Tenderly, Love For Sale, Summertime, Laura, Round Midnight; those are songs somebody wrote. They've been around for ages, and played by jazz musicians, popular musicians, rock musicians, and possibly even country and western musicians. A person can go to school, practice, and perfect his skills on his chosen musical instrument, learn how to play all of those songs perfectly in his chosen musical style; but none of that will enable a person to write one of those songs.
No amount of practice, school or many other musical attributes will enable a musician to mesmerize a crowd of people with his improvisational skills on his chosen instrument night after night. "Only" jazz musicians can do this, and not all of them; it's a gift that's reserved for those who are recognized as being at the very highest pinnacle of musicianship, Charles "Yardbird" Parker for example.
One step down from this pinnacle, are the musicians who have successfully led groups of other musicians over the years and written music as well; Horace Silver, Thelonius Monk, Dave Brubeck, and Art Blakey come to mind. And last on this ladder of success are musicians who have simply excelled on their chosen instrument. Since this group is so arbitrary, I won't give any examples because there is too much disagreement as to how we should rank them overall as jazz musicians.
If a "jazz" musician can excel on his chosen instrument, and play someone else's music better than it's ever been played before, that's fine; but it drops him down a notch if he can't create "original" music of his own that excels in the ears of other "jazz" musicians and aficionados.
Fame and fortune might be the determining factors in other endeavors, and music even; but not in "jazz". If that were the case, Kenny G would be "Da man". Unlike any and everything else, the high priests of jazz are determined by aficionados and other jazz musicians. Charles "Yardbird" Parker, the recognized high priest of jazz, was relatively poverty stricken.
While it's almost impossible to compare current and past jazz musicians because of the generational gap, one of the most important factors is the stability of current musicians who also reject drugs and alcohol. That certainly helps their economic success. "Jazz" musicians are still rated the same way now, as they were when "Bird" was blowing his horn, they're rated by other jazz musicians and jazz aficionados, not by Newsweek, Time, or MSNBC. Jazz is the only anything, where the unofficial word on the street is the last word.
"They've had no real experience with the real essence of those guys (Miles, Trane and Monk) -- the way they help their instruments, the way they acted, what really caused this music. Most of the cats trying to play hardcore contemporary jazz don't have their own style. Or there are some people like Wynton [Marsalis] who play the horn, but don't play no hip jazz. They're just into playing the instrument good. They're not creating ideas." That was a quote from Freddie Hubbard and my own personal opinion as well. His statement and my opinion have absolutely nothing personall to do with Wynton Marsalis, that's just the way it is.
Enjoy the music.
|
learsfool, you are a classical musician. You think and speak like a classical musician. By now you should realize that "all" musicians don't even live in the same world, even when they only live blocks apart.
I'm sure the jazz musicians I knew had to learn their skills somewhere, but they did not practice. As often as they performed, they didn't need to. Yes the kind of musician I knew was rare, but I have no reason to fabricate.
Your world as a musician, is so different from the the jazz world, that you're having a hard time accepting it. You stated that all the musicians you knew were into the high end. Now I know why, "Classical music sounds like noise when it's played on less than high end equipment", but that's another subject. According to Branford Marsalis, he was the only jazz musician he knew who was into the high end. John Lee Hooker had several homes before his death, and he had Kenwood rack systems in all of them, he said he liked a "funky" sound. Musicians I knew were either working on a gig, or digging a set, and rarely sat down to listen to recorded music; of course we were both young then.
Wynton Marsalis could be one of the most perfect "Classical" trumpets ever as a result of all the things you have stated about musicians, and he could be the best "side man" ever. If you call that "Wynton bashing", so be it; but I'm using him as an example of what you think the most accomplished musicians have to be.
Erroll Garner was self taught and remained what's called an ear player. Learsfool, you are imposing your reality on a world that's foreign to you. We all do that at times.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, I wish Wynton all the success and happiness in the world, but in regard to "the music", I agree with his critics, and this is what I thought a long time ago before I even knew he had critics. As far as I'm concerned, his critics are agreeing with me, as opposed to me agreeing with his critics.
Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, believe it or not, I agree with you on all counts, that's why I'm going to return this subject back where it belongs. Do you remember "Johnny Smith", who put out an album titled "Moonlight In Vermont". I was listening to that late last night, and it sounded every bit as mellow as when the first time I heard it. Stan Getz sure sounds good on the title track. There are a total of 3 tenor sax men of this CD including Stan Getz. It's a must have, with Zoot Sims, and Paul Quinichette. (that's pronounced Quin-a-shay) also on tenor sax. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xf3rAXoYjAEnjoy the music. |
"Body Heat" is my favorite CD by Quincy, and since every last cut on this CD is my favorite, I was forced to pick one. "Along Came Betty" was the one I picked. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ9Il20bfWIEnjoy the music. |
Chazro, one musician I knew did not practice. Yes you misunderstood me. Others who have been following this thread should have gotten a better understanding. |
If I said anything to give you the identity of my "jazz friend", I would appreciate it if you just forgot it. His heirs, who I respect, might object to my revelation of the fact that he never practiced.
Maybe Frogman, or Learsfool could tell us how he selected the musicians to accompany him on what they called "pick up gigs". Although none of them were famous, they were accomplished jazz musicians. These sets were always in what I call "deep in the pocket" jazz clubs, no requests of standards, all improvisation, where the musicians had to really be down with it. "If you can't git down, don't git up".
That last note reminds me of a local jazz musician I knew. When I asked him why he wasn't famous, he explained that he preferred the life of a family man to being on the road, and then he opened a large album of photos which contained photographs of him accompanying many very famous musicians when they came to town.
The last time I saw him, he really put on a show. Since he knew all my favorite tunes, not only did he nail them, but he added his own licks which indicated, not only did he have what it took, but that he knew he had what it took.
I recall an interview of Horace Silver by a famous DJ, where Horace was telling him about problems with his bass player. "He told me that he was tired of playing that same old "beeng bong", I told him that's what makes my sound, I've got to have that "Beeng bong". he wanted to stretch out and make it known that he could play more than "beeng bong". I don't recall how Horace resolved that issue, but if you listen to the 1956 version of Senor Blues, with Hank Mobley, tenor sax; Donald byrd, trumpet; Doug Watkins, bass; Louis Hayes, drums; you'll hear how "beeng bong" blends in with the piano and makes that jam so spectacular. Maybe Horace gave him a raise, I don't know, but this is a remarkable revelation to both sides of that "beeng bong" coin.
|
Rok, there's a vocalist who's more current than Ella, who likes to scat a lot, and inflect her own vocal gymnastics into a song like a horn player. She's a marvelous jazz singer, but she doesn't respect the classics, which is something Ella always did. She would never scat on a classic song when the object is to deliver the emotion of the song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swnwW6QdP9AElla made my point for me. Enjoy the music. |
"Music appreciation of the 'high end' seems to stop at 'Kind of Blue', and then only if it's an 'audiophile' pressing." If I hear that mentioned one more time I'm going to have twins.
Rok, I'm not sure we're communicating when we talk about "Blues", because I never liked what we called "gut bucket" blues. As a matter of fact we're talking about a whole different culture of people, not just music. Many people who like "gut bucket" blues don't seem to be aware of that.
Enjoy the music.
|
Acman3, that's the sound of some "new jazz", and I did not see one single solitary black face. Jazz is not a race of people, jazz is not a nationality; jazz is music, and it goes wherever the creative muse takes it, this is hip, the muse has taken jazz to poland, and I like it.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, my favorite movie was "Apocalypse Now", it's good they don't allow weapons at the VA, cause them fightn words.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, what I mentioned in regard to blues and jazz, is more related to culture than to music. Check the Bio's of Elmore James, John Lee Hooker, Little Walter, and Sonny Boy Williamson, not their musical Bio, but childhood Bio. Those guys had some hard times, and they played in what was called "bucket of blood" clubs early in their careers. They were called that because of the bloody fights that often broke out in those places as a result of the (uneducated is putting it mildly) clientele. The jazz culture and the blues culture are as different as night and day in regard to the people, I'm talking 40's and 50's. All of it's very interesting, but not a subject for a music thread.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, I was wrong about that music, it originated from Dallas Texas, not Poland; that makes it USA born, they just had a polish audience and were performing in Poland.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, now that we've traveled to Poland and many points in between, it's time to get back to the music. I've got to catch up on your reviews, and maybe you can take a look at "Moonlight In Vermont" by Johnny Smith. That is one boss CD. I wore the LP out ages ago, not one bad cut on it.
Enjoy the music.
|
Frogman, I bought that LP when it came out. Toots said that's his best ever, even though he wasn't the leader. There are so many aspects to that one LP, and I've enjoyed them all, but your take on the music always adds something new.
Enjoy the music.
|
True story: I was in a funereal limousine In Miles Davis's home town, and someone tried to lighten the grim journey by starting a conversation about Miles music. The chatter was going back and forth, when the grieved widow chimed in "I remember Miles, he was that little dark skinned kid who was always trying to blow the trumpet." After that, there was total silence for the rest of the journey.
|
Rok, Emily Remler and Barbara Dennerlein "Stormy Weather Blues" was boss, they're on my list. The best thing about new jazz is that it can be recorded so much better.
Enjoy the music.
|
Fight! Fight! I love a good brawl; Rok versus Frogman, that even sounds like a thriller. Rok said Johnny Smith didn't have enough tension and dynamic range. Frogman said Johnny was perfect, and Houston Person had too much.
Before jumping into this brawl, I went back to you tube. There was Johnny on this beautiful LP cover with a full moon behind him, in front of a snow covered Vermont, and I can just picture the "ski trails". His guitar, and Getz smooth tenor sax have me gliding down those ski trails on a moonlit night; all of this captures the song. In totality, this ranks with the most perfect "Moonlight in Vermont's" I've ever heard.
Frogman wins by a TKO.
Rok, if you changed the name to "Groovy times in Vermont" or "Groovy Times at That Church in Vermont" ( that sanctified yell by Joey on organ took us there), you would win by KO. Better luck next time.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Frogman, you're making the music I've been listening to all of these years brand new all over again, as in "Watermelon Man"; keep it going.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, that vocalist I referred to; if she had named whatever she was singing and going through all sorts of jazzy pyrotechnics on, something else; there is a good possibility I would have like it, but instead, she was messing up one of the classics. Houston Person was not so far from that classic, that I would say he messed it up, but it still wasn't as good as Johnny Smith's version. Lyrics or no lyrics, classics are sacred, and a person can go too far for "aficionados".
|
Rok, if you want a little Cubano in your Afro try this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV0ew5RJodM
Followed by the master drummers, and Mr. Bass himself, "Oscar Pettiford".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhFonpC4yR8
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, if you can't find the "You tube" fuget about it.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Rok, since neither one of those albums was the best ever, what was the best jazz album ever? Put up or shut up, nothing in between.
Enjoy the music.
|
Frogman, casting "Moonlight in Vermont" aside, I really liked Houston Person and Joey D. Instead of picturing a snow covered Vermont, I could picture a table close to Joey D's organ; man that would be ever so mellow, and Houston's tenor has such a golden tone that I could enjoy it all night long, right there live on the set.
Rok's just fooling with us, he got it a long time ago.
Enjoy the music.
|
Frogman, "Mingus Ah Um" certainly works for me. He was so far ahead of his time.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, and Frogman, sometime there are other emotional events attached to music that make it so special. Although I've had this album since it came out, after your evaluation, is the first time I've looked at, or listened to it "objectively". Each time I listened to it in the past, there was always instant recall of glorious events swirling around the music. Now I realize those events affected my love for this music.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Frogman, now that you and Rok done shot my best album down, I'm waiting for yours. Not that I'm looking to shoot it down, but add it to my collection.
While that LP doesn't sound so hot now, it was "Somthin Else" when it came out.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Rok, "Mingus' Oh Yeah" could very well work for me as "pick of the day". I've got just about everything by Mingus, including that.
Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, learsfool, and Rok, the reason they can never get it right, or get it wrong a lot of times, is because they are working on two different sounds, one for who ever is on the stage, and another for whoever is far out into the audience. When they get the one for the audience right, people on the stage began to complain that it's wrong.
I've been there before. If the people on the stage realize it doesn't have to be right for them, they can get it right for the audience.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, I assume you're using the USB input on your Marantz SA8004? |
Rok, forget I ever mentioned HD Downloads. I had a problem that caused me to tell those people they were selling "snake oil", when the problem was in my computer and was not identified till after I called my "geek".
|
Rok, my grandmother liked "Chopin", I heard her say it when I was very young. It was ages before I discovered "Chopin" and "Sho pan" were the same person. I liked him until he got a little too busy for me.
I saw Aretha live in Detroit, you can't go wrong with Aretha; just the sound of her voice floods me with memories of good times.
You lost me with "The Wolf Man", that's the kind of blues I can live without. One out of three ain't bad, when you consider that it was outside the jazz realm.
Discovering old jazz that I haven't heard before has been most fruitful for me. No current category of music that I'm into lately, but world music is my alternate choice.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Acman3, if I had been there, I would have been overwhelmed as well. I've got several discs of Luc Ponty when he was in that bag, after this, I'll have to get that.
Enjoy the music. |
|
Frogman, I got my order in for Johnny Griffin. Your opinion of Lorez is an indication of just how "subjective" female vocalists are. While I'm not impressed by Carmen Lundy, she seems interesting as a person, and I'm investigating her art and biography.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Rok, as usual, you're right, but at the same time your wrong. Although she's Lapland, the music is still Native American, and she identifies with Native Americans because she's one of the indigenous people of Norway, and Native Americans are the indigenous people of this country. They have similar cultures.
Git in the Geronimo, Sitting Bull, Cochise groove and shut up.
Enjoy the music. |
|
|
While no one associates "Ray Charles" with jazz, I have two jazz albums by Ray that are on par with some of my best. "Soul Brothers" with Ray and Milt Jackson, has already been reviewed, so I'll go to Ray Charles, "My Kind of Jazz". He gives us his unique interpretations of jazz standards. There is a reason they call the man "genius", and it can be heard on this album. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiZg5pvRT8kEnjoy the music. |
Rok, Frogman, Leersfool; here's music we can all agree on. It has the best elements of several genres of music, and I get carried away every time I hear it. Maybe Frogman, our musical encyclopedia will give us the history of this song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhFC7LB5OXsEnjoy the music. |
Rok, Salome is hot and smoking in every and any use of the words, I ordered the CD.
Enjoy the music. |
|
|
|
