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Since Bassmen are primarily sidemen, except for OP and Mingus, their best work can be found on records headed by others. For example Milt Hintons best work, in my opinion, is on "Heavy Soul" with Ike Quebec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1cTgZDUsScThey made this record when Ike was dying and they knew it, hence the title "Heavy Soul". Milt Hinton's bass contributes so very much to this cut; but all of them played their hearts out on this album. According to Frogman, Duke Ellington's bassist, Jimmy Blanton was very influential. Also Ray Brown, Paul Chambers, Milt Hinton, Charles Mingus, Wilbur Ware and, Oscar Pettiford. LaFaro was a pivotal figure in the bass world but hardly the first important bass player. Jafant, perhaps you can find Jimmy Blanton's best work. Wilbur Ware is another bassist I don't think we've explored. Enjoy the music. |
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Jafant, as I recall, checking out the bassist was your idea, and we're still waiting on your "first" investigation of a basist. It was suggested that you give us a report on Jimmy Blanton.
After getting a description from "Wikipedia", next you go to "you tube", select the music you want us to hear, copy and past; it's just that simple.
By spreading these investigations around to everyone who shares in the rewards of new music, no one is overworked.
Thank you.
Enjoy the music.
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Funny story about Monk and Miles; Monk didn't take no crap off of anybody under any circumstances, him and Miles had some kind of minor dispute. (having a dispute with Miles wasn't the hardest thing to do). On the record "Bag's Groove", there is a cut where I make the same mistake every time, I say to myself,"That's Monk on piano", wrong, it's Horace Silver. The reason I make this mistake is because Miles told Horace to "Play like Monk right here", and Horace did so well that I still make the same mistake.
But the story get's even funnier, because Miles said he didn't want Monk's "Plinkin and plunkin", and evidently changed his mind before the day was out, because Horace imitates Monk's "Plinkin and plunkin".
I know you got this record; pick out who's playing piano on each cut.
Enjoy the music.
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Jimmy Blanton was an influential American jazz double bassist. Blanton is credited with being the originator of more complex pizzicato and arco bass solos in a jazz context than previous bassists. Born in Chattanooga, Tennessee, Blanton originally learned to play the violin, but took up the bass while at Tennessee State University, performing with the Tennessee State Collegians from 1936 to 1937, and during the vacations with Fate Marable. After leaving university to play full-time in St Louis with the Jeter-Pillars Orchestra (with whom he made his first recordings), he joined Duke Ellington's band in 1939. Though he stayed with Ellington for only two years, Blanton made an incalculable contribution in changing the way the double bass was used in jazz. Previously the double bass was rarely used to play anything but quarter notes in ensemble or solos but by soloing on the bass more in a 'horn like' fashion, Blanton began sliding into eighth- and sixteenth-note runs, introducing melodic and harmonic ideas that were totally new to jazz bass playing. His virtuosity put him in a different class from his predecessors, making him the first true master of the jazz bass and demonstrating the instrument's unsuspected potential as a solo instrument. Ellington put Blanton front-and-center on the bandstand nightly, unheard of for a bassist at the time. Such was his importance to Ellington's band at the time, together with the tenor saxophonist Ben Webster, that it became known as the Blanton–Webster band. Blanton also recorded a series of bass and piano duets with Ellington and played in the "small group" sessions led by Barney Bigard, Rex Stewart, Johnny Hodges, and Cootie Williams in 1940-41. In 1941, Blanton was diagnosed with tuberculosis, cutting short his tenure with Ellington. His last recording session was cut on September 26, 1941 in Hollywood. Blanton died the following year after retiring to a sanatorium in California, aged 23. Jimmy Blanton is a bassist I've been hearing about since I can remember, but he was before my time; meaning jazz time when I started collecting records. Since I only collected AB records (AB stands for "After Bird") I don't know if I have him in my collection, but that can be remedied. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrvHckvHj90 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPB7hBU6oj0Here are two cuts by Mr. Blanton, You be the judge. Enjoy the music |
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I decided to play a game called; Miles Davis vs The Jazz Messengers. I can't see why everyone is so "ga ga" over Miles, when Blakey's Jazz Messengers had the best music and musicians by far.
Let's investigate; Jazz Messengers were an influential jazz combo that existed for over thirty-five years beginning in the early 1950s as a collective, and ending when long-time leader and founding drummer Art Blakey died in 1990. Blakey led or co-led the group from the outset. "Art Blakey" and "Jazz Messengers" became synonymous over the years, though Blakey did lead non-Messenger recording sessions and played as a sideman for other groups throughout his career.
Yes sir, I'm gonna to stay with the youngsters. When these get too old, I'm gonna get some younger ones. Keeps the mind active.
Art Blakey, A Night at Birdland, Vol.2 (CD),
The group evolved into a proving ground for young jazz talent. While veterans occasionally re-appeared in the group, by and large, each iteration of the Messengers included a lineup of new young players. Having the Messengers on one's resume was a rite of passage in the jazz world, and conveyed immediate bona fides.
Many Messenger alumni went on to become jazz stars in their own right, such as: Lee Morgan, Benny Golson, Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, Bobby Timmons, Curtis Fuller, Cedar Walton, Chuck Mangione, Keith Jarrett, Joanne Brackeen, Woody Shaw, Wynton Marsalis, Branford Marsalis, Terence Blanchard, Donald Harrison and Mulgrew Miller.
Miles Davis's quintets: Miles Davis Quintet was an American jazz band from 1955 to early 1969 led by Miles Davis. The quintet underwent frequent personnel changes toward its metamorphosis into a different ensemble in 1969. Most references pertain to two distinct and relatively stable bands: the First Great Quintet from 1955 to 1958; and the Second Great Quintet from late 1964 to early 1969, Davis being the only constant throughout.
1 First Great Quintet/Sextet (1955-58)
2 Second Great Quintet (1964-68)
3.1 First great quintet (1955-58)
3.2 Second great quintet (1964-69)
In the summer of 1955, Davis performed a noted set at the Newport Jazz Festival, and had been approached by Columbia Records executive George Avakian, offering a contract with the label if he could form a regular band. Davis assembled his first regular quintet to meet a commitment at the Café Bohemia in July with Sonny Rollins on tenor saxophone, Red Garland on piano, Paul Chambers on bass, and Philly Joe Jones on drums. By the autumn, Rollins had left to deal with his heroin addiction, and later in the year joined the hard bop quintet led by Clifford Brown and Max Roach.
At the recommendation of drummer Jones, Davis replaced Rollins with John Coltrane, beginning a partnership that would last five years and finalizing the Quintet's first line-up. Expanded to a sextet with the addition of Cannonball Adderley on alto saxophone in 1958, the First Great Quintet was one of the definitive hard bop groups along with the Brown-Roach Quintet and the Jazz Messengers, recording the Columbia albums Round About Midnight, Milestones, and the marathon sessions for Prestige Records resulting in five albums collected on The Legendary Prestige Quintet Sessions.
In mid-1958, Bill Evans replaced Garland on piano and Jimmy Cobb replaced Jones on drums, but Evans only lasted about six months, in turn replaced by Wynton Kelly as 1958 turned into 1959. This group backing Davis, Coltrane, and Adderley, with Evans returning for the recording sessions, recorded Kind of Blue, considered "one of the most important, influential and popular albums in jazz". Adderley left the band in September 1959 to pursue his own career, returning the line-up to a quintet. Coltrane departed in the spring of 1960, and after interim replacements Jimmy Heath and Sonny Stitt, Davis plus Kelly, Chambers, and Cobb continued through 1961 and 1962 with Hank Mobley on tenor sax.
Second Great Quintet (1964-68)
Mobley, Kelly, Chambers, and Cobb all left Davis by the end of 1962, and during 1963 he struggled to maintain a steady line-up. By the late spring, he had hired the core of the Second Quintet with Herbie Hancock on piano, Ron Carter on bass, and wunderkind Tony Williams on drums. Initially with George Coleman or Sam Rivers on tenor sax, the final piece of the puzzle would arrive in late 1964 with saxophonist Wayne Shorter.
The performance style of the Second Great Quintet was often referred to by Davis as "time, no changes", incorporating elements of free jazz without completely surrendering to the approach, allowing the five men to contribute to the group as equals rather than as a leader and sidemen peeling off unrelated solos. This band recorded the albums E.S.P., Miles Smiles, Sorcerer, Nefertiti, Miles in the Sky, and Filles de Kilimanjaro, and the live set considered by The Penguin Guide to Jazz to be their crowning achievement, The Complete Live at the Plugged Nickel 1965.
Discography is where the rubber meets the road, or the sound reaches the ear; or any other euphemism you can invent for evaluating which one is the best.
Let's compare 55-58 "Jazz Messengers"; Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers - At the Cafe Bohemia, Vol. 2 (11/23/55)
Horace Silver - Horace Silver and the Jazz Messengers (11/13/54, 2/6/55)
Horace Silver and Art Blakey / Sabu (10/9/52, 11/23/53) Art Blakey - A Night at Birdland, Vol. 1 (2/21/54)
Art Blakey - A Night at Birdland, Vol. 2 Art Blakey - Orgy in Rhythm, Volume 1 (3/7/57) Art Blakey - Orgy in Rhythm, Volume 2 (3/7/57)
Now we'll go to Miles 55-58
First great quintet (1955-58)
Miles Davis — trumpet
John Coltrane — tenor saxophone
Red Garland — piano
Paul Chambers — bass
Philly Joe Jones — drums
increased to Sextet in 1958 with Cannonball Adderly — alto saxophone
Now that I've thrown my 50 cents worth, you can throw in your 2 cents worth.
Enjoy the music
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Frogman, I really appreciated the comments on your last post. Pepper Adams is my favorite baritone sax man, and I had to play those cuts twice. Your bass player has eluded me in the past, consequently, I don't have anything meaningful to say about him.
My collection is full of Pat Metheny; he hit's the ball out of the park one time, and then fouls out the next time; but all in all I like Pat Metheny.
Next we'll be comparing Miles quintets to Art Blakey's jazz messengers.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, as you know, I have been prone to exageration ; but not much, especially when we put a short time frame on this, and end it at 1965. There is a very good reason for the time span; after that we began to get into what is, and what is not jazz; example, I saw Miles in Chicago with a buckskin vest that even had fringes on it. The music was a rehearsal for "Bitches Brew"; since there was a fellow from New York with us, and as everyone knows New Yorkers know everything, so I asked him. "What the...."?
"That's Miles new thing, group, music and all", was his response.
That was in the late 60's, after that, jazz changed forever, but it often left me on the sidelines.
"Nerfertiti" does not float my boat, but since there is no one else in my boat but me, that might not be highly relevant in the larger scheme of things. I think we should compare the two discography's between 55 and 65; that will specify the universe of where I'm coming from.
"Bobby Timmons" and "Horace Silver" were better than anybody Miles ever had on piano. Although Bobby Timmons didn't live long enough, his compositions withstood the test of time; "Moanin, Dis here, Dat Dere, and So Tired" have been used over and over by many others. The same could be said for Horace Silver; I don't have enough room for his compositions.
Lee Morgan was better than Miles on trumpet, he just didn't live long enough. Curtis Fuller on trombone was (is) fantastic; thank God he's still around, age 81.
Taking "Nefertiti" over "Nica's Dream" means you lose by a knock out; we'll have to let others decide that, but according to me, it's not even a contest.
As important as KOB was, there is no way it was "that important"; to put KOB up against all the fantastic albums that have been made since that time is absurd; "they" say a lot of absurd things.
"Moanin" by Blakey, has the same status as KOB with hard core jazz fans, and we don't claim to speak for nobody but us.
Frogman, we have fundamental different tastes in jazz; it's a "subjective" difference, there is nothing "objective" about music, because my normal reaction to Classical is "Huh", but since you're a classical musician, and many jazz musicians can go back and forth plus, Nina Simone was a classical pianist before she was a jazz vocalist, I'm sure you will find my stance unique, but that's the nature of "subjective" differences.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, calling this better than that, amplifies the subjectivity of this music. "Better" is a bad choice of words. Although the difference between Bill Evans, and Bobby Timmons is as wide as the Pacific Ocean, "better" is a word that could be left out of the discussion. Bobby Timmons music projects a philosophical, and sociological point of view, that is probably foreign to Bill Evans, and vice versa. The fact that both of these individuals can strike a piano key, and say more than a short story is incredible; however, just as frequency is all important, whenever music is sent and received by transmitter and receiver; so it is by musician and audience; they both have to be on the same wavelenth. No one has sent messages that have encompassed the depth and volume of Bobby Timmons music. People who can neither read nor write, understand Bobby Timmons musical messages. Bill Evans music is beautiful and eloquent, and comparing the two is apples and oranges. Those eloquent discussions in that documentary were an attempt to come to some "objective" conclusion in the "subjective" world of music. They would have had to include the music of "Charles Mingus" in order to bring it closer to the truth. " Fables Of Faubus" is every bit as dynamite, as the tune "Kind Of Blue" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48eAYnfgrAoAs a matter of fact, the inclusion of "Mingus Ah Um Charles Mingus" would have made the discussion more objective, and less like a "Miles Davis fan club" Enjoy the music. |
Acman, The very first record I wore out was "Clifford Brown, and Max Roach", he was my favorite drummer for ages.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I am subjective to the Nth degree when it comes to selecting and listening to jazz music. If I detect 1 objective hair on my body, I will pull it out.
My musician friend who lived with me that Summer, never practiced (that Summer). What was an improvising, performing jazz musician going to practice? He didn't just start playing jazz yesterday.
Although I had been a fan of his eight years before he moved into my apartment, I had never heard the music he was currently playing. I was truly mesmerized at each performance, never the same music. We never talked music before or after the performance. He enjoyed telling me about his life as a professional jazz musician, and I enjoyed listening.
That was 40 years ago. When I reflect back to that time, I know there was something intensely personal between him and his "new" music. When he was on stage, he went to that place where jazz musicians go; that's where it's at, either you got it or you don't; he just let his fingers fly trusting his inner muse, there was nothing "objective" about that.
I recall that he played center stage at that big 4th of July extravaganza we have under the arch every year here in St. Louis, and got rave reviews. I didn't attend, I can't stand being in the midst of a bazillion people.
The only thing I've got to personally compare, is when I went out on the tennis court and hit perfect backhands and forehands. I wasn't thinking about anything, I just kept my eye on the ball. Of course I had spent years playing and practicing before this occurred, but it would not have occurred if I had been "objectively" conscious of what I was doing.
I witnessed on TV, the best game Isaih Thomas (Detroit Pistons) ever played in his life. When he got so tired that he barely got across the half court line, he threw the ball up, and nothing but net; he couldn't miss.
After the game news people were all over him; he said everything was like in slow motion and he was in what they call, the zone.
Here is where I'm coming from, if you're going to be a star jazz musician, you have got to quit thinking "objectively" about what you're doing; either you got it or you don't, but you can not get it by practicing (when you're a performing musician) That might be just the thing for a "classical" musician, but not an improvising jazz musician.
Of course if you're not performing, you have to practice; but an improvising jazz musicians performance has to be instantaneous; otherwise it sounds "stilted", and that's not good in jazz.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, there is no universal reality; each individual should cling to his or her reality for all it's worth, because ultimately, that is the only reality.
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Frogman, Improvise means to create and perform spontaneously or without preparation. Improvise comes from the Latin word improvisus, meaning "unforeseen, unexpected." Think about when something unexpected happens to you — you have no choice but to react in the moment, or improvise.
I'm sure he, (meaning my musician friend), practiced so much that he could visualize his instrument in his sleep during his formative years. Why do so many musicians play with their eyes closed? That's because they don't need to even see the thing their playing, even when it's as complex as a "Koto". I saw June Kuramoto play the Koto most of the night with her eyes closed; she was playing improvisational jazz better than on any records I have of "Hiroshima"; with her eyes closed, I even have pictures.
You see classical musicians practicing morning noon and night; I'm sure it must be necessary; but if you are going to be improvising, playing new music that you have in your head, what are you going to practice? When improvising, each note you play, depends on the note someone else played before you; that's why good jazz musicians sound so good, because if you play a wrong note, someone else can play a note that will make it sound good, and it all comes out sounding beautiful.
Although you keep harping on the "fact" that my friend did not practice when he was performing at least three nights a week; the elephant here is "improvisation"; that's the ability to create "spontaneously"; either you got or you don't, but no amount of practice will enable you to do this.
Enjoy the music.
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Here it is, all the way live HIROSHIMA! I am 100% into this including the Tibetan aspect at the beginning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxImZTT1AEYI wanted you to see the beautiful June Kuramoto on Koto. I'm sure you can find a better picture if you like what you hear and the audio is not the best; that gal can git down on that Koto when she wants to. I saw them in the 80's at a free concert in the Botanical Gardens, and they played like I've never heard them on any records; they were feeling it, and there was a large responsive audience; that can put high energy into any group. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jme2Z0HIzQU (she was more beautiful in 1980, it don't last forever) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU3oPGanY3IThere is nothing on you tube that will provide an example of that evening, they were feeling good and just jamming. Enjoy the music. |
Let's go around the world, this is fun. Rok, when we saw that dancing in Cuba, I told you and Frogman it was structured; those drumbeats are connected to movements in dance. The dancing that accompanies this music is as structured as any European dance; they have certain movements on the beat, they have to practice. I saw dancers in the Kathryn Dunham school of dance where they are taught dances she learned in Africa. Descendants of slaves all over the Caribbean, and in Brazil still dance to these drums. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e8bUyC55ccEnjoy the music. |
Frogman, there's one thing for certain, you could never mistake Miles for anyone else; with or without the muted trumpet, he had an unmistakable sound. Maybe it's because you're a learned musician, but we have slightly different tastes; this is too laid back for me, I prefer "Walkin". Maybe you can critique that one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4egXm9LRj2IEnjoy the music. |
Rok, I'm glad you're as critical as you are, I jumped the gun on that one, scratch the drummer; you were right. I'm going to overlook your last two sentences. This is the way the Dunham Dancers moved to the beat, can you dig it? That gal is hypnotic, you have to be tuned to that frequency in order to dig it, but your tuner can't get that channel, it's busted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwR1V5w_KB8If this girl got a cd out, I'm going to order it tonight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCkRAPG7sZQCuba is where it's at. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I played it twice in order to focus on the sound of each instrument; I didn't know all of the reeds; different types of clarinets, oboes, and bassoons, or were some just black wood, and others metal.
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Thank you Frogman, and Rok; now that I can see the instrument when it's being played, I know precisely what sound it makes, fortunately I like Bolero, because I'll be playing it over and over. I can pipe it into the big rig and check my speakers. Maybe this is my first lesson in "objectivity".
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I like the way you answered that. I know I would hate to be competing with "Bags" and Lionel Hampton.
Since I like vibes, I will most certainly add more of his CD's to my collection. I'll let yall know what I have chosen after I do the "you tube" thing
Enjoy the music. |
David Pike is someone I haven't heard a lot of, or about, and I can't figure why not? I have him on a CD, "Pike's Peak", that doesn't have one weak cut on it, they all rate 4 stars at least, plus Bill Evans is on piano. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NHC_CNpBLkDavid Samuel Pike (March 23, 1938 – October 3, 2015) was a jazz vibraphone and marimba player. He appears on many Herbie Mann albums as well as those by Bill Evans, Nick Brignola, Paul Bley and Kenny Clarke. He also recorded extensively as leader, including a number of albums on MPS Records. All Smiles (MPS, 1968) With Herbie Mann The Family of Mann (Atlantic, 1961) Herbie Mann Returns to the Village Gate (Atlantic, 1961 [1963]) Herbie Mann Live at Newport (Atlantic, 1963) My Kinda Groove (Atlantic, 1964) Herbie Mann Plays The Roar of the Greasepaint – The Smell of the Crowd (Atlantic, 1965) Monday Night at the Village Gate (Atlantic, 1965 [1966]) Latin Mann (Columbia, 1965) Well Frogman, according to "There's a reason they are not well Known", how does David Pike fit? Enjoy the music. |
Sorry folks, this is ending before it began; Pike's CD's run from $20 t0 $40, and that's too rich for my blood.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave Pike's CD's are running $20 used; it seems as soon as I want to buy somebody's CD's, the price goes up; it's a conspiracy. There are no stores that sell CD's close buy, they all went out of business, and now they're raising the prices on line. First Leon Thomas, and now Dave pike; do those people's estates get more money, or just the record companies see more profit? |
Rok, Frogman, Alex; David Pike is the subject; he has a lot of music that I've never heard before, and according to my sensibilities, it's all good music. Why don't we visit "you tube", and get back together with our favorites by him, or discuss why you don't like David Pike if it turns out that way; see you in a bit.
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Learsfool, your whole post was "wack". I had no idea there was so much difference between a jazz musician, and a classical musician. The only thing you can practice is a written piece of music, or you can practice familiarity with your musical instrument.
This is what it is about; to have a musical idea in your head, and to make your instrument audibly produce that sound exactly as you hear it in your head. That means your brain extends through your hands into the musical instrument and the precise sound you want to hear comes out.
The more I talk about this the clearer it becomes. Simply because others don't believe what I'm saying, only means they can't do it. How specific can I be in regard to the time he practiced, 00 during one summer when he lived in my apartment. Before that time, he had a number of jazz albums that he led, and many more where he was a side man with some of the musicians we have talked about ad infinitum. I have all of those albums and I listen to them frequently. None of those albums have the same music he was performing three nights a week to packed houses; he was in no way new to St. Louis fans and musicians.
I was mesmerized at each performance, and since I drove him to each performance (in the deuce) I never missed a one. Jazz musicians in St. Louis have performed as sidemen with practically all the famous jazz musicians we have discussed. A local musician I've known for a long time, showed me his photographic portfolio where he performed with the musicians we have discussed when they came to St. Louis, and needed his particular instrument. My friend had no trouble in getting accomplished jazz musicians on whatever other instruments he chose.
Jazz is really the best music to represent America because: It is partly planned and partly spontaneous; that is, as the musicians perform a pre-determined tune, they have the opportunity to create their own interpretations within that tune in response to the other musicians' performances and whatever else may occur "in the moment" -- this is called improvisation and is the defining element of jazz. Improvisation is the key element of jazz. There is no better example of democracy than a jazz ensemble: individual freedom but with responsibility to the group. In other words, individual musicians have the freedom to express themselves on their instrument as long as they maintain their responsibility to the other musicians by adhering to the overall framework and structure of the tune. He was the leader and they discussed for about an hour before they went on stage what was to take place. I looked and listened, but I might as well been looking and listening to Martians, musician talk is Greek to me.
These musicians did not play any standard tunes; that's why the house was packed, his fans did not come to hear "Stardust", they came to hear him "wail", jam, rock the house; they came to hear him, and he was like a wild man on his instrument.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I know you and Rok, are sick and tired of this, so am I, but it will go on until it ends.
When you see pictures of Miles talking to Coltrane, Cannonball, or Gil Evans, there is always written music in front of them. When these guys talked about what they were going to do before the event, there was no written music. I never recall seeing any "written music" at any time; now you can make whatever you like out of that.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I stated that was the Summer he was in my apartment. I'm sure he practiced morning noon and night in order to get so proficient with such a complex instrument, also his mother taught him, that's in his bio. He was playing before he started school and in the church.
I was talking to a musician friend of mine, telling him how good my other friend was.
"He was good, but he wasn't that good", was his reply. I'll show him I thought; that's when I bought every record I could find of him as leader or sideman. None of those records had the music he was playing that summer. He died not long after he left my apartment, and none of that music was recorded; consequently everything I have uttered about him is "moot", since I can not proof anything about the music he was playing. Of course his musician friends knew he was at my apartment that Summer, but I have no proof what so ever in regard to the music.
You can conclude this any way you like, and we can call it concluded.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, You are saying exactly what I knew you would say; by definition, you can not practice "improvising" , and that's that. East is East, and West is West, never the twain shall meet. The fact that you both are accomplished musicians doesn't change anything; the sky is still blue.
Enjoy the music. |
Rok, your post is total "wack". He wasn't a local musician, and he was still getting checks from "Blue Note", why don't you read all of my posts, and when you read them, if you read them, go slowly and you might get the real picture and not the picture you want to get.
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Learsfool, I don't want you to leave this thread, but if you and Frogman make an absurd statement in unison, the fact that you both are accomplished musicians, will make it no less absurd.
You can not practice "improvisation"; how can you answer a question that has not even been asked? And you are saying that you can practice answering questions that have not been asked. If that's not absurd, I would like to know what is. "Improvisation" is spontaneously playing music, the right music, that fits in after the soloist before you. Now explain to me, how you can practice that?
You go on to state,
"Honestly, O-10, any good student musician, and certainly all professionals, can do what you are talking about here, no matter what type of music they play. Your last sentence above is truly absurd for this reason."
That statement was too "wack" for words. You are saying any student musician can do what Oscar Peterson, Sonny Rollins, and J. J. Johnson wished they could do; they wished they could transfer their thoughts to their musical instrument.
That last paragraph is almost comical: You are bothered by my "anti- intellectualism", and Frogman is bothered by my arrogance. As they used to say in USAF, My heart pumps purple panther piss for the both of you.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, that was a very good link, and as far as I know, before "that Summer" he lived by it. During the time he was in my apartment, it's quite possible he would have liked to practice, but it was impossible. I'm only stating what I witnessed, no less and no more.
As I reflect back to that time, I believe he knew his time was short, and nothing was more important than to get approval for his "new music" from the people, his fans; and he got that when we went to the clubs, he even played center stage under the ARCH here in St. Louis on the 4th of July. You can't get no bigger crowd than that, and he got rave reviews.
This is in no way about my philosophy of practicing or not practicing; I'm just giving an account of what I witnessed during one of the most glorious Summers in my life. Rok, you have already given his "old music" four and a half stars, maybe you would give his new music an even 5 if you could hear it. May he rest in peace.
Enjoy the music.
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After seeing David Pike for $40, I decided to go through my collection and dig out all that crap I bought based on "Stereophile's" recommendations, it ain't worth 2 cents. The stuff I don't want, nobody else wants it either, even when it was recommended by Stereophile. My music collection (the good stuff) is like the house I'm living in, whether the price goes up or down, I ain't selling.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, we can walk and chew gum at the same time. |
Big mistake, I thought Fred Jackson played the organ, but it was "Earl Van Dyke" on Organ. Since organ is the subject, that's good enough. |
Rok, go back to my post 02-27-2016, 11: 49 AM |
We seem to be in a "phase locked loop". I'm going to extract myself and move on. Although David Pike's CD's cost more than most, his music is certainly more interesting than most. He covers a wide range of sounds that were popular in the 60's, from what I've heard so far, and I've only scratched the surface. In my 2-25-16 post, I mentioned "Pike's Peak" that I have in my collection; it stands repetition quite well, and that's an important quality, "repeated listening" means you can put it in a play list, and not throw it out when it comes up again. I'm moving on to "Bossa Nova Carnival" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRPDW2XIly4 on this page we find a few more of his works. I would like for you to review which ever CD you choose, and get back to us with that review. That will enable us to make better and quicker decisions on "new music". One of the purposes of this thread is to aid in the acquisition of new music. This is our life's blood, and what makes us different from many other audiophiles. Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, "professional athletes" practice, every "professional" practices. I made a statement that was taken way out of context, and we're still off to the races about that statement, although it was a very significant statement.
Let me expound on the important elements of that statement. You can not practice "improvisation"; every night that he was on the stage in front of a crowd, he was practicing because every night he was improvising.
I was talking about one uniquely gifted individual who had mastered his very complex instrument some time ago. Since he was performing three nights a week, there was absolutely no need for some kind of ritualistic practicing. Everything he was playing was in his head; this was music he needed to play, and get approval of, not from some teacher at "Julee yard", but from "his public", the people who knew him, and came to see and hear him.
I have never liked what's called "free jazz", it sounds like someone just playing a bunch of notes very fast, but when he played a lot of music fast, it was coherent and I understood it. The only thing I can compare to what he was playing is "Bird's Best Bop"; no matter how fast, and how much music Bird plays, it's coherent. Other musicians can attempt this, but they always fail, he was doing it.
This is as good as I can get in clarifying a unique situation, with a unique individual.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, this stuff is getting outrageous, I would appreciate if you and Acman went back to my post at 11:49 today, and we proceeded from there. |
I've got that on record, with a big pretty picture of Randy; that's the only thing I miss about records. Her voice is smooth as silk, and the music behind her is fantastic on "Give Me The Night". That always reminds me of Atlanta, "The New York of the South", it was a fun town during the disco era.
I've been hearing some new female vocalists on this jazz station, but I have to get their play list in order to know who I'm listening to; they just play one song after another without announcing who it is. But pickings from the known female vocalists is slim.
Randy was a nice change of pace for me, it doesn't seem like she's been around that long.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I was thinking those same thoughts before I read your post. Nice easy listening music, but not nice enough for me to rush out and buy it. After acquiring the best jazz of two decades, we're kind of hard to please.
I like to listen, and then go through Nica's book, it seems as though I'm looking at old friends. As a matter of fact I've been looking at some other photo books, but after Nica's I feel that I would be disappointed.
Clark Terry's "Color Changes" is not for casual listners, it's to be savored, like the kind of cognac you pour in a brandy snifter, it's got some heavy personnel; Clark Terry - trumpet, flugelhorn
Yusef Lateef - tenor saxophone, flute, English horn, oboe
Seldon Powell - tenor saxophone, flute
Julius Watkins - French horn
Jimmy Knepper - trombone
Tommy Flanagan - piano
Budd Johnson - piano (track 6)
Joe Benjamin - bass
Ed Shaughnessy - drums
Julius Watkins was with Miles and Gil Evans, it's not often you hear French horn in jazz. I like Yusef Lateef best on those strange kind of flutes he plays.
I'm not quite sure where we go from here, but I've been hearing some interesting female vocalists on the jazz station. If you think of anything, post it.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, at this point I prefer that everyone assume there never was any friend, and I made the whole thing up. |
Instead of posting, I decided to "re-post" your's
Seems like I have seen or been in this movie before. A certain person throws a hissy-fit, and storms off the thread. Then we have all these previously unknown and unheard 'supporters' 'coming forward' to say things like "you did your best", "they are beyond help", "why do you even bother", "you fought the good fight", etc........ oops almost forget the most dreaded of all "they are arrogant".
Now I have asked this question before, with no answer. There is never an answer. But, since you are sort of new as a poster I thought maybe you could answer this question.
Exactly what is it that certain people are trying to teach us, that we, because of our ignorance and / or arrogance just don't seem to get?
If I knew the answer to this, perhaps the whole thread would be different and more civil. Please answer if you feel you can. And in DETAIL with examples.
I would also like the answer to those questions.
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Rok, you asked the questions at 02:09PM and I re-posted your question at 03:56 PM,and it is now 08:25PM. When are we going to get answers? I'm patient, I can wait till the swallows come back to Capistrano, or the cows come home, whichever comes first.
Do you think your questions will get answered?
In the meantime, enjoy the music, I know I am
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