Jazz for aficionados

What's the matter Rok, the cat's got your tongue? Don't come back until you can explain that expression, I never understood it.

Enjoy the music.

In case you don't remember the 80's, I'll give you a few names to get things started. George Adams was a passionate voice in Charles Mingus last band 1973 - 76. He can be heard on "Live At The Village Vanguard", tenor sax and flute.

Some of the names from the 80's are: Steve Coleman, alto sax; Paquito D' Rivera, sax and clarinet; Stanley Jordan, guitar; Bobby McFerrin, vocalist; David Sanborn, alto sax; John Scofield, guitar, and the Yellowjackets, an instrumental group. Here's one that caught my ear by the "Yellowjackets".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiVk-SDy8cA

These are just some names to help you get started, I'm sure you have favorites that you wish to add.

Enjoy the music

Here's a nice album by David Sanborn and Bob James.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAylaBiYsG0

Billy Bang was a "Nam vet" who never freed himself of the demons left by that war.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVJMOpIHBgc

Oregonpapa, I'm quite familiar with all the musicians you mentioned. Harold Land "A lazy Afternoon" is my latest CD by him.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, as far as "Billy Bangs" is concerned, absolutely nothing you and your friends think is relevant; that's because it is "my" reality, subjective reality though it may be, it's still "my" reality, and that's why there can never be an "objective" reality in jazz.

Your analogy of 2=2=5 is null and void; that's because you are using an "objective" analogy in reference to a "subjective" subject, which is jazz.

Enjoy the music.

Acman, Threadgill was original, and very good; he had non of the "stereotypical" trappings of jazz, nor does he like the word "jazz" to describe his music.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, when you are alone in your "audiophile" listening room, playing an LP on your perfectly adjusted TT, with one of the best cartridges, basking in a holographic sound stage that makes your listening room seem like a space much larger than what it is, you are experiencing a "subjective reality".

The average person sitting in your same sweet spot might not experience anything. I never mention anything about my rig to a non audiophile (who's in the listening room on a purely experimental basis) and they just go on babbling while the music is playing, never do I mention anything about the rig.

"Subjective Reality" is what all audiophiles live everyday without even thinking about it.

Enjoy the music.

"Aficionados" and devotees of the 50's and 60's; I just got an album you should have if you don't already have it. Just when I thought I had every thing in those two decades worth having, I discover that I don't, and that's the beauty of it. I don't think of vocals as "must haves" ; consequently I'm probably missing quite a few, but anything, and everything by Clifford Brown, Clark Terry, Harold Land, Richie Powell, Max Roach, and George Morrow when they were at the top of their game, is a must; "Dinah Jams", has all of them and more.

Enjoy the music.

Alex, nothing is more important than communicating the truth as you perceive it, and you do that quite well. Your perceptions are correct. From what I can gather about audiophiles since I've been here, is that they are very much unaware of things outside of that arena.

"Cataclysmic" changes have occurred in the economy of this country since I was on the south side of Chicago in 56. Those changes have affected everything, including music. You are correct in your perceptions about the changes in society that are reflected by music.

Once upon a time there were many places of entertainment that hired musicians, now there are relatively few when compared to times past, this means it's much harder for a musician to make a living; that and other factors account for radical changes in music over time. For whatever reasons, we are both in harmony in regard to the "jazz" of the 50's and 60's.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, our problem in regard to the way we perceive "jazz" is becoming clear; to me, composition is every thing, to you it's how well the musician blows his horn. For example, Michael Brecker blows a beautiful horn, but I didn't care for the composition. In the case of Wayne Shorter, I don't like short clipped phrases (Miles liked short clipped phrases in his last music) While the Wayne Shorter clip was of the "definitive jazz" type, I've gone past that; now I'm more into music without classification, like this Santana for example;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bJouVEzr0k

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, on the issue of "Subjective Reality" I insist that we not agree to disagree, but come to a definitive conclusion.

Subjective reality and how is it different from objective reality? Objective reality refers to the reality outside your mind (in the physical world) – the objects and events that make up the “raw data.” Subjective reality refers to the reality inside your mind. It is the meaning you assign to things and events.

People see different things even if they are looking at the same object.All objects, dreams ideas and “truths” are different for each person. I’ve put “truths” in quotes because as you’ll see, “truth” is subjective! Essentially we all live in different worlds; we may have things in common with other people, but because of our background and our subjective interpretation of the world – our unique perspective – our world can be polar opposite from the person sitting next to us.

The Perception Game

Where you

Imagine yourself and thirty of your friends and neighbors standing in a row, each person an arm’s length from the next and facing in the same direction. In front of everyone is an object, say a huge marble rectangle – a modern sculpture rising thirty feet into the sky. Everybody sees the rectangle. But they see it from a different perspective. One person may see a monolith because they are facing the broad side of the rectangle; to them, the sculpture is imposing and intimidating. The person next to them sees the same monolith but it is exciting because he is a mountain climber. Another, down the line, will see the corner between the broad side and the narrow side; to them, the sculpture may appear very interesting since the quality of light is different on each side of the sculpture. Another person sees only the narrow side of the rectangle and sees something absurdly tall, something that looks like it will topple easily. Tall people see the rectangle from a different angle than short people.

Subjective reality: beauty or danger?Each person is 100% correct in what they perceive. But they don’t necessarily understand the points of view of anyone else in the line of people because NO ONE CAN SEE PRECISELY WHAT OTHERS SEE.

Can you see how mind-blowing this is?

The gray area between objective and subjective realities occurs when you assign a meaning to something that exists in your mind – such labeling your house as “beautiful.” When you start talking to other people about it you bring your subjective reality into the realm of the objective.

If you believe something is beautiful, you will experience it as something beautiful. If someone believes your house is the ugliest thing ever built, their experience when seeing your home will not be pleasant. Each person’s experience depends on the meaning they assign to objective reality.

This is how misunderstandings and differences of opinion occur. You may think “this house is beautiful” while another believes it’s the ugliest. In each person’s reality, the house is perceived differently. Some people will agree with you. In their experience, the house is beautiful. Other people won’t care one way or the other – in their subjective world, your house isn’t important enough to label.

This is what’s meant by “beauty is in the eye of the beholder!” Beauty is a purely subjective concept.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, believe it or not, we have reached an agreement and come to a definitive conclusion in regard to "subjective" and "objective" realities; it's concealed in your last post; rest well.

Enjoy the music.

Schubert, I share your sentiments. When I listened to him on the radio, I felt as though he was a friend sharing his knowledge of the music we love, he had such a comforting voice.

Here's an interesting group that combines jazz and classical music;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxdAHh8ir3g

One of my favorites;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crCxefHCLJA

Enjoy the music.

Rok, while you were defending our integrity, I was reading about "Mary Lou Williams"; she was a very impressive lady. I'll get back to you after I've finished. You can find her picture in Nica's book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X4r5ZioIBw

Enjoy the music.

Hey Rok, how about a little scenery with the music; I feel like going Native, and letting it all hang out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZpXPwmbQvc

Enjoy the music.

Rok, am I glad you're back; not only has Frogman been misinterpreting every thing I say, but he's been rewriting my posts, and coming up with something completely different from what I said originally.

If "present day jazz" is neither definable or clearly identifiable, then it has to be some kind of "mutation". It's often been stated that current musicians should simply drop the "jazz" title and come up with a new name, also they could specify; is it: Soul Jazz, Free Jazz, Acid Jazz, Kenny G. Jazz, Rock Jazz, Blue Grass Jazz, Latin Jazz, Brazilian Jazz, or jazz mixed with classical music, not to be confused with "Classic Jazz", which is Jazz Jazz.

Frogman, while I've enjoyed and appreciated your very informative posts, I think you should start a new thread specifying precisely what it is you're looking for. Not only would I post on it, but I would even research whatever it is you're looking for and trying to get across.

While I have appreciated your expertise as a professional musician, I have absolutely 100% no intentions of becoming one myself, and for Learsfool who seems to chime in on my refusal to learn the technical aspects of music, "I consider this ignorance BLISS", and I hope this closes that door permanently.

When you start your new Thread that spells out precisely what you're looking for, I will be the first to post on it.

Enjoy the music.

Acman, "Old" is better than "New" is a judgmental statement; while I made many statements that "implied" this, I never made that statement.

I compare this to the colors of the rainbow, I like blue, others like red, and there are those who like the remaining colors. Is one color better than another? No, it's simply a matter of preference.

Currently, the record of the month in "Stereophile" is Sasha Matson; "Cooperstown: Jazz Opera In Nine Innings". Maybe you or others could review it, and give your opinion of this most current record.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I have many "Windham Hill" recordings and they are all of excellent audio quality. "Shadofax" is my favorite group on that label. Tuck and Patti were quite popular when they came on the scene. I'll see what I can find by them in my collection. Thanks for a nice contribution, I liked it.

Enjoy the music

Rok, in the process of looking for my favorite recordings on the "Windham Hill" label, I discovered that "Shadowfax" disbanded in 1995. The group formed in 1972 and disbanded after 1995 when Lyricon player and leader Chuck Greenberg died of a heart attack. Having lost their signature sound, Shadowfax's members went on to other projects.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv1YtAjgKzo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQY0rA5W574

I have both of these albums. I must have acquired them about the time I began to diverge from exclusively buying albums that fell under the "jazz" genre. When it comes to current music I disregard genre altogether, meaning I just listen and let it happen. If the music resonates with my inner self, I buy it, if not, I leave it lay. I think that's about as "subjective" as I can get.

Frogman, could you explain how, and in what way: Mapman, Acman and Chazro are at a disadvantage?

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I may never stop laughing over your win of all my "Kenny G." collection.

Although I would very much enjoy a live performance by the "Dregs", new fusion is not something I'm currently adding. I appreciate your unique contributions, they're always interesting, keep em coming.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, although the sound quality was excellent, there are so many better options, that I would pass on Jacky.

Getting back to the real deal, I've been focusing on the instrumentalist backing Dinah; Clark Terry and Clifford got in a trumpet duel of sorts without missing a beat and backing Dinah at the same time. I bought that album primarily to hear stuff like this and I didn't get cheated; every note is a winner.

Enjoy the music.

Although I've had "Down To The Moon" since it came out, seeing it performed took me back in time; I can even remember the shirt I had on when we went to see Andreas.

One pair of binoculars fit in my wife's purse (they do come in handy from time to time) and I carried the big one's around my neck; I was prepared to capture every moment, I saw what you saw. While listening to the music is nice, it doesn't compare to watching the musicians produce the music while you're listening.

During those 39 minutes I was transported back to a virtual reality when I was considerably younger. Frogman, that's another "Reality" you can add to those we've accumulated so far; it's called "Virtual Reality".

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I call this "Bobby Timmons" jazz, it's just that unique; relaxed, soothing, and uncomplicated, but yet it reaches the depths of one's soul.

"Moanin" needs no words, the music communicates that low as you can go feeling, and there is nothing left to do but "Moan".

Keep em coming.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, when you heard Pee Wee Marquette on a record, you knew to get ready for some of the best jazz you had ever heard, and maybe that was the best "Jazz Messenger" group ever.

One can never have too many "Dat Dare's" or "Nica's Dreams"; now we know why one can never have too many "Nica's Dreams".

I'm sure you'll enjoy the music better than ever with your new Polk speakers.

Ramonron, why don't you and Frogman have a conversation to start things off.

Ramonron, long time jazz lover who never posted on this jazz thread, but now you voice a complaint echoing Frogman's complaint. You two guys are a match made in heaven, I'm eagerly awaiting your new thread; but if you didn't post on this one for over two years, I really don't think you have much to offer.

Maybe Frogman wont be so frustrated after you and he specify precisely what this new thread is going to be about; could it be "Watch another thread for over two years, and then complain when they don't write what you want". Frogman and Ramonron, that sounds like a dance team, I'm sure you'll make a good couple.

Enjoy your new thread.

Rok, the only thing dope inspired was "No Shows". Musicians who used dope would have been addicts had they never laid eyes on a musical instrument or sang one single solitary note.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I agree on the singers; while I like the MJQ in general, on occasion they have gotten too moody and introspective, those are the LP's that didn't get turned into CD's.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, are you going to let "Ramondo" AKA "Frogman" affect your play list review?

If it was good enough for your audience during the life of this thread, why should you care what Ramondo, Ramonron, or anyone else thinks? I missed it today.

Enjoy the music.

"Nica's Dream" composed by Horace Silver is my favorite tune, and this "messenger's" version is my favorite; but first, let me tell you a little bit about "Nica".

Kathleen Annie Pannonica de Koenigswarter was a British-born jazz patroness and writer. She was a leading patron of bebop music. In New York, de Koenigswarter became a friend and patron of many prominent jazz musicians, hosting jam sessions in her hotel suite, and lending them her chauffeur and Rolls Royce when they needed a lift to performances. She is sometimes referred to as the "bebop baroness" or "jazz baroness" because of her patronage of Thelonious Monk and Charlie Parker among others. Following Parker's death in her Stanhope rooms in 1955, de Koenigswarter was asked to leave by the hotel management; she re-located to the Bolivar Hotel at 230 Central Park West, a building commemorated in Thelonious Monk's 1956 tune "Ba-lue Bolivar Ba-lues-are".

She was introduced to Thelonious Monk by jazz pianist/composer Mary Lou Williams in Paris while attending the "Salon du Jazz 1954", and championed his work in the USA, writing the liner notes for his 1962 Columbia album Criss-Cross, and even took criminal responsibility when she and Monk were charged with marijuana possession by the police. After Monk ended his public performances in the mid-1970s he retired to de Koenigswarter's house in Weehawken, New Jersey, where he died in 1982.

There are numerous compositions in her honour. Gigi Gryce's "Nica's Tempo", Sonny Clark's "Nica", Horace Silver's "Nica's Dream", Kenny Dorham's "To Nica", Kenny Drew's "Blues for Nica", Freddie Redd's "Nica Steps Out", Barry Harris's "Inca", Tommy Flanagan's "Thelonica" and Thelonious Monk's "Pannonica" were all named after her.

Here is by far my favorite version of "Nicas's Dream", I can feel it in my bones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lju13U1zEE

Enjoy the music.

Acman, on Brad Mehldau; too moody and introspective, nice music but "moody and introspective" is not my cup of tea presently. This is not a case of "New" vs "Old", even if it was by an old artist like Miles for example, I still wouldn't like it. Presently, I don't care for Miles slow ballads.

Enjoy the music.

Here's a vocal version of "Nica's Dream";

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwvuGJPQBNw

Acman, would you call "The Swingle Singers" third stream?

Acman, is this "smooth jazz" or 3rd stream? I have this CD "Rush Hour" and the entire CD contains good music, and makes for smooth relaxed listening. There are so many "sub" genres for jazz; what would you call this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkMU25FEekU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHglheaVv4s

Enjoy the music.

Rok, and Acman; try this one for size, and add the category.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibLAar4BafE

Enjoy the music.

Rok, "Boy, What a Night" is a perfect example of what I'm talking about in regard to thinking that you have all the most important jazz by any given musician. I don't have that, nor do I have "Barry Harris" (he was a good friend of Nica's) that I'm aware of. I bought Lee Morgans greatest hits, which includes "The Sidewinder", but not the rest of the cuts on that album.

My current decision to go back and buy all the LP's was a good one. Fortunately I have Eddie Harris, Les McCann and of course Oscar Brown. Nina Simone's version of "Rags and Old Iron" was the first I heard, they're both very good.

This is working out even better than I thought.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, patience is a virtue, one we will have to exercise in regard to acquiring Mary Lou's music. In the meantime we can discuss the person who created the music. She was a natural born musician who was way ahead of her time, so far ahead that mom couldn't believe it; she dropped Mary Lou who was in her lap watching mom play, and played the same thing note for note after watching mom. (I wrote about another musician who repeated a Juilliard student's lesson) There was never any doubt as to what she was going to be when she grew up.

It's for certain we want all the music I've posted, and will continue to post; hopefully all of the music wont be on different records. In the meantime, clue me in on anything you find interesting about her, or her music.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, Now that you have dealt with a most distasteful situation, that's completely behind us, and we can go on to more productive uses of our time.

Although "all" of the artists on Dinah Jams are major, to me, "Richie Powell", one who many people are unfamiliar with because he was killed in that automobile accident with Clifford Brown, is very important. I like him even better than his famous older brother "Bud Powell"; that's why I cherish every note I can find by him.

Presently I'm still pursuing Mary Lou Williams.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, we're going to have to find some kind of filter for "Mary LOU", because of the recording quality of so much of her music. This is going to require work; for example "Mary Lou's Mass" is a work of art, but the sonics wont cut it for me; but since it is a work of art, it's also recorded as a "Dance Thing", that would work if I could find a DVD where that's choreographed.

Rok, apparently there are two trains of thought on this thread; we have much more important things to to do. I've discovered a "gold mine" and we are going to mine it for what it's worth. Just as trains running in opposite direction pass on parallel tracks, we shall allow that train to proceed on to it's desired destination, without disturbing it.

Rok, this is an even greater Gold Mine than the last one we discovered, and I know we're both still enjoying that one. "Mary Lou's" incredible music is coming up short in the sonics department, but her music is so incredible in regard to "Blues and Soul", that it doesn't have to be her playing her music; it's just that powerful. While I mentioned blues and soul, the gal can bop too.

This is an example of her religious music that's so powerful, I vibrate when I look and listen to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk1Rkf9LVAk

Enjoy the music.

Rok, you didn't buy "Dinah Jams" for Dinah Washington, you bought it for the musicians backing her, so do not miss one single solitary note.

Rok, I have an affinity for Mary Lou's music that goes beyond anything I have ever experienced; it's a kind of nostalgia thing that goes back to a time before I was even born. Have you ever looked at an old black and white photograph that was so old that it was turning brown, and been drawn into it? I'm drawn into the sound of her piano; on "Willow Weep For" for example, this sounds like music I heard at a time before I could even remember.

on "It Ain't Necessarily So", I've heard this a thousand times by a thousand people; why should Mary Lou's sound so different; it takes me back, way back; so far back that I wasn't even born. Could there be something to reincarnation? Maybe I heard her before I was born in a "speakeasy" in Kansas City when I was somebody else?

Music is so mystifying; I mean how the very same music can have so many different, and unusual effects on different people.


[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ug>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e8AOox_prE[/urk]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ug

Enjoy the music.

Rok, here's "It Ain't Necessarily So";

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ug&list=RDz4THBVc47ug

I could listen to her music all night and never get bored; the more I listen the more I want to hear.

Our job is to "separate the wheat from the chaff"; meaning she had to make a living, which means whatever was popular at that time, plus there's the matter of recording quality. I'll have to do a lot of searching before I can make recommendations on which CD's to buy.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I went to Circuit City for computer parts, and a salesman stopped me on the way in selling speakers, cheap speakers. "Can't this guy tell I'm an "Audiophile", we don't buy cheap speakers", that's what I was thinking anyway. "See me on the way out", I told him.

I don't know if I found the computer part or not, but sure enough, when I was on my way out, he stopped me again. "These speakers are really cheap", "How cheap", I inquired. When he told me, I said, "I'll take them."

Those were Polk Speakers, and that was 15 years ago; they were small 2 way bookshelf and sounded a lot better than I expected. Just recently I hooked too powerful an amplifier to them and one of the cross overs blew, speakers still good; I ordered a crossover from "Parts Express".

I use them in the workshop; but just imagine some speakers so cheap, I bought them when I had absolutely no intention of buying any speakers at all, and they lasted 15 years without any problems, and sounded good. Times have changed.

Enjoy the music

Rok, that list you provided will make things a lot easier. From "Black Christ of The Andes"
This is my number one pick of the CD's you gave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNd-X2uMM1k

It's for certain I'll get this as well;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjmAkz-7RBo

We're making a good start. Since you also like music with a high "jump factor", I think there is more of her music available for you.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I'm a lot more of an "Audiophile" than I would like to admit; once I get into the music, that's all I want to hear, not noise and distortion. It's quite possible that we have gone as far as we can go with this music; nevertheless, we covered a lot of territory, but I think it's time to move on. What are your thoughts?

After we receive the CD's we can compare notes in regard to sonics. Hopefully they'll clean up Mary Lou's music like they did those 50's and 60's CD's. Next time I'll give the sonics more consideration before I get into the music. BTW those CD's you have are better than my original LP's, which has absolutely nothing to do with that CD vs LP fuss, but the fact that the music can be cleaned up before it's released.

Enjoy the music.