Jazz for aficionados

maghister, I like music that rides between genres. I’m listening to Herbie Hancock’s "River," a tribute to Joni Mitchell who was much interested in jazz. I saw him at the Hollywood Bowl do the album "River." One thing I remember, the bass player was in the back where bass players usually are. But it was Esperanza Spalding and her fingers were like a fast, fast spider splaying all over that finger board. I couldn’t take my eyes off her. She really dominated that concert. 

wharfy, I know a lot of rock bands have covered Mose Allison’s songs. I’m not sure which have covered what, though. Several times a year, I get out of bed and say to myself, "I have to listen to Mose today." 

I’m not a straight-up jazz listener. I like all kinds of music, but I also like all kinds of jazz adjacent music. If Mose  is just playing jazz, then he’s a jazzman. If he’s playing and singing, he’s not exactly a jazz singer  but his piano is playing jazz.

I’m a big Gato Barbieri fan. I don’t have "Fenix," though. I’ll stream it. Thanks for mentioning it.

frogman, mahgister, stuartk, I want to probe a bit and see if we can define the boundaries of jazz. So, I'm going to start with a performer who might or might not be a "jazz" performer: Frank Sinatra. What do you think?

curiousjim, glad I could get your toes tapping!

stuartk, the reason I mentioned Sinatra was because many musicians and singers have called him a genius. He lost his voice early on in his career, I think when he was in his twenties. Early Sinatra sounds much like Bing Crosby. Sinatra made up for the problems with his voice by inventing new phrasing, and it is this phrasing that other musicians refer to as his genius. I wondered if that phrasing would give him a place in the jazz world along with Billie Holiday and Ella Fitzgerald. Every New Years I am absolutely blown away that New York is still playing Sinatra's "New York, New York." He was born 110 years ago and died 27 years ago and I still hear him everywhere, as I do with Ella Fitzgerald.

I grew up listening to Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughn, and I don't know who else remembers Louis Prima and Keely Smith. Jazz was all around but I didn't think of it as jazz. It was just the music my parents were playing. And, of course, Sinatra was all around.

I'm listening to the Belgian musician Toots Thielemans, the preeminent jazz harmonica player. "The Soul of Toots Thielemans" if you want to stream it for a taste. 

I went to hear Kurt Elling sing last year. He uses his voice as a jazz instrument. I knew it was true jazz because my wife couldn't stand it.

acman3, thanks for finding that article. That's what I was talking about when I said other musicians regard him highly. On the level of Billie Holiday! High praise.

mahgister, on the topic of Persian singers I have a story. I was a pretty wild young guy at 21. My girlfriend and I had $300 and two charter tickets to London. From London we hitched through Europe, mostly took trains through Turkey, but in Iran, people wanted to pick us up to speak English. Plus my girlfriend was beautfiul.

We were theoretically going to India, but were running out of money. We hit the last town in Iran before Aghanistan. Very religious. One guy pulled a knife on us simply for being infidels. We had a local who was showing us around and he took us into a club, I guess you'd call it. And I was floored because the Iranians at the border were so religious, but on stage was a woman singer, and she had one of the most soulful voices I've ever heard.

mahgister, thanks for the music!

stuartk, I have a lot of Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughn, and Billie Holiday albums. They often don't improvise except in the way they interpret songs, like Frank Sinatra. No doubt, Fitzergerald can scat with the best of them, but she doesn't always feel the need. So, I don't think improvisation is a necessary attribute of jazz. BTW, I think you didn't like Tania Maria, but she can scat like nobody's business.

stuartk, I don't define jazz vocals as scatting. Billy Holiday does not scat on the records I have by her.

I think where we're diverging is that I like to be lost. I like to pose questions I can't answer, and I don't feel the need to know the answer.

I spent 10 years writing a novel about a Holocaust survivor who had been an assassin and could no longer love. I was in uncharted territory (this was about twenty years ago) and loved being there. I like research. I am now working on a book asking a question which I don't think anyone else has ever asked, and I have no definitive answer. I feel like an explorer.

I have no answer about jazz, either. I just wanted to hear what other people thought. And apparently other people have more definite ideas than I do. So far, I'm kind of taking from all this that perhaps thinking in musical genres is not such a great thing. 

stuartk, you're not understanding me at all. When I hear a jazz group I can hear what is planned and when a musician goes into improvisation. That's a no brainer. Coltrane on "My Favorite Things" plays with his band the setup going through the melody a few times. Then he goes off on his own and flies high above the band who is just trying to keep up with him. I think I understand jazz a lot better than you think I do. 

When L.A. had a commercial jazz station they would play what they called "soft" jazz. Sade, Diana Krall, maybe Davis playing "Some Day My Prince Will Come," and Trane playing something off his album "Ballads." I have an extremely abstract ear from listening to "modern" abstract classical. Shostakovich, Bartok, Stravinsky. In modern classical music the beat can be all over the place. Listen to Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. 

I think in the jazz you're talking about nobody is on the beat yet it is implied and they all know where it is. And I know where it is. Coltrane often plays like that. And Davis on some of his later stuff. Bebop has syncopation. 

In classical music, there is light classical, early classical with composers like Bach, and even up to Mozart. Then the Romantic Era begins with Beethoven and people see that as a more serious classical. And more difficult classical comes with 20th century and 21st century classical.

It would be so difficult for me to explain to you my understanding of music, but it begins in the Upper Paleolithic with people who lived in caves. I know nobody knows what that music sounded like, but I think I know why they made music. It was a spititual thing. Just like Coltrane, Sanders, and Davis felt their music was spiritual. And I believe the shamans and creative artists were women. But that's another argument.

I'll stop with this. But I think you're really underestimating my understanding of jazz.

stuartk, sorry for my tirade. I have to admit that I felt insulted by what you said. I have mentioned how many live jazz concerts I have attended. How would it be possible for me to see so many live jazz concerts and not know what improvisation is? You can see it. Sometimes the band has musical scores which they look at for the setup and then the improviser goes off on their own and the backup no longer look at their scores. 

In regards to being lost, Malcolm Gladwell talks about types of artists in a New Yorker article called "Late Bloomers." He talks about two kinds of artists. One is exemplified by Picasso whom Gladwell says saw what he was going to paint in his head and then executed it. The other was exemplified by Cezanne who had to find his painting on the canvas while he was working. Action painters like de Kooning and Pollock were lost until they found themselves on the canvas. Another example might be Agatha Christie who did not know the ending of her crime novel until she got there. I think a lot of jazz musicians are lost until they find themselves in the spur of the moment on their instrument. That’s what I mean when I say I like being lost.

mahgister, very interesting what you say. I’m particularly interested in the word "gesture." What exactly do you mean by a musical gesture?

maghister, wharfy, I think I understand the concept of a musical gesture. The musical impulse must begin in a human who then has to embody that internal gesture into music, poetry, dance, etc. I think, however, that you are talking about music with a spiritual component. By "spiritual" we may mean different things, but I'll leave it for now.

In my poem on Coltrane, I said music comes from the streets, because if you study music it might seem it came from the courts. We must remember that up until Beethoven musicians wrote solely for royalty, and even Beethoven tried to curry the favor of royalty. Therefore, all music had to have pleased the lord for whom it was written. This is still true to some extent in that most musicians write to please the masses. And that has little to do with spirituality in music.

I think we should separate music with a spiritual impulse from "chamber" music. To me, some jazz resembles chamber music in that it does not have that spiritual component informing its musical gestures. 

When Parker played bebop it came from his soul. That is not necessarily true of those who followed him. Coltrane infused his music with his own original musical gestures. (Hope I'm using that word correctly.) John Klemmer who was influenced by Trane was just copying the man, but had no soul.. That's why we call him commercial.

Since you brought up poetry, I know all about embodying words with the gesture. My poetry becomes more spiritual the more "lost" I become. In other words, I can't think through it. I just do it. And my best poems have been written that way. 

In some jazz, although they have improvisation, the improvisation seems "of a piece" with the composition not rising above the written music. When a spiritual musician goes off on a riff, it rises very high into the stratospheres. 

I disagree with mahgister about his assumption that music was written by men on their hunts. As difficult as it's going to be we need to get beyond the patriarchal lens. Yes, we think of men making art because they have for all the history we know of. I think the first music was integrated with art (body painting and adorrment) and was practiced by men and women. They were first acknowledging their own existence and second expressing awe that their existence was part of the existence of the universe. I'll stop here because it becomes complicated and I don't want to start citing books on the subject.

I think it was frogman who asked me why I said men swagger with their shoulders and women swagger with their hips. It is because jazz is about swagger, and I was saying that women express themselves artistically differently than men. This difference in the genders is being noticed and embraced among most arts. mahgister mentioned Furtwangler. I hold series tickets to the L.A. Phil and have heard the most important living conductors (which obviously doesn't include Furtwangler). The most exciting conductor I have heard is a woman named Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla. I'd tell you more but this is a jazz thread.

I have been attending jazz concerts for over sixty years. One of the most innovative and interesting saxaphonists I have heard is Melissa Aldana. She is young, 36 years old, but obviously brilliant. She composes the music on her album, and whether you like it or not, it is like nothing else you have heard in jazz. I think as jazz aficionados we should all keep our ears open for new, young sounds. Here is a cut from her newest album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1hObK9HiGA

I'm listening to Randy Weston. Like him a lot.

I rewatched the first episode of the documenatary "Jazz" last night. Wynton Maralis was their go-to man on the origins of Jazz in New Orleans. The first part went from slavery in the early 1800's up through Ragtime and ended with a tease on Louis Armstrong. The next episode will be much about him and his genius which I had not recognized until I saw this documentary the first time, maybe 15 years ago or more.

stuartk, I don't think their art/music has to do with their personalities. I could use actors as a comparison. Personally, some actors are quite modest while others like to fill a room full of people at a party. On stage, they all must "swagger," whether that means playing a timid part or large part. 

You think about a musician improvising, they have to bring out their inner musical "swagger." (Perhaps a bad word.) In the documentary on jazz, Wynton Marsalis said that jazz was about the musician showing their "personality." And perhaps that is a better word than swagger. He used a very interesting metaphor of a writer and a pencil. The pencil doesn't write the story, the writer does. He was talking about Buddy Bolden who is considered the first jazz musician. Marsalis said that Bolden's coronet did not play the music, Bodlen did. And apparently he had plenty of swagger.

One other thing about the first episode of the documentary "Jazz" that really struck me was that for about four decades jazz was the most popular music in the country. That's when people could dance to jazz. I think somewhere in the fifties (after Parker?), it became more cerebral and the mass audience went elsewhere, to rock n' roll, I would guess. Although some jazz players, most of whom I think would be eschewed in this thread, like Diana Krall and Herbie Hancock (he played the tribute to Joni Mitchell in the Hollywood Bowl), most jazz players play in small clubs to a selective, more "cerebral" audience who aren't dancing.

Although I like straight-up jazz (I was playing an album of Tina Brooks yesterday), i love jazz that has a dance beat and makes me want to get up off my chair. Lizz Wright has that quality. Here is an excerpt from a review about her in Downbeat:

"Lizz Wright comes to her music with equal parts gospel, jazz, r&b and blues. The alto vibrations of her dark-toned, rich voice would sound at home in any church, jazz club, theater or even arena. She’s just that versatile as an artist."  

stuartk, let me elaborate just a bit on the feminine angle. On Melissa Aldana's last album "12 Stars," the Chilean sax player has a song she wrote called "Emilia." Aldana is 36, a woman of childbearing age. When she played the song, she explained that "Emilia" was to the child she had never had. Not a subject a man would write a song about.

I find the melody haunting and played in a way that I could not imagine a man playing. She rarely blasts the sax, and when she does it is not nearly as strong as Trane or any other male sax player I've heard. Her notes are gentle and wavering, and I find them to be haunting. There is an innate difference between her jazz and male jazz.

This, I think, was not so true in the past. I would not have said that Carla Bley's sound was obviously feminine. Women in all the arts, however, are beginning to express a sentiment that they would not have in the past, because they wanted to be accepted in the man's world of jazz. Singers, aside, of course. We have always wanted our female singers to sound feminine and express the entire panoply of the feminine experience. Even in a deeply religious part of 1968 Iran.

Why do I care? Because like curiousjim, I am curious about what is happening now. I like new things and experiences. And we live in an extremely important time when women are expressing their entire selves and men, as usual, are trying to slap them back. We see this in many, many goverrnments around the world, often expressed with the backing of religion.

curiousjim, thanks. I'm always looking for something different. Mediterranean sounds good. I often go to the Absolute Sound music reviews. That's where I found out about Lizz Wright's new recording "Holding Space." You can only stream it, though. 

I have been listening to a Keith Jarrett album with Charlie Haden. Just the two of them. They do standards. It's very mellow, if you're in that kind of mood.

curiousjim, I like Sharel Cassidy. I'll stream one of her albums.

frogman, thank you for the long post responding to my various posts. You have more of an understanding of the structure of music and a vocabulary to discuss it than I ever will. I think that also helps with an appreciation of music, but I’ve loved music from an ignorant standpoint for as long as I can remember. I’m not saying that as a dig. I’m just saying that most people who love music do not have your knowledge about how it works.

I’d like to respond to the points you bring up about my posts, but first I’d like to tell you how I view music’s value to humanity. I think the arts, including music, defined Homos sapiens. The previous species of Homos (erectus, etc.) did not seem to make art. (I’ll leave Neanderthals out of the discussion.) I imagine early humans used music as a way to express their awe at belonging to the universe. And this I call spirituality. And this spirituality I hear in Coltrane’s music in spades.

Now why do I get into this whole subject of women? It is my belief that up until about seven or eight thousand years ago women had an equal (or greater place) in terms of creating art. About the time the Greeks began philosophizing and the Hebrews began writing the Torah, women were cut out of philosophizing and art making. And it’s not until my generation that they have begun to claw back an equal place.

Do women have a different sense of artistic expression? As a trained poet who has watched women change poetry in my lifetime, and change visual arts, I believe I have also watched them change music. And this is too long a discussion for here, because I’d have to go through numerous examples of where I’ve witnessed this. Like everything else, I think music has been a boys’ club. What has been lost in music? Hopefully we’ll find out. I think of it as the Feminine Creative Spirit. And that’s too huge a topic to get into here, but I think it goes beyond the arts.

On the question of feminine versus masculine swagger, please listen to this cut from Melissa Aldana and tell me whether or not you hear a feminine approach. To my ear it is very clear, but perhaps I’m just hearing what I want to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqVOMc3_eDE

On the question of "chamber" music, I think I haven’t been able to express myself because of my poor vocabulary about music. I am talking about music written for the chambers of lords and ladies of the court. Music written to please the court and to be pleasant to the ear. Although the lower classes and uneducated people did go to Shakespeare plays (which speaks highly of the poet), I don’t think they listened to what is referred to as "classical" music. I put that in quotes because classical is also a period of music following baroque. The composers of the classical period had long bored me especially in comparison to the Romantics and beyond. Now that I have become an old man, I appreciate Papa Haydn and Mozart more. I have always loved Bach.

In a sense, I can compare the Romantics with jazz. Here’s where I’m talking about in my poem to John Coltrane 

"music wasn’t doled
 out over cloistered walls
 it comes from the streets
 where women’s bodies
 turn  rags to style"

The cloistered walls I refer to are the walls of nobility’s castles and the church. Although, I must admit that I love the masses of Bach, Mozart, and many others. I think these composers are able to go beyond the liturgical to a deep spiritual well from which music comes. And from which jazz comes thanks to mostly musically uneducated folks who were touched as I say in my Coltrane poem:

"& think that grace lands anyplace  
 like snowflakes
 promiscuously kissing faces"

In other words, a snowflake promiscuously kissedd Louis Armstrong’s face. Since music comes from the human soul, he didn’t need a formal education. And I'm sure you know I can't leave out Mozart when I talk about the snowflake's blessing. He was writing symphonies in his early teens. 

I appreciate your elaboration of the meaning of "gesture" in music. I understand it far better now. I had to smile because Simon Rattle was conducting your example of Mozart’s 4oth. I got to go backstage and meet him once and he had a big thick notebook with jokes about violists. Of all the things I didn’t think I’d see when I went to meet Sir Simon Rattle.

I hope I was a bit more clear in this overly long post. I don’t think you and I would disagree about much in regards to what is good music. I think our disagreement is more in terms of talking about music, and I think this is mostly my fault. I have written about many things before, but not music. 
 

frogman, BTW, I have a number of Beethoven's string quartets on vinyl. His last ones sound as though they were written in the 20th century. I have no idea how he was able to make those musical leaps. I heard one of his early piano sonatas played live (first, second, or third?). You would understand how to describe the leaps he took from one musical gesture to the other, but I turned to the guy sitting next to me and said, "That sounded like jazz." 

frogman, so funny that you're hip to the violist jokes. At the L.A. Phil we had a lead violist named Carrie Dennis. She must have been one of the best violists in the world. In her twenties she was chosen as the L.A. Phil's lead violist but she went to Berlin instead. Then she came back to the L.A.a Phil. She used to sway her body like crazy to pretty much any composer. I used to like to watch her. She brought the concerts to life. She performed Bartok's Viola Concerto in bare feet. Then one day she did not come to work. She disappeared, and as far as I know, nobody knows where she is.

acman3, it has taken me years of working on a book to try to get across my ideas on the Feminine Creative Spirit. I don't know how much you know about physics, but there is a concept called entropy. Basically, it says that forms will eventually dissolve and become white noise. The universe will become white noise (particles scattered without form). Yet the universe has been around 14 billion years and it just keeps getting more complicated and more orderly. Something is missing in our male view of the universe. And it is male, just think of all the famous physicists you can think of. Physics' concepts have been designed by males. There is something we're not seeing. Richard Parnass writes about this in his book "The Passion of the Western Mind." He says our science is based on left-brain, logical thinking and we need to engage our right brains more. Einstein might be an exception because when he was a child he dreamed about traveling on a light beam.

But let me give you a quick perception about jazz that is indisputable. Female vocalists are not different than male vocalists simply because their voices are higher. Women convey a song differently than men because feminine expression is different than masculine expression. I don't know why this shouldn't prove true across the board. I don't think there have been enough female musicians (other than singers) for us to see that difference. Any females on this thread? That's another issue. 

I'm in with your brother and I think females will stand on their own excellence but it will take males some time to understand it. Actually, I think it will take the Feminine Creative Spirit to save our asses, because male-think is about to descend us into social entropy. 

mahgister, first of all I think it is so cool you've read Richard Tarnas. And you are right, he did not talk about things in terms of masculine and feminine. That is why what I'm doing is so difficult. Nobody has really broken down our history by gender. But in my reading I have found a history of the suppression of women. It is clear to me when and where it happened and the consequences. Now that I've been studying it, I see the results all around me. And I have the difficult job of making others see what I see.

I agree with you that we all have a degree of both sexes, and I like your examples of Chet Baker and the amazing Roland Kirk of the many horns in his mouth at once. Male artists, as opposed to men in general, are most likely to embrace their feminine. I have recognized the feminine in myself, although my masculine side is pretty strong. Probably one of the reasons I'm trying to see the feminine. 

Yet we must admit and see that we live in a patriarchy. This is not just feminist BS. Look at the countries around the world that suppress their women to various degrees. Or in order to succeed their women learn to adapt to the patriarchy. It's a fact that men have developed thought all around the world. We mostly have read male writers in school, although that is changing, partly because women read more than men, especially fiction. Sociologically, psychologically, and politically, patriarchy has reigned. Western music is a product of male minds, with very few exceptions mostly occurring from the latter half of the 1800s onward. 

Yet, to your point, men who suppress the feminine in themselves long for it. Look at all the poets who have called upon the female muse. In jazz, we have loved our female singers and still do. Religions that have suppressed women still have a female aspect. Mary in Christianity, the Shekinah in Judaism, and I have read that there are feminine aspects to Islam. 

I am convinced that women were the strongest force in spirituality and the arts, but I can't go on too long here talking about history. I will look at Iain McGilchrist, though. Thanks for mentioning him.

Looking over Absolute Sound's music reviews I came across Branford Marsalis's remake of Keith Jarrett's "Belonging." I loved Marsalis's take on "Belonging" and went back to Jarrett's "Belonging." I don't know how I've missed it before. Jarrett's one of my favorites. Both versions are spectacular. Both of very high quality on Qubuz, too. 

acman3, thanks for the posts. I'll check them out.

frogman, I remember the beginning of one violist joke but not the ending: "The conductor and violist are walking across a cross walk, who do you hit first?" Do you know it? 

On my turntable this morning a jazz album that has long been one of my favorites: 

Amarcord Nino Rota = I Remember Nino Rota (Interpretations Of Nino Rota's Music From The Films Of Federico Fellini)

For Fellini fans or those with a European bent to their jazz. Personell include Jaki Byard, Bill Frisell, Wynton and Branford Marsalis, Kenny Barron, and many more. A taste: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJXz7CQ3xVk&list=PLwGTKZ6uNxXkUb4E3nR6K6Sz0F1gUHGP0&index=2

@tyray, when stuartk told me about Wayne Shorter, I liked his album "Speak No Evil" so much I thought about buying it on vinyl. On Qobuz, however, it's recorded at 192 khz resolution. That's so close to vinyl there's no need. 

Isao Suzuki's "Orpheus," the best recorded album in my collection. But also a winner for pure enjoyment. Suzuki plays a double bass that will twang your woofers.

https://www.google.com/search?q=isao+suzuki+orpheus&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS945US945&oq=&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgBECMYJxjqAjIJCAAQIxgnGOoCMgkIARAjGCcY6gIyCQgCECMYJxjqAjIJCAMQLhgnGOoCMgkIBBAjGCcY6gIyCQgFECMYJxjqAjIJCAYQIxgnGOoCMgkIBxAjGCcY6gLSAQkyNTg2ajBqMTWoAgiwAgHxBQhKzEHEut5h&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:22df1ea7,vid:hNQks70yqr0,st:0

Yusef Lateef "Love Song From Spartacus," a gorgeous melody taken from the ballet written by Aram Khachaturian, off Lateef's great "Eastern Sounds" album.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhqQFs7huwU

Morgana King has been one of my favorite jazz singers for a long time. She had a four-octave contralto voice that carried a lot of emotion. Her most famous song "A Taste of Honey"

https://www.google.com/search?q=morgana+king+a+taste+of+honey+youtube&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS945US945&oq=MORgana+king+a+taste+of+honey+you&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgBECEYoAEyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRiPAtIBCjIxMzkzajFqMTWoAgmwAgHxBTF_qzQEtVpc&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:d617be95,vid:hvDkr5t-GIQ,st:0

@curiousjim, I listened to Mal Waldron. It was a bit sparse for my taste and the bass/drum drone made it seem flat. I don't know if Waldron has that kind of vibe on his other albums. I will listen to him some more. A drone-type bass beat I do like can be found on Alice Coltrane's Journey in Satchidananda. In that case, the drone is like an Indian spiritual thing, and Pharoah Sanders' sax is as spiritual as John Coltrane was. One of my favorite albums. 

@frogman, now you’re venturing into my territory. Try this taste by the Paul Butterfield Blues Band with Mike Bloomfield considered one of the great blues guitarists. (He died young.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ5tbyW6NKM

@curiousjim, I listened to Mal Waldron's "Free at Last.." I liked it a lot. I'm still listening. Sometimes he reminds me of Keith Jarrett, perhaps my favorite jazz pianist. He's very good and I'm glad to have found him. I might have liked this album better than Glory because I was in a more open mood, or perhaps because Glory was recorded 44.1 khz, like a CD, whereas this one is at 96 khz and delivers a lot more depth on my stereo. It's especially important for the drums which have all kinds of soundstage cues that were flattened out on Glory.

Wow! So much music, so little time. Even for me who listens all morning and most of the afternoon while I write, or at least try to. Sidenote: I wrote a poem for my novel and I wanted to make sure its meaning could be gleaned by at least someone on earth. I put it through chatgbt which I've avoided, within 5 seconds it had the most brillian analysis. I wonder if it will work for music?

@tyray, "A Taste of Honey" has always gotten to me, ever since I saw the movie in the early sixties. I think there have been a number of versions. On the "Orpheus" album, "Manha De Carnaval" is from the film "Black Orpheus." It's been covered more times than I know about. Vince Guaraldi did perhaps one of the most famous covers on "Jazz Impressions of Black Orpheus." It was a must have when I began collecting jazz albums in the 60s and 70s. 

@stuartk and @foggyus91, I learned about Cuban jazz through David Byrne who has also done a number of albums on Brazilian jazz. I picked up a number of CDs of artists I liked from "The Buena Vista Social Club," like Omara Portuondo. I will look into some of your suggestions.

This morning I have been listening to the wonderful Rosa Passos. First, her CD called "Rosa Passos & Ron Carter." But even better, I think, is Rosa Passos"s "Amorosa." This is a daring redo of Joao Gliberto's (of Getz Gilberto fame) "Amorosa." This might be a bit too syrupy for some like @foggyus91. My interpretation of syrupy at this point, until someone educates me, is that the music goes to your hips rather than your head. Broad brush, I know. Here's a sweet taste and I'll drink down all the syrup I can get.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rosa+passos+voce+vai+ver+youtube&sca_esv=ea7b27f3c7f5bbf6&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS945US945&sxsrf=AE3TifPpa8hgcc3QQiuGMPszEMYaQ15S0Q%3A1749580443821&ei=m3pIaJ35MdujkPIP_u-e0Ag&ved=0ahUKEwjdsvCGv-eNAxXbEUQIHf63B4oQ4dUDCBA&oq=rosa+passos+voce+vai+ver+youtube&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiIHJvc2EgcGFzc29zIHZvY2UgdmFpIHZlciB5b3V0dWJlMggQIRigARjDBEiamQFQ9wtYon9wAngAkAEAmAF_oAHSDKoBBDE5LjK4AQzIAQD4AQGYAhagAqgNwgILEAAYgAQYsAMYogTCAggQABiwAxjvBcICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIFEAAY7wXCAgQQABgewgIFECEYqwLCAgoQIRigARjDBBgKmAMAiAYBkAYEkgcEMTkuM6AHvTayBwQxNy4zuAeUDcIHCDAuNC4xNS4zyAdy&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:dfe93595,vid:JzF61sNgOTA,st:0

@tyray, a third album that I think of as kind of a set with "First Light" and "Red Clay" is Milt Jackson's "Sunflower" with Hubbard playing trumpet, also Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, and Billy Cobham.

@tyray, Freddie Hubbard First Light, I own the 1971 album in perfect shape. One of my favorites. Although, I like Red Clay a bit more, probably because it's more earthy. No beautiful melodies like First Light.

I have never been to Brazil, although I have been to Portugal and love the Portugese tongue. As I have mentioned, I have many albums from Brazil. If I hear something I like, I'll hunt it down. I don't know why you didn't respond to my post about Tania Maria. The woman's a master jazz pianist and she's got a hell of a voice. Here's a taste of her just playing piano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owo8t6jmabI

And here's a taste of her piano and fabulous voice. The only reason I know about her is that I went to a small jazz club in L.A. where I was the only white face in the audience and she absolutely bowled me over. Forty-three years ago, I hate to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52iRJke0auA

And here is a joyous album with Maria Bethania (a Bahia singer with real soul), Vinicius DeMoraes, and Toquinho. I particularly enjoyed the fifth cut "Samba Da Bencao" which was the "Samba Saravah" in "A Man and a Woman," written by Baden Powell and Vinicius DeMoraes 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4s0DNe1E8U

@alexatpos, a bit of a sidestep into the "classical" world, but staying in Brazil. Hector VillaLobos was a Brazillian street musician as well as Brazil's most famous classical composer. His Preludes for guitar have all of the duende of the streets and Laurindo Almeida plays them absolutely beautifully with more depth of feeling than I've heard from any other guitarist. 

@tyray, I think you are much more of a musical scholar than I am. I am more of a joyous listener, unapologetically listening to whatever pleases me. Van Morrison is often on my turntable. I went to a Robyn concert by accident and now I’m a fan of the Swedish lady. My musical listening generally changes from rock (jazz-influenced like Van Morrison, Everything But The Girl), jazz, and classical. I found that I liked Brazilian music by accident. So much in my life is by accident. But then I became a real fan. The first Brazilian song I heard that knocked my socks off was a cover of Wando’s "Nega Do Obaluae." If that doesn’t get you up and dancing then nothing will. I lost my copy in a divorce, and I scoured for years to find it again. I had to order it from a Brazilian seller.

I studied classical guitar for several years, and I wanted to play VillaLobos’s Preludes. Technically, I was okay on a few of them, but I am not a musician. I do not feel the spirit and rhythm as a musician, but I do as a listener. If you haven’t listened to VillaLobos’s Preludes, I think you might like them. He also wrote choros, which I think came from being a street musician. He must have been influenced by older Brazilian music since he was born in 1887 and died in 1959. I am working on going through his string quartets which are difficult to sink my teeth into.

Thanks for sending me videos. I’ll have to listen to them later and I’ll comment. 

@curiousjim, @tyray, I haven't been playing CDs since forever until I started contributing to this forum. Much of my jazz is on CD, SACD, and DVD Audio. I have a twenty-year-old McCormack multi-disk player and run it through my Moon 280 D Streamer, which I think is a great product for the money. 

For people who get up in the morning like I do, not quite ready for the world, a great soft, pretty album is Jobim's "Wave." It soothes my brainwaves.

@tyray, I have a Jorge Ben album (Personalidade) from Brazil I haven't played in God knows how long. Maybe twenty years. Maybe more. I'll have to pull it out and listen.

@curiousjim, I have been pulling out a bunch of Brazilian CDs I forgot I had. I'm now listening to Selma Reis and Maris Monte. I listened to Jorge Ben yesterday, but my wife was home and I couldn't blast it, the way I think it needed to be. The recordings were made live in an arena and need to fill the hall.

A question has arisen, though. I don't know if any of these are really jazz. They sound more like Brazilian popular music. I have many Brazilian (French, African, etc.) recordings whose genre I've never tried to distinguish. I love Angelique Kidjo, but I'm not sure I'd call it jazz. It doesn't really matter when I'm listening. I like what I like, but for this forum, it might matter?

@stuartk, I think you need to take a couple things into consideration about what you like now and what you don't. First of all, hearing music live is a very different experience. There have been a number of artists I haven't liked until I hear them live.

Then, our tastes change as we age. I think the reason I continue to listen to Tania Maria and Flora Purim is because they are jazz. A lot of the other music I have from Brazil is popular music. And quite frankly, I grew up with American popular music, have been more exposed to it, so I like it better. Even though I took some exotic tours when I was younger, I have returned to Paul Simon, The Band, etc., when it comes to popular music. 

@stuartk, @tyray, the Flor Purim album I come back to again and again is "Encounter." I don't think it can be appreciated over computer speakers. I need to play it loud. I bought it when I was buying a lot of Flora Purim albums and for years it was the one I couldn't listen to. Just too abstract. Then one day it clicked and now it's my favorite of her albums. I think it is super sophisticated jazz. Probably the second of her albums is "Stories To Tell," and again her voice goes into abstraction. She can do things with her voice that I have never heard any other singer do. She can "hear" things that few singers can hear. You know how we were talking about everybody in a jazz band inferring the beat, yet nobody hitting right on the beat. She does the same with the melody. Once you can hear the inference... very, very cool!

@tyray, I get you on various people's audio gear. I do try to keep down my references to equipment. But some things you just can't get unless you can kick up the volume. I made reference to myself not being able to listen to Jorge Ben properly because my wife was home. I could tell that he wouldn't come across properly unless I played him loud, which I'll do the next time I have the house to myself. Flora Purim's "Encounter" is an album that requires a certain amount of volume. I never play it when my wife is home. Flora needs to take over the room. And I'm not judging anyones rig--I'm just saying she needs room. And I also wanted to let people know that I literally couldn't get what she was doing for many years. I'd try to take a taste and then have to turn her off. Eventually, she educated my ear. My neighbor has a fairly inexpensive stereo but he kicks it up (I know I can hear it next door), and he does fine with the Stones and other rock he listens to. He also loves my stereo and has pronounced that he will gladly inherit it when I die. And maybe he will, because nobody in my family has room for it or even knows how to turn it on.

@stuartk, @tyray, I have loved music all of my life, back into elementary school. I have listened and enjoyed music on early transistor radios with little plastic ear pieces. I have always had a stereo, but for many years they were pretty cheap. I bought music and listened to it, and enjoyed it. That being said, there are a number of musicians who I didn't appreciate until I heard them live. Not just musicians, I did not like Puccini's operas until I heard them live. I needed the music to wash over me. 

Back to hips and brain. A lot of music appeals to my brain. Beethoven's string quartets, Bartok's string quartets, etc. Other music I need to wash over me. I just bought a new release of David Bowie's "Young Americans." I tried listening to it on a low volume because my wife was home. I set it aside until I could kick it up, and I am now listening to it loud. Maybe it's just me, and I've been to too many live concerts, but for me, some music just needs to be loud.

I will repeat, I am not referring to the quality of the audio system. If I had my old, very inexpensive system, I would still need to listen to it loud. So, I'm not talking about high-quality audio here. I'm talking about hips, and @stuartk I think you and I are different in this regard. I like mind music, but I also like hip music. Who knows, maybe that's where the word "hip" comes from?

Examples in jazz. I can listen to "Kind of Blue" at moderate levels and be quite satisfied. "Love Supreme" is a whole different story. Gotta' be loud for me. "Carmina Burana" has also got to be loud for me. I don't play the Stones at low levels. Mick Jagger said it--his music is about sex. Rock N' Roll is about sex. 

I had a friend who was a Beethoven scholar. We were talking about the structure of a symphony's movement. I don't think he liked my analysis, but I thought the movement was shaped like the sexual experience. It began with a theme, playing around with it, breaking it down and rebuilding it, all the while rising to a crescendo, lasting about 15 minutes. After it climaxed (I think an actual musical term) there was a come down period. To me, shaped just like the sexual experience. According to the documentary "Jazz," early jazz was about sex. It was played in houses of prostitution. Anyway, that's what Wynton Marsalis said.

I do both, heady music and hip music. Great thing about Flora Purim's abstract singing is that it's both. That's the amazing power of women and why we love to hear them sing. They can do head and hips at the same time. (Men can, too, of course, but not quite as well in my book.) 

Maybe in the future I should say, "This is hip music. Turn it up." I admit to having made reference to good stereo equipment in the past, and I will be careful not to do so in the future. But saying, "Turn it up" has nothing to do with the quality of a stereo. This is hip music, man, let it wash over you. 

@tyray, I have an album I'd all but forgotten about called "Mosaico" with Jorge Strunz, Ardeshir Farah, and L. Subramaniam" that you reminded me of. I'm about to play it. I can't remember it, but it must have impressed me when I bought it.

@stuark, I don't listen much beyond 80db. Every now and then a song will push me into the mid 80s, but I watch it, too. I kind of blew my right ear sitting next to a speaker at a Delany and Bonnie concert many years ago. I now wear a hearing aid in that ear, which also tames tinitus. So, I listen with one ear analogue and one ear digital. 

Loud means different things to different people. Some people hear loud at 70db. A lot of music I listen to in the 60s or lower so it doesn't bother my wife. If I absolutely have to listen to something loud with her in the house, I resort to headphones. Although, I like the blast from speakers actually hitting my body. It can make a difference, even in some classical, like the 1812 Overture with its canons. 

I cued Joyce Moreno up on my streamer and will listen to Femina at my next listening session.

@stuartk, I found out that Femina is a song on "Natureza," and I'm enjoying it a lot. Here is the song by Wando, "Nega De Obaluae," that got me into Brazilian music. I heard a cover at a bar in Santa Cruz and I had to, had to dance. No keeping me in my seat. This you should play loud if you can.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wando+brasil+youtube+nega&sca_esv=aee332ba488ac271&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS945US945&sxsrf=AE3TifOyjz69xUnb6patGXpouE9qwXaAzg%3A1750207461373&ei=5QtSaPPKFovhkPIPoYLk2Ag&oq=wando+brasil+youtube+neg&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiGHdhbmRvIGJyYXNpbCB5b3V0dWJlIG5lZyoCCAQyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwVI2zxQzAdY6xFwAXgAkAEAmAFhoAHQAqoBATS4AQHIAQD4AQGYAgWgAo8DwgIIEAAYsAMY7wXCAgsQABiABBiwAxiiBMICBRAhGKsCmAMAiAYBkAYFkgcDNC4xoAfcGLIHAzMuMbgHhAPCBwMzLTXIBzI&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:e6ce1c1e,vid:d5ejypw7FMw,st:0

@tyray, interesting about the colloquial usage of the Brazilian N-word. I would never have an occasion to use it except talking about that song. Kind of like you have to be careful about which tense of kissing you use in French. Did you listen tothe N-word song and/or like it?

@tyray, sorry if I had any part in triggering you. It is true that I had no idea what the word meant. I find all words interesting, especially ones that uncover hidden sentiments within a culture. But there are words that trigger me too, and I wouldn't be so objective about those words. I'm a writer and I have a thing for words, but I'm also a person who reacts strongly to certain words. Obviously, I wouldn't have posted the song or even mentioned it if I knew its meaning. Again, sorry if I triggered you. And you did hit the date right on target. I heard that song in 1975. I also heard Flora Purim being covered, and that's what got me into her. I've never really been a Wando fan. Don't know much about him, except what you've just told me.

@stuartk, I must have gotten confused. There is a lot going on with my qobuz screen. I'll check it out again. I liked what I heard.

Here is a juneteenth offering of Pharoah Sanders on sax with Leon Thomas singing. To me, this is spiritual music. Let me explain what "spiritual" means to me. I grew up in a secular house. I have only gotten into the concept of spiritual as I have researched my book on the suppression of women through religion. I have gone back to the beginning of humanity, when I think women were the cave painters and shamans. At that time, I believe art and religion were one thing, a celebration of existence in the universe. Then music was spiritual in that it was a joyous expression of being part of the universe. I think Pharoah Sanders expresses that joy in this set, "The Creator Has a Master Plan." It's a half-hour, so when you listen, I think you need to sit back and offer up your soul to the music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViweO33oo2Y

@tyray, Yes, Lonnie Liston Smith is on the Karma album. I read a bit about Pharoah Sanders, and it said that after Coltrane died he had trouble finding a group of musicians who could play the type of sound he wanted. I guess he would refer to it as spiritual.

@stuartk, I think I share in all those musicians spiritual connection to the music, and I feel it when they play. But I don't share in any scripture or liturgy. If I were to rewrite "The Creator Has a Master Plan," I would substitute "She" for "He" in regards to the Creator. I think music at its essence is spirituality, and I think that's why I talk about being joyous when I listen to certain music. 

There is music that appeals to my intellect, and that's a whole different matter. I enjoy it and often get lost in it, but it does not make me feel joyous. 

@curiousjim I think that Esperanza Spalding is someone to watch on the bass. I saw her in a Herbie Hancock band, and although I was at the Hollywood Bowl and a fair distance from the stage and she was standing at the back of a lot of musicians, she was electric and I couldn't take my eyes off her hands. I felt like they were magical. The little I read about her, it sounds as if she were a savant, like many of the great musicians. Playing piano at three, performing at a very young age. If I could live my life over, I would want to have musical talent. Writing prose is not at all joyous. It's a lot of work. I was also a painter until my back gave out, and painting was totally joyous because I never knew what I was going to do next. I loved getting lost in a painting.