenced by involvement in the Nichiren Shoshu sect of Buddhism, as were some other Jazz "heavy hitters", such as Herbie Hancock.
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@curiousjim
You're welcome.
Between the two, you should be pretty well covered ;o)
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@frogman
One of the true giants of this music and my favorite post-1960, or so, Jazz composer.
Mine too !
I particularly love his melodic sensibility.
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