Jazz for aficionados
Apropos of nothing - you might like them or not - a couple from Christoph Oeding's Northwest. Something I stumbled onto via Spotify's browse/discover recommendations function... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epM8HIuhML4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPICQxRr_6A |
On the topic of Joan Baez...a song about some guy she knew - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Gk-RZl1IAo&list=PL-bvrZjsC286o1zNqFgUoqyE_Wp_u_XO3 Killer (Speaking strictly for me). |
Frogman - Glad you liked the Christoph Oeding. His Northwest (album those tracks are from) is not a buy for me yet but I do keep coming back to it on Spotify. Bill Frisell presents another one of those objective/subjective, head/heart quandaries. He is a superb guitarist. No doubt. (Have you seen the live videos of him in the Ginger Baker trio (GB + Charlie Haden and Bill)? See the ZL14w ink below. There might be better quality versions of this trio live on YouTube but I couldn't find them just now. Notice how CH is way off to the side. His hearing was damaged apparently and he needed to protect it on stage. Had a lot of Frisell's solo stuff saved to my Spotify library. From a technical point of view my head acknowledges his excellence but my heart just could not get with the program. Maybe I've not listened to the right solo stuff by him. Recommendations appreciated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql6iGLZL14w Here is something else I think excellent. If you don't know the guitarist, you might be surprised by his "bona fides". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyTo5VwcMhg |
Very apt description of Frisell’s style, Frogman, as well as the disconnect I tend to feel with him. Enjoyed your comments. I do find the videos of him as part of that Ginger Baker Trio concert worth watching. The first (1/4) is very enjoyable but I found myself getting annoyed with him early on in the second. I’ve always appreciated and agreed with the objective/subjective distinction points you’ve made from time to time. Might have misled you by posting the link to Spiral (Bozzio, Levin, Stevens) in the same post with the Frisell comments. Apologies. I should have posted that separately. Intended it simply for appreciation of a beautiful instrumental with some "improvisational" elements. Wasn’t intending to solicit a "compare and contrast" of the two! - though I don’t argue with any of the points you make about Frisell vs Stevens. If I could only listen to one of them, I’d definitely pick Frisell. Stevens on the 2 BLS albums is, however, a lot different than you’d expect from his work with Billy Idol or even in that way-over-the-top Michael Jackson video. Yeesh...back lighting, smoke and wind machines, big hair, black leather, screaming crowd...did they leave any rock stereotypes out of that one? I’m more from rock/blues than jazz but that video is documentary evidence of what I loathed most about MTV! Gimme that Ginger Baker Trio performance any day! (Hope you won’t be offended by my mini-rant here). I know MJ is widely respected as a great talent - I’m not disputing that - but his train left the station without me ever being on board. Not that my lack of interest matters a whit to anyone else! "Just sayin’" so as to provide some further context on personal taste. Later. |
O - Thanks for those 3 of Bohemia After Dark. Didn't know BAD or Oscar Pettiford. Interesting to compare different performances of the same music. Have to say, enjoyed Ms. Krautscheid's performance very much. Well done and nicely succinct! Thanks to you too on the Renee Thomas, Alex. Hadn't heard of him before. Yes - on the panel between Haden and drummer. I think the same thing is in evidence on that Ginger Baker Trio video. |
I’m behind a good deal in the discussion(s) and links recently posted here. Frogman, As usual great comments. Well articulated. I don’t have the expertise but your MJ vs Bily Ocean comparison of "objective" merit strikes me as correct. The only point I’d make is the professional excellence demonstrated in the MJ video gets trumped by my indifference (lack of response) on an emotional level. Not a luxury someone in the biz (a producer, engineer, arranger, session musician etc.) can indulge, of course. Probably just stating the obvious. BUT I also wonder (beyond technical considerations and purely subjective responses) at what point do artistic valuations come into play? Is this stuff worthwhile? Will it be relevant 50, 100 years from now? Does it have roots in a formal artistic tradition? (not wording this last one quite right). I’m sure this isn’t a complete list. So I dismiss MJ and Caribou Queen because, based on my aesthetic, they don’t make the grade. Is that just another purely subjective response? OR if I’m informed and have "good taste" (whatever that is) does my judgement have some objective standing and carry some real weight?!. Not sure a click track is the cause of everything you heard in the BLS "Spiral" track BUT it might be symptomatic. If you get a chance, give a listen to Black Light Syndrome (the earlier recording by this trio). Can’t remember where I read about it (liner notes? All Music Guide? Amazon reviews??) but this was supposedly more improvisational than Situation Dangerous (where Spiral is from). Situation Dangerous being a recording of actual compositions. If my memory is accurate, your comments about Spiral are certainly consistent with this. While I didn't pick up on it, I’m impressed you detected what might be called "studied-ness" in the performance. Stevens is reportedly a fan of flamenco. You can certainly hear flamenco in Spiral. Haven’t heard it but he has an album called, "Flamenco A-GoGo". That’s one I’d definitely like to hear. No problem about not liking the Ginger Baker Trio performance, though I am surprised. From what I’ve seen of that performance, I thought Baker’s playing very restrained and maybe intentionally so to give more room to Haden and Frisell. You know of course Baker (and Jack Bruce) started out as jazz musicians and were supposedly well regarded as such. I’m not expert (yet again) on jazz drummers but some folk do have a more favorable view of Baker in that role! But again, no problem. Mainly posted those links to showcase Frisell’s playing. Haven’t gotten to all your links yet. I do appreciate your thoughtful and in-depth remark on mine. |
Frogman - Battle performing Bachianas Brasileires No. 5 is quite something. It might not be opera but the vocal skills are certainly derived from that. @alexatpos If you’ve never seen the 1981 film, Diva, I hope you will. If you have already, then I hope you will enjoy again this scene... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFg-M6c5tU0&ab_channel=AtaGET Well, Callas was right there and I couldn't resist. Great photos too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pkNpl-tZIw&ab_channel=Klibanarios |
Thanks for introducing me to that particular piece by Frisell, @acman3. I’m enjoying it and have found on Spotify the full Blues Dream album it is from. That’s not anything I’d come across previously or had in my Spotify album collection. I do expect it’s something I’ll be spending time exploring in the next few days. Not sure it’s really brass (synth?) but I do like those "brass chorale" type chords he’s playing over. (Thanks as well for the earlier links to Sao Paolo Underground and Kenny Dorham. I'll be checking out SPU further.) |
Ah...okay, Frogman. I’m thinking it might be the breathier reed sound of the sax that I picked up on. Didn’t realize one was in use. I heard a softer leading-edge texture and that's what made me think a synth had been used. While I don’t know enough music theory to fully appreciate your explanation of the chord voicing, I think I DID actually notice it without understanding the "why". At one point, Frisell’s guitar comes out of the mix to solo and I realized it had been there all along playing chords (prior to soloing) pretty much in unison with the "horns" [what do you call it when it’s a mix of sax, trumpet, trombone?] Might be the person I admire most in any number of musical endeavors: THE ARRANGER. So often they are the ones that bring the magic. Orpheus - How about some links to rehearsal videos? Show stuff being hammered out...who does what, who plays what, etc., etc. (apologies if it’s already been mentioned and done to death here). |
Finding old jazz rehearsal videos might be tough. Did find some interesting stuff while looking. Probably already known to the regulars here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0sru1t6YpE&ab_channel=Milestones:AMilesDavisArchive https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOJj4YXWPLI&ab_channel=J%C3%BAlioPimentel |
Dixie Dregs - yeah, okay. Excellent musicianship. REALLY good. Musically it’s a little boring (well the bit sampled here) BUT I’ll listen to more by them. Great drumming. Heard of Steve Morse, of course. On the other hand I never listened to them as a band! Always mixed them up with Dexys Midnight Runners and that horrible hit THEY had so avoided ’em. Totally mixed up and mistaken on my part, of course. Thanks for the links. Pat Martino? - FREAKING A!!! Why was I not told about this sooner!!! Those tracks are sublime. To me, more interesting than anything from Weather Report I can call to mind. Those are some complex (time signatures?). Not just technical excellence (esp. Pat’s guitar and his drummer, Kenwood Dennard) but somebody actually gifted with a sense of MELODY. THANK YOU much. If Joyous Lake draws me back for repeated listening, it’ll be a buy. Found it and saved it to my albums on Spotify. Listening to the whole thing now as I do some paperwork this AM. Best thing that's happened so far today. |
"Now we go back to the music." Exhibit A: Tony Williams Lifetime, "Wildlife"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq-jXfNzeIQ&ab_channel=ps Fusion like this might be the best of two worlds. Lovely loud. |
Frogman - Thanks for those links (tho’ intended for inna). The Dave Douglas is new to me and based on a quick listen seems worth spending more time with. Just fyi... The intended link to Ben Monder’s The Distance, in fact opened to Craig Taborn’s Prismatica from his album, Junk Music. Prismatica ain’t working for me but I’m now curious about the Ben Monder so will look for it. Found Elysium by Monder on YouTube. From the album Hydra. Hmm. Dunno. Reminds me a bit of Laraaji’s Ambient3 Day of Radiance. Haven’t found The Distance yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMBNKmZgs_Y&ab_channel=AmbientLand |
@inna - I am not particularly enamored of John McLaughlin despite his technical prowess) - or Mahavishnu Orchestra, for that matter, so I offer the following suggestions realizing there might not be a happy confluence of taste in any of them (though just about all can be considered "progressive modern jazz", I think). In addition to Frogman’s recommendations, check out: Pat Martino - Joyous Lake John Scofield - Hand Jive (both the above suggested to me by Frogman, as I recall) Medeski Martin & Wood (End of the World Party, Friday Afternoon in the Universe, Juice, or Out Louder might be of interest). The Antisocial Club (Alan Pasqua et all) Andy Summers - Earth & Sky Nils Petter Molvaer (You are familiar with him but might not have heard these. On Spotify I have saved as albums: An American Compilation, Baboon Moon, and Streamer) Jaga Jazzist - One Armed Bandit; A Living Room Hush Meridian Arts Ensemble Arve Henricksen - Places of Worship Contermporary Noise Quintet - Unaffected Thought Flow (just be sure to listen past the first 40 seconds! or skip directly to track 2) Goran Kajfes - Headspin The Nels Cline Singers |
No problem on the link, Frogman. Hmmm...the same feeling for almost 4 years now? How about 8 years with unhappy prospects for a further 8 years to come (well 4 more, anyway). Ultimately, however, "There is no political solution to our troubled evolution." You can't build a brick house when all you have is wood. Necessary changes to society (in simplest terms: how people treat one another) can't be imposed from the outside. They'll only happen when the individuals making up that society undergo fundamental internal changes to their basic motivations. But as a society we're too sophisticated, intelligent and advanced to entertain the possible need for repentance and reconciliation with God. And then people keep wondering how come things ain't getting any better. Oh wait! Sure they're getting better...starting round about when Time Magazine asked "Is God Dead?". Yup, no mass shootings in schools, no drugs, less violence, improved living conditions in inner cities - safer, happier all around. Our progress is unmistakeable. God help us all given either major party outcome this November. That's it for me. So ends the sermon. Hoping the Landlord returns soon. On a happier note, thanks for the link, Inna. I watched that McLaughlin Hellborg performance. There is no doubt JM has amazing technical skills but, for me, as with Bill Frisell, I don't connect with the performance on an emotional level. I went back and gave another listen to Inner Mounting Flame (think I used to have this along with Birds of Fire). Had forgotten some of the names that were in M. Orch...McLaughlin of course but also Jan Hammer and Billy Cobham. Funny, I found Cobham's drumming along with Jerry Goodman's violin the things I liked best (and in that order). Hammer's keyboards next. McLauglin's guitar work last. Again, amazing technical virtuosity but where's the beauty? Not that I want shallow lyricism all the time but for me, JM err's too much to the other extreme. Please don't get me wrong. I am NOT trying to argue your enjoyment or appreciation of him is misguided or in any way wrong! OR that I am "right" and holding a "superior" position. Just trying to verbalize what's not working for me. Glad you enjoy his music so much. Well, gave you a bunch of things I've been listening to. Not all at the same repeat frequency - but these are definitely things I find interesting and enjoyable to varying degrees. Hoping at least one or two of them will click for you and provide something of what you heard with Mahavishnu. |
Frogman - I thought I understood your comment as applying to results of the last election. I might well have missed your actual point though (and that’s not to draw you out for elaboration!). Inna - I’ll be very interested if any of those suggestions work for you. Likewise, if you independently come up with some M.Orch. "surrogates" - please share. Somewhat apt comparison to Miles...well, at least (for me) some Miles. I don’t think JM can be afforded the same regard as MD, however...Miles was forging major new musical paths (as I only vaguely appreciate). JM’s legacy as an innovator is less significant, I think. Regardless, that’s not really the point of your comparison, though, and it is in fact a helpful one. FWIW - I can connect to Bitches Brew and In a Silent Way. Sketches of Spain, however, I just don’t get. Not sure I’ve ever been able to make myself listen to it all the way through. And Sketches pre-dates those other two by a good bit. Go figure. O - I half expected my post to be removed. Thanks for your tolerance. I’ve no wish to be the focus of conversation here. On to music. jafant - good reminder about SunRa. A name I know and might have heard a few tracks by him way back in ’73 or ’74. Have not listened to him in a LONG time. Might be something Inna likes. Will have to explore him. Didn’t he have something going called The Arkestra? |
Hello Inna - no need to apologize...you is what you is and you likes what you likes. Similar situation for me with Yngwie Malmsteen. Though I admire him (along with that other "shredder", Joe Satriani) for technical chops, that performance doesn’t make me want to go out and listen to more of his repertoire. I can’t explain why. Wish I could. On the other hand, the Mehran jalili "Little Song of Hope" hooked me with the first few notes...at least generated enough interest to want to hear more of it (and visit his website). THANKS. Inna - If you like something in a flamenco style, check out Carles Benavent's "Quartet". It ain't your grandfather's flamenco. Excellent sonics and good music (though Orpheus did not care for it). I found it to get better and better with repeated listening. Talking Santana. Is this homage or parody? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0nIlJKSrVg&ab_channel=G%C3%A9rardParame |
Frogman - While I could hear something reminiscent of Santata I didn't pick up on Evil Ways as the take off point much less pick up on the same key or the Gm - C chord vamp. I'm impressed. What's your background in music if you don't mind me asking? Yellow Shark is over (Doing a little painting project. Music alleviates the the tedium). Not really my cuppa and I'm reminded why it's been a lot of years since last I listened to it! Jaga Jazzist Living Room Hush on now. A bit more accessible. |
I tend to agree with the parody assessment, Frogman - as well as your evaluation of Frank's vs Carlos' musicianship. But ultimately each has artistic merit. The possibility of homage never occurred to me until I read some of the comments. As parody though, it ultimately ends up being WAY more than a mocking bit of instrumental music. Excellent in it’s own right whatever the motivation. I have high regard for Zappa. He’s no novelty act and is firmly grounded in music as a (discipline?). Zappa by Barry Miles is very enlightening in that regard. I need to refamiliarize myself with Yellow Shark. |
Thanks for sharing that bio., Frogman. You have my admiration. Thanks also for getting me to listen to the Herbie Hancock. I've known of Headhunters for years but never owned it or listened to it recently. '73 would have been junior year in college. I do recall it made some waves. His solo is fantastic. Just amazing. It really soars. The drumming and bass work are great too. So precise. I can't imagine how complex the times are on this stuff. One fly in the ointment...more of an oddity, maybe. There is a repeating riff under Hancock's Rhoads solo. Clavinet, possibly. It actually starts right after the first break at the 2:00 mark and accompanies that reedy sounding soloing instrument (can't decide if that's a sax of some sort or something electronic/synth). Hancock's solo starts after the second break at 5:20 or so. That same riff is non stop in the right channel (listening to headphones) and much lower volume than the Rhoads. Sounds like a chicken squawking in a barnyard. What's weird to me - it doesn't always seem in time with anything else! Like it's a tape loop running fixed to one (time signature?) and doesn't keep up. THAT was a curiosity to me. What's up with that? Let me know if you can interpret! From the sublime to the ridiculous maybe...this was pretty fun. (though I think they got it wrong about that track by The Band) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlLxAULuq9Y&ab_channel=PhunkyPhil |
So, you got me reading about Herbie Hancock. Yeesh. Talk about prolific. Not to mention Wiki says he graduated from Grinnell College with degrees in Electrical Engineering and Music. Maybe the EE degree explains the cover of Headhunters a little. A little over a decade before HH there was this.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J5riMnfsj0&ab_channel=HerbieHancock-Topic ...and 12 years later, THIS! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VN8zH366M8&ab_channel=MacFalko This might be the best video ever posted to this thread! Kidding of course - but it is a pretty great performance. By the way - Have you discussed Freddie Hubbard much on this thread? (It’s all new to me...more or less). What a sweet sounding trumpet...more so in ’62 than in ’85. But his ’85 solo really is killer. |
@inna - thanks for those links. Have listened to Jesse Cook's "Gravity" a bit. If you like him at all, do check out the Carles Benavent "Quartet"...a little more jazz inflected than Cook's stuff but shares the flamenco influence. Shawn Lane! Who knew? Not me. Totally new name. Will have to read up on him and see what he's recorded. By the way, are you familiar with Soft Machine. In the quest for an M. Orch substitute, it struck me there's a remote change they'd be of interest. Maupin's soprano sax solo reminded me. Here's a track from S.M. 5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR3fQzhdgZY&ab_channel=riversend21 |
F - Enjoyed reading those Santana comments. What a gracious, humble person (at least based on that). I'll have to try and find out what the Zappa Dylan-parody is about. Didn't know about that. Hmm... soprano sax. That explains a few things. Not my favorite instrument (if I might opine) but bass clarinet - we love it's tone. Time and place for many things. So I wanted to go back and hear Hancock's earlier stuff which led to Takin' Off (also saved in Spotify, Maiden Vogage and Empyrean Isles). What a different feel from HH has T.O.! Being somewhat hit and miss on this Aficionado thread, your earlier post of T'.O. was missed. The alternate take at that link is one of 3 "extra" tracks on the Rudy Van Gelder re-issue. Has seemed to me that higher frequencies get way to much emphasis in "typical" remasters making things sound unpleasantly bright. Not so with the Van Gelder reissues. I love the spaciousness of his recordings. He definitely knew what he was about in the studio. re FH - Blues & The Abstract Truth duly noted. What a lineup! Bill Evans & Eric Dolphy too. Will definitely have to check that out. I do remember people talking about Red Clay when that came out (might be repeating myself). Being late to the jazz party as it were, knew his name but not much else. His soloing in that Blue Note concert video is just INsane! I'd like to know, at the very end, what they are kind of laughing about. He has an almost apologetic look on his face as he turns to Joe Henderson after the finish. The ending on his second solo is a little (anti-climactic?) if not down right odd. Hancock is kind of laughing a little too. That 1985 Blue Note Concert is available as DVD. Will give serious consideration to purchasing it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Night_with_Blue_Note https://www.amazon.com/One-Night-Blue-Note-Historic/dp/B0000DZ3HM Okay...blathered on a good bit here. Orpheus - apologies if I'm just trampling ground already well-ploughed. Hope not. |
Hey O - Very pleased to hear about the Blue Note DVD. I just ordered it myself. 3 hours worth of music. If there are any performances on par with Herbie Hancock's/Cantaloupe Island, I'll be very pleased. I was very impressed with that performance. Yes - discovering lots of new music on this thread. As I've said more than once, thank YOU for starting it. |
Wanted to share a new music suggestion from Spotify’s Browse/ Discover function: Jazz Pistols. Fusion from Germany (those madcap Germans, you know :-). Guitar, Bass, Drums. Instrumental (my preference). Latest album (on Spotify): Superstring (2010). Haven't made up my mind about the music on it. Like the guitar tone (always a soft spot for a hollow body’s sound) and the bass player’s work in particular. Musicianship seems first rate. Not sure how "deep" the musical ideas are, however. Will it bear up to repeat listening? Here are a couple of studio live tracks: "Penguin" & "Twenty" (don’t judge the bass player by what he does on "Twenty", however!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN74GozqjBg&ab_channel=JazzPistols https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUOgGR78xA4&ab_channel=JazzPistols |
"...no musical ideas at all there." Huh. Well, inna, I'm not prepared to say that yet. Haven't made it through the entirety of Superstring but can say their music is growing on me. Right now listening to Track 6 Smbh and liking it. Only time will tell, however. How often will I go back to listen to it? In my experience the albums I didn't "get" from the start can be the ones that end up being keepers. There seems enough complexity here to warrant some return visits. Out of curiosity, other than McLaughlin/Mahavishnu Orch. & Miles Davis, who do you like? That should provide some insights. |
Frogman, pleased someone else is liking Jazz Pistols. I could hear the time signatures were complex/unconventional and appreciate getting the technical details from you. The interaction between the three musicians is "tightly woven". Am not up to speed on all the latest links but did see Acman's mention of Michael Brecker. It just happens that another recent Spotify Browse/Discover recommendation was for "Steps Ahead" which as it turns out was a '70s fusion project by Mike Mainieri (vibes) that included Michael Brecker and Steve Gadd as well as Eddie Gomez and Don Grolnick. (Thank you Wikipedia) Here's a link to the track "Islands" from the eponymous release. After it, You Tube brought up another Steps Ahead track, "Safari", from an album called Modern Times. That sounds pretty good too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh1aSZF23mo&ab_channel=TheRealTobobias |
@inna - Can’t say I didn’t try, though possibly my last effort to find some mutually gratifying listening :-) Not jazz (apologies O) but "Modern Composition". Dunno if that’s the same as your "Neo-Classica"). Check out the Kuba Kapsa Ensemble. Kapsa: Vantdraught 10, Vol. 1 (2015) Kapsa: Vantdraught 4 (2016) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW7YiXY09wI&ab_channel=KubaKapsaEnsemble-Topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL6pRTjmXWQ&ab_channel=KubaKapsaEnsemble-Topic A site that might prove useful to you is: a closer listen - A Home for Instrumental and Experimental Music. I’ve posted about this site elsewhere on A’gon. Here it is again: https://acloserlisten.com |
Hello Rok. Been wondering where you were. Would say "welcome back" but that might be kind of presumptuous on my part (johnny come lately as it were)...never the less, WELCOME BACK! :-) Hey Frogman & O - my bad taste comment was made a little tongue in cheek but thanks for the consideration. Frogman - I have to agree a little bit with O on the Metheny. Now, I could be talking out my southern orifice and I do need to give that Baltica vid another shot but what O said is almost exactly the feeling I got. That is, Pat was sort of doing an imitation of something that just didn't come across with any conviction, energy, passion...whatever. Just seemed kinda tired to me. Like I said, could be southern orifice talkin'. On the other hand, I DON'T agree that young musicians playing old jazz material is automatically "bankrupt". The improvisational wonder of jazz should prevent that so long as they make it their own and bring something fresh to the game...or so I think. On another point, as i wrote in reply to Rok a while back, I'm one that thinks there are parameters by which music CAN be objectively evaluated. There's good and bad sh** independent of what I or anyone else thinks. I think this can influence the subjective experience too....education whether book learning' or on the job training (years of listening!) can inform taste AND taste as a discriminatory ability can be cultivated. Point being, the opinions of some are worth more to me than the opinions of others. The subjective response of someone with good taste carries more weight with me than someone without the education - however that eduction was gained. You realize, the two of you, that you are sort of the Yin & Yang of what's been (at least recently) an ongoing theme in this thread. Two sides of one truth. As far as the Pat Martino, Joey DeFrancesco "The Great Stream" - I missed that first time around. I don't keep up with all the music posted here. It's like this major buffet. Just can't eat it all. Pat's quite a talent. It blows my mind that he suffered an aneurysm and had to relearn his art from the ground up more or less. So props to Pat but after the first few minutes of his soloing I was getting a little restless. That's just me. How do these guys get up there night after night and find something new to say? I'm sure it's not all brand new every night. Passages get reworked and reused. Still the creative flow is amazing. Clapton has commented about the "burden" of being lead guitarist in Cream and sometimes running out of ideas - on stage! Got to be scary. I don't get any sense of that with Martino - not in that performance, anyway. For whatever reason, however, I sort of preferred Joey D.'s solo a bit more. Maybe because it was shorter, more concise? or I just like that Hammond sound. Will definitely share that clip w/my bro-in-law...a musician. So thanks to you both for my on-going jazz education. |
Frogman, Figures you would be "steps ahead". hahaha I did give a quick listen to the Metheny, Brecker, McBride Jazz Baltica 2003. I do like Metheny but that straight up jazz guitar stuff just doesn’t (usually) do much for me. I did not get too far into it. Maybe it just starts off slow. That being my usual response to "jazz guitar" is one reason the Les McCann "On Time" album with Joe Pass surprised me. I don’t expect to like such playing. This is not to say the Jazz Baltica performance is not objectively good! Just another demonstration of my "bad taste", no doubt. I’ll give it another go tonight. |
"I would like to get a better sense of what he likes and doesn’t like in jazz guitar...." Hey Frogman - Good luck with that! since I don't even know what I like or don't like - at least not until I hear it. To be clear, I wasn't ripping on Pat in any general way about his more conventional jazz playing. He is arguably the embodiment of musical innovation for various reasons. I was simply conveying an impression from my brief sampling of his playing on that Baltica clip. Not to say all his "straight up jazz" playing would be that way. I need to listen to more of that Baltica performance as well as your other three "assignments". [Yeesh - I wasn't serious about Jazz 101!!] Will get back to you on that/those. I hear what you are saying about the Pat Martino vs Joey DeFrancesco solos. Another example of a head/heart dichotomy, maybe. PM's might be objectively superior but Joey D. still carried the day - at least for me. I shared that clip with my bro in law - no mean pianist himself. His comment back was, in his opinion, Joey DeFrancesco might be THE best jazz organist. He admires him a LOT. Inna's parting post was perplexing but kind of entertaining at the same time. At the risk of playing amateur psychologist (he did warn about this) I do often wonder what insecurities or deficiencies some posters are compensating for given the tone of their communications. Orpheus - The Flintstones reference made me chuckle. What a great show that was. |
Hello again, Frogman... I’m afraid I don’t have anything too profound for you w/r to the Pat Metheny Quartet, Wes Montgomery, Jim Hall or Kenny Burrell links. I think what I have to admit is I’m not that big a fan of the traditional jazz guitar. Not sure I’d voluntarily spend time listening to any of the three album links you posted. I did/do prefer the Wes Montgomery and Kenny Burrell albums to the other performances. In fact, I had Burrell’s Blue saved in Spotify so, since the SQ is better streaming that, I put it on and have it playing now. As I finish typing this, the Wes Montogomery (track called, Four on Six) is playing. That really is a fine album. Might be something that grows on me. I’ll see if I’m drawn back to it. Why do I like these over the others? Probably a combination of factors and nothing that signifies an absolute preference for Burrell or Mongomery regardless of context or material. I don’t wish to offend but I don’t care for the "typical" jazz guitar sound...as shallow a reason as that may be! It’s kind of a soporific to me. Jazz guitarists seem to go for this sort of rounded off, muted, mellow sound. Like nylon strings except I’m pretty sure they aren’t all using nylon. No bite. I feel like the guitar is on novocaine...or I am. In the case of the Jim Hall performance...a general anaesthetic or a medically induced coma. Maybe that’s the tradition. Dunno. I do like the sweetness of a hollow body but got to moderate that with a little "attitude". Burrell and Montgomery seemed to have a little more edge in their tone (though not in your face rock guitar by any means). I listened to 15 minutes of the Baltica concert (2 songs). Compare Pat’s sound to Brecker’s. The sax was so much more expressive. Maybe that’s what you meant when you said Joey DeFrancesco’s sound was more dynamic than Pat Martino’s (I think that was the gist of your comment). Not much fire in that kind of guitar sound - in my O-pinion. Burrell and Montgomery have that similar sound but with a little bit more edge to their tone...well, sometimes. I happen to really enjoy the blues so the Burrell Blue album was already at an advantage over the others. Again if it were Wes or Pat Metheny playing the blues, might like them as much or more. BUT this is leading somewhere in that, I’m often thinking in listening to jazz guitar (as in quite a few of these recent links) "TOO MANY NOTES!". And why do all the tempos (tempi?) have to be "molto allegro"?...from scores that must be black with 16ths and 32nds!! I’m exaggerating, of course. The Burrell Blue and Wes Montgomery were a welcome change of pace and the compositions and songs were not all busy busy. By the way, who is the pianist on the Wes Montgomery? Great tasteful soloing; (e.g., on Mr. Walker)? I prefer a solid connection to melody. The connection of the Baltica playing with a melodic source seemed kind of tenuous to me (in the first 2 compositions, anyway). Same applies to that Martino/DeFrancesco Great Stream performance. I just don’t enjoy things that sound like abstract noodling. In this regard, the Wes Montgomery works for me being song-based, grounded, concise playing. Which is not to say I don’t enjoy more abstract song structure. In another post, some other time, I can give you some examples that I enjoy. Will also try to provide links to jazz(ish) guitar playing that I do like. Best I can do. Just not that big a fan of the traditional jazz guitar, I guess. Ciao. |
Hello again, Rok - I think what I have to admit is I’m not that big a fan of the traditional jazz guitar. Not sure I’d voluntarily spend time listening to any of the three album links you posted. I did/do prefer the Wes Montgomery and Kenny Burrell albums to the other performances. I do like the sweetness of a hollow body but got to moderate that with a little "attitude". Burrell and Montgomery seemed to have a little more edge in their tone (though not in your face rock guitar by any means). Thanks for taking time to comment. I realize Burrell and Montgomery are "traditional jazz guitarists". I’ll also acknowledge my preference for them wasn’t due to a discriminating ear that let me hear unique and superior differences in their individual styles (tho’ there’s something about WM’s playing that has caught my ear - but I don’t know how to verbalize it). I thought their tone had a little more edge than Martino’s or Metheny’s in the respective clips of them that Frogman had posted. Not quite so "muted"! Another reason I preferred them being that both their albums were song-based jazz vs the longer, improvisation-heavy live performances from both PMs. I do enjoy live improv...but not so much where there’s a disconnect to the original melody (if there ever was one). I still recall that excellent Wynton Marsalis big band concert you posted. Enjoyed that a lot (of course, no jazz guitar featured in that one :-). In all 4 cases that Frogman posted, the quality of the playing is absolutely excellent. Martino and Metheny like Paganini on guitar. It’s strictly a matter of personal preference (i.e., my taste at it’s current level of development!). Thanks for the Wes Montgomery recommendation. I’d be very curious what recent music suggestions you personally found sleep-inducing. Here’s something my bro-in-law sent after I shared that Pat Martino/Joey DeFrancesco Great Stream performance. It really smokes. Still not crazy about the guitar tone but Frank Vignola’s playing is amazing. Still, what is up with the tempo? Is breakneck speed de rigueur in jazz? I know not all compositions and performances are at this tempo but since so many are it almost seems "cliche" to me or is this just another jazz convention?? Anyway, check it out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R51WVtvUxI&app=desktop&ab_channel=LegacyBluesNWA BTW - Smokin’ At The Half-Note is really good! (guess I’m not the first to ever say that...hahaha). Enjoying it. Love how Wes changes things up on his solos. Not this endless cascade of rushing notes. He lets things breathe. Breaks it up with chords. No Blues, at least, working for me. The rest of the band is definitely killer too. Wynton Kelly another new name for me. Thanks, Rok. |
Thanks to everyone. O - Don C was probably before I started visiting regularly. I know the name but never listened. Got Milarepa playing now. Pretty atmospheric. Sounds like something Miles would have done a la Silent Way or Bitches Brew. What's that little horn Don is holding? Either he has big hands or that thing is tiny! Pocket trumpet?? F - I did say my "fixation" on tone was a shallow reason! Hey, when you come up listening to Clapton, Page, Hendrix, West & Taylor and that's the sound that trained your ear, it's hard to adjust to this "clean" jazz sound. Seems kinda wimpy. I believe you when you say the Martino and Metheny solos weren't "abstract" but to my ear, hard to hear the connection back to the source. Would be interesting to hear a jazz guitar piece transcribed for, say, trumpet or VIBES (that's the ticket). Wonder how that would hit me. I really didn't HATE those 3 albums just not something I felt compelled to go and buy. On the other hand, if forced to pick one of those players to learn to love, I'm thinking it would be Wes Montgomery. Acman - Thanks for taking the time. Sideman vs group leader, might well make a difference. Joe Pass' work on that On Time recording you recommended (I believe) was very enjoyable even though I don't get all giddy about the sound. Rok - You are a card as they used to say. Good recommendation on that Smokin' at the Half Note. Fits Acman's sideman proposition. Thanks for all the tutorial attention, gents. Feeling a bit like the slow kid in class. :-) |
Frogman - Thanks for those links. Never heard of the guy. It is mind-boggling how many VERY talented people God put on this planet. Amazing. Am I losing it or just becoming "brainwashed" :-)...in the first link, would you consider that a traditional jazz guitar sound? I liked it more and thought while similar sounding, it was fuller than the sort of muted sound from the Pats, Kenny Burrell and Wes. That does seem like a huge hollow body so maybe that explains what I heard. Or I could just be mistaken. In the second link where he’s playing solid body electric, his bandmate is playing soprano sax, right? Now that sounded really good to me. It sounded flute-like to my ear not something I associate with soprano sax! I can see why you would think the guitar work more "my cuppa" seeing how it’s much more of a rock guitar sound. Obviously very talented but do you think he’s a bit "sloppy" (for lack of a better word)...seems to me like he drops notes at the end of a few of his solo runs. Maybe i’m being overly critical. I am very intrigued by that woodwind, whatever it is. Thanks again. PS - Thanks for the Wes Montgomery, "The Incredible Jazz Guitar...." I'm back listening to it. Wes has something to say that's worth listening. What I especially like about him is his sense of economy. AND it is Tommy Flanagan on piano. Great combination, those two. A really excellent recording...might have to buy it (contrary to what I said previously). |
Hello Alex - I try to give credit where it’s due and always want to express my sincere appreciation for the suggestions provided - so my apologies to you! I will be checking out those Kenny Burrell links. Thank you. With respect to the earlier albums suggested by Frogman, as you might have read, I went back to the Wes Montgomvery "Incredible Jazz Guitar" album and listened again last night. That one is definitely growing on me...so maybe there is time. I’ll let you know what I think once I get time to listen. Ciao. PS - Well I fired up that Joe Jones link. You are right on the money with that one, Alex. It’s jazz but very funky. If you have more background or info about this style please let me know. VERY enjoyable (though I didn’t think much of the organ solo) - enjoyed his guitar work a ton and liked the (bass?) solo on the outro. Fun stuff. |
Full emotional appreciation of any music does not have to mean absence of analysis; in fact, the two inform each other for a deeper appreciation of the music than is possible by staying in only one camp. Well said, Frogman. I completely agree. I've had enough music training over the years to now know that I don't know...but that's another story. I like getting the technical analysis from you. Thanks for addressing many of my questions and comments. Your description of "ghosting" with respect to the Birelli Lagrene playing fits to a T what I thought was sloppiness - but it was in the 2nd link where he plays solid body electric that I noticed it. It was in a couple of his solo runs towards the end, and before he does a kind of duet with the (soprano sax?) player. Yup, did like his hollow body tone. Anything unusual about the size of it? Also, any comments about the soprano sax sound?? To Alex - I did just listen to the Tommy Flanagan/Burrell "Blues In My Heart". But probably more to hear TF. I had noticed the piano playing in that Wes Montgomery "Incredible Jazz Guitar" LP. It's Flanagan. Gosh there and in the Bluebird LP he displays such great taste and style. "Less is more" always made a lot of sense to me. He has that in spades. I think that is what works so well in that Wes Montgomery recording. They both seem to have this great restraint (balance, maybe) in their playing. Nothing over done, nothing forced, no unnecessary notes. Somebody else has a better way to describe it, I'll listen. O - did you guys already cover Flanagan? I gotta get some chores done around here. Thanks to all for your time and input. Much appreciated. |
Hello there, Orpheus. So pleased you are enjoying that DVD. I have not viewed the whole thing yet...too many other things on the stove. I did watch the performances of the first two songs with Herbie. In the second song, love the sound of vibes but I don’t have a clue who that was playing. It was very good, that’s for sure. Maybe you can clue me in. I'm looking forward to watching it with my neighbor who is also a music lover. He'll appreciate it (I'd forwarded him the You Tube clip of Cantaloupe Island that's from the concert). By the way, couldn't miss that Herbie and Freddie were wearing some really good looking suits. Rok would be pleased. And if you will indulge me here...been like a week where I been trying to fit my square blues head in a round jazz hole. Hard work, a little painful at times ;-) hahaha. Anyway, tonight wanted to get back to something more in my comfort zone, as it were. Accordingly, I offer this. [’Cause as Rok said (and it took me a little to figure out exactly what he meant) "No Blues, No Jazz. Know Blues, Know Jazz".] Hope you can dig it. This whole album is great in my O-pinion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLFlMbyA0r8&ab_channel=WolfRicketts |
Interesting confluence there, Frogman but I’d be lying if I said it was intentional. I hadn’t been following the Sanborn discussion. The name only registered as some vague recollection of late night TV (I see DS did play in Paul Shaffer’s Late Night Band). Maybe it highlights how interconnected this whole music scene is. I wish I had your ear. I can say without knowing anything else, I thought the sax playing kinda primitive and raw compared to some of the more virtuoso playing I hear in the jazz recordings recommended here. But I guess it’s appropriate in the context. Jazz ain’t ruined the blues for me yet. Regarding the "bogus comment"? Do you mean that? White boys can’t play authentic blues? The remark might have been tongue in cheek but I suspect there’s something behind it. My thought is if you want to get all purist about it we’d be limited to some scratchy Library of Congress archival recordings from the early 1900s. Exaggerating to make a point. PS -Thought this was a great comment from that Slowdown link... "He plays sax on the harmonica better than Sanborn." Liked that. |
Hey Rok- Below is Frogman’s post (10/15/16 8:35 AM) that I was replying to. This immediately followed Orpheus’ Wiki post about your International Sweethearts of Rhythm). (Where do you find this stuff?!) Didn’t realize you had said anything earlier about "bogus". Must have missed that. As a result, since I wasn’t responding to anything you wrote, your reply to what I wrote, while interesting, is not quite on target. You make some interesting points...though I don’t know if I agree with all; e.g., Blues IS a musical form that can be found in a text book, but it’s way more than that...a legacy derived from a vanishing culture tied to important period of American history. The Romantic in me is sorry to see that culture go, but I get where Orpheus is coming from too. If you have 100s of blues recording and in none of those heard a white boy playing authentic blues, than I think your answer has to be something other than "I don’t know." But that really doesn’t surprise me. From Frogman... Nice "segue", Ghosthouse, in light of the recent discussion re Sanborn/Crawford; don’t know if it was intentional or not. The alto solo on that clip of Paul Butterfield’s band is by none other than Dave Sanborn where he earned his stripes for several years before becoming the R&B/pop alto star that he became. That was his first record with the band and shows him still not fully developed as the stylist that he would become. Here is some more bogus blues 😉; I posted this not long ago. Recorded ten years later, Sanborn’s tone is fully morphed into what became his signature edgy and overtone-rich sound: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B4GNci5koi8 He quickly followed that one with an another link... Definitely not bogus: http://youtu.be/bG5xIG7EKFc Alex - Good comments. Valid but different is my takeaway about what you think re black vs white musicians doing the blues. Did not understand the "pretending to play blues" comment, however. The words were perfectly understandable but I’m not with you on that one. I’m not arguing against your point just need an example or two to better understand where you are coming from. I will check out the links you posted. Still have to sample the rest of your Kenny Burrell links! Rok - thanks for your many links. I’m particularly interested in tracking down that "In This House, On This Morning" Wynton Marsalis reference. Ciao. |
Alex - I gotcha. This seems like another of those quick sand/subjective areas - maybe. Kinda like Rok and Orpheus discussion about what constitutes (authentic) blues. Leastways, it seems that way to me. I'd be real interested in something you would nominate as an example of insincere blues...not trying to pick a fight, just curious (I certainly don't doubt they are out there). Yes -understood. I did not think your music links were intended as examples of "bad blues". |
Sorry O - My fault. Didn't realize what would follow posting that Paul Butterfield link. [But please do allow one last word from me on the Blues. Acman - YES! Rory is great. I have a high regard for him. Check out the Irish Tour '74 documentary if you get the chance. Bullfrog Blues is in it. ] Done now, O. Won't let it happen again. ;-) |
Hello O. Yup..."pocket trumpet" came to mind after I asked the question so I looked that up. Don is actually mentioned in the Wiki entry for that type of trumpet. The think I find interesting is that they claim the sound is the same as a conventionally sized trumpet. Seems unlikely but that's what is says...so, the obvious question, why did Don prefer it? Surely something other than the packing convenience. Thanks for the other links to more of him. Frogman - No offense taken. Didn't read anything as being critical of me. Some great quotes on the blues. What would be interesting in the discussion here is to read some exploration of the connection between blues and jazz. What music falls is in that "transition" zone? I'm wondering if some of the stuff in Toussaint's "Bright Mississippi" might be examples of this. Listened to more Jazz Pistols last night. Their "live" is very good...might be better even than the studio Superstring. Thanks as ever for your input about PBBB, Sanborne and that soprano sax player with the (French?) "gypsy" guitarist...forget his name. We don't like Kenny G. (though I thought he played clarinet!). Call him the "noodler". What vapid stuff. My earlier, earlier comment about not being a fan of soprano sax was based entirely on Coltrane's sound! I didn't know it could have a different more pleasing tone. Hard to keep up with this thread. Rok - who is this oracle of NYC you've mentioned a couple of times? Ciao |
