My best friends brother wanted to become a concert pianist, so his parents bought a baby grand piano. Hobart practiced diligently, and every time he practiced, the next door neighbor would come over and watch him in mesmerized awe. After Hobart finished, the neighbor would sit down and repeat him note for note; that was amazing beyond belief.
Hobart went to Juilliard, got his degree in music and became a teacher. The next door neighbor became a jazz musician and was a star in St. Louis. The cat could jam, and I went to most of his performances over the years he played, until substance abuse cut him down.
I never heard Hobart play, and my friend, his brother said he was into classical and taught music but didn't perform. Over the years Hobart lived an affluent life style; skiing, vacationing in Europe, bought a boat and retired in Florida after he left New York where he taught music.
Although being a "jazz musician" never came up in Hobart's life, the fact that he never performed tells me he couldn't have been a jazz musician even if he wanted to. I said all of this to say that as fans we don't seem to realize how special a good jazz musician is; they're born, not made. No amount of study or practice will enable a person to improvise at the level of a good jazz musician, and no matter how financially successful some other musicians are, a jazz musician knows within himself that he can do something very few people can do, and no way can they learn how to do it. Financial success does not equate to being a good jazz musician and being able to rapidly improvise good sounding music; "either you got it or you don't".
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, although that post was short, it communicated very well; I do remember Chauncy Gardner. However, I believe you are denying us your vast storehouse of knowledge.
Enjoy the music.
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We're going round and round like a dog chasing his tail in regard to new music VS old music, and new musicians VS old musicians. The reasons for this have absolutely nothing to do with the music or musicians; I'll explain.
The primary reasons are economic; back then, there were many more "Juke Joints". While the term "juke joint" is normally used exclusively for "blues joints", I'm using it in reference to all small clubs that hire live entertainment. For example: I saw Phyllis Diller and Richard Pryor at such a small club before they became famous. Not together or on the same night, but at the same club.
Albert King, Ike and Tina Turner, worked the same juke joints in St. Louis. I saw them many times before they became famous; the same for Grant Green. I saw more dynamite jazz groups than I can shake a stick at. My point for bringing this up is that musicians, and all other entertainers have to have a place to work while honing their craft. The number of "juke joints" have shrunk by at least a "gozillian"; now you get my drift.
Since you can't resurrect the dead, when it comes to live music we don't have a choice; but that's no problem for me, because live music is usually better than recorded music, and new musicians have more formal training than yesterday's musicians from what I can gather. (If you kant git what you wont, like what you can git) That's what Rok told me, and I know he knows.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, Frogman is referring to the summer that my friend the professional musician lived in my apartment. He never practiced or expressed the desire to practice, not only that, but an organ would not have fitted in my apartment. (he played organ since childhood in church) Since he was playing three gigs a week of hard driving improvisational jazz, he didn't even know what he was going to play, it's for certain there was no need for him to practice.
I drove him to every gig ( still had the infamous duece), and was mesmerized on each set. The intensity of the music (The dynamic range of live organ can never be recorded)
was in stark contrast to him playing with his eyes closed and a sublime look on his face.
As you stated, the "No practice" was a straw-man, it's for certain no one could get to that level of proficiency without practicing. I understand Frogmans wishes and desires in regard to old and new music, but it is what it is, although when it comes to live music, you have to like what you can get; that's your only option.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, when I heard "South Side Soul", I was immediately transported back to another time and place; 63rd and Cottage Grove in the late 50's. That's when you could see Dinah Washington, or Ahmad Jamal going to or coming from the Pershing Lounge, it was on 64th and Cottage where he made his first famous album, "Ahmad Jamal at the Pershing".
This was the hippest neighborhood on the planet. I lived with my cousin on 65th two blocks east of Cottage Grove, and I liked to stroll Cottage just to see the beautiful people. I remember seeing Dinah Washington's Lincoln Continental with the spare on the trunk parked in front of the Pershing. This car was so exclusive that only celebrities owned one.
John Wrights name was forever changed after he made that album, he's now known as "South Side Soul". The magic of music is too incredible for words; how can music communicate the vibrancy of a neighborhood that was a magical place which is no more, it only lives through his music and our memories.
Did you experience the magic of "South Side Soul" and the streets mentioned, or did you just luck up on the album?
Enjoy the music.
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Schubert, have you thought about starting a new thread?
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Frogman, I must admit, that never practicing on the first post was misleading.
Enjoy the music.
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Has anyone considered how pointless this debate is? To begin with we all hear differently. If you go back to that analogy I made about the radio stations, we can only receive the music our minds are tuned to receive, at the time it's tuned to receive it. I can't hear classical music very well, the tuner in my mind is slightly off frequency.
There isn't much in regard to music that's not "subjective"; consequently there is no "objective" right or wrong. Has anyone heard of the "Tower of Babel"; that's what this debate has gotten to.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, it's time to get back on the tracks in pursuit of "our jazz"; this is between 1950 and 1970. While "Nica" didn't write or talk much, she left us a book of photographs; that's our reference book. She absorbed jazz cerebrally, that's the only way it can be understood. Nica was sometime referred to as "The high priestess of jazz", that works for me.
I'm going to begin in the middle with someone who was never given the credit or money due, "Bobby Timmons". He was born in Philadelphia the son of a minister in 1935. From an early age he studied music with his uncle. He first played at his grandfathers church. After he graduated from high school, he was awarded a scholarship at the Philadelphia Music Academy.
Timmons moved to New York in 1954. He made his recording debut with Kenny Dorham in 1956. He became best known as a member of Blakey's Jazz Messengers. He was recruited by Benny Golson, who said he could play "be bop, funky, and a lot of other styles".
His compositions connected with urbanites instantly; "Moanin", "Dis Here" and "Dat Dere" were on the jukeboxes in all major cities, they even did a line dance called "The Madison" to some of Bobby's tunes. Although his music was put to words, it needed no words, the music spoke for itself to the urban poor.
Bobby Timmons was probably the least appreciated and most under rated musician in all of jazz. Unfortunately he died at 38 from cirrhosis. While I can't do anything about his rating, I intend to appreciate him more by adding undiscovered gems to my collection.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, "pointless" was a bad choice of words; however, since I have no intention of becoming a classical musician, jazz musician, or any other kind of musician, this in depth discussion eludes me, plus we're never going to reach a "consensus"; maybe that was what I was thinking. While it's always good to learn new stuff, nothing has been altered by this cornucopia of musical wisdom. I no more listen for tone and timbre, than I listen for copper or silver wire, nothing matters but the subjective feeling I get when listening to good music on a boss rig.
"Pannonica" is one of my favorite tunes, and I have numerous versions, all of which I like, but whatever is special about me and "Pannonica" eludes me at the moment.
Right now I'm listening to Harold Land, on "A Lazy Afternoon"; it's real laid back, like a lazy afternoon. The music is composed of mostly standards, and Harold communicates the essence of each one of them.
Every time somebody big came to town, all of the local musicians were on the set, and I was always seated at a table with one of them. In addition to what everyone came to hear, star performers always liked to try out new stuff, and the musicians always went wild, while I was sitting there thinking, "that's a little rough around the edges". Evidently my facial expression conveyed this to the musicians, because they always explained this "new stuff" to me, and I would think, "He needs to take that back to the wood shed, it's rough around the edges". I seem to hear differently from most musicians, and I see that hasn't changed. I never hear music in the way you and Leersfool describe it, with me it's all subjective.
Well, what's next, moving along in this enlightening conversation mode.
Enjoy the music.
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Learsfool, Harold Land has one of the most beautiful tones of any sax man; check him out on "A Lazy Afternoon"
I use the word "timbre" when fine tuning the tone. For example; the three way custom speakers of mine utilize a "Heil AMT tweeter", and I had a problem with timbre between the tweeter and Vifa midrange. This lasted for years, until I hit upon Jantzen polypropylene caps.
I use fine stranded copper wire for the Pioneer woofer, copper & silver, midrange, and heavy on the silver for the tweeter. No longer do I spend time thinking about minutiae, just music; although there is the possibility it's in the back of mind, but not in front where it can interfere with the enjoyment of music.
Since we are both audiophiles, I enjoy all your comments; while I don't consciously think of music in the terms you describe, some where in the back of my mind, maybe I do.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, you are definitely back on the track, especially with Kenny Dorham; but you ain't heard the blues until you hear them in a "Juke Joint". Albert King liked juke joints so much, I believe he regretted becoming famous; even after he became famous, he still lived in "Lovejoy, Illinois" which was in close proximity to a lot of juke joints.
Enjoy the music.
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Who is Frogman? There are many Frogmen inside "The" Frogman, all stored in the recesses of his mind. When the music is resonant to some memorable experience, it will excite that memory.
Frogman doesn't make a concentrated effort to hear the music, he lets it come to him. That's when it will excite the emotion associated with the memory of some long forgotten event. That's what listening cerebrally is about.
Right now "Last Tango in Paris" is on my rig, it's the lush one associated with the movie. I see Marlon Brando and his lady without a name doing the Tango in Paris. This music excites all the memories I can associate with that movie. I made no conscious effort what so ever for this to happen, the music excited the memory it was resonant to; that's what listening cerebrally is about, it's letting your psyche do the listening.
I'll respond if this needs clarification.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I can understand a musicians need to make an effort to hear the music, especially if he had to teach as well; I was referring to my listening room, a place designed for relaxation.
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Acman, I've been saying the same thing you just said since day 1.
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Coltrane, "My Favorite Things" is so timeless; it sounds as good today as when I first heard it. McCoy Tyner's solo was even better. They didn't have Eric on that set, he adds an interesting touch.
This is the third and best variation of this tune by Trane that I've heard, it never got too far out.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, thank you for those superb contributions.
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Rok, Blakey didn't always have control over who stayed and who left; musicians like Horace Silver, Lee Morgan, and Bobby Timmons were bound to strike out on their own.
When a jazz artist is recognized and acknowledged by jazz aficionados, that's one thing, but when a jazz artist is recognized and acknowledged by the general public, that's an affirmation of his greatness; such was the case with Horace Silver, Lee Morgan, and Bobby Timmons.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, there's nothing left of my memories but vacant lots, vacant apartment buildings, and empty streets. My memories have a very sad flip side, and I'm not sure I'll be recalling anymore of them.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about an activity, subject, or past time is an "aficionado". A person who puts a quarter in a jukebox, may or may not be an "aficionado".
All those guys were on jukeboxes in San Antonio, Texas in the late 50's and early 60's; that's not the hippest city in the world. I believe Rok, was around that part of Texas at that time. When people come into a club, have a drink and put a quarter in the jukebox, I don't call them aficionados. They were on jukeboxes in all major cities at that time; that's where I'm coming from, I don't mean the public that was looking at "I love Lucy".
I think we're splitting hairs in regard to the public; maybe I ran into a hipper "general public ". Not only that, but all those musicians were on somebody's TV show at that time, this certainly gave them a wider exposure than just aficionados.
Enjoy the music.
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Well aficionados, as much as we liked those decades, it's time to move on to the 70's, and examine that decade in detail. There was a problem that began in the 70's, and continued on until this very day; "Is it is, or is it ain't jazz"? I might like this music, and that music; whether or not they are both jazz, I'll leave to the "jazz identifiers". While "Wikipedia" might consider them both jazz, some aficionados wont. I'm going to begin this discussion with two artists whose music is clearly jazz. "Gato" ushered in the 70's with a new sound that blended South America with modern jazz. Grover Washington Junior came on the scene like a blinding light; while some nit picking aficionados found fault with Grover's music because he was too popular, it suited me just fine. Let us begin with Gato; I have most of his records from 69 on into the present, and "The Third World" was the first album I acquired; it sounds like the title. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp5XcEi8cvcI began with Grover in 1970, and continued buying his albums all the way until his death. Let me began with "Inner City Blues" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLncRYHH4qIEnjoy the music. |
Rok I'm jealous because I never owned a "Nehru Jacket", but that was more into the 60's; I was a turtleneck pendent kind of guy myself. If I could find those bright yellow double knitted bell bottoms with the four inch cuffs, we could do a seance kind of thing over them, I bet they could tell us a lot about the 70's.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, you're doing it again, check PREVIEW before you submit, that way you'll know you got it right.
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Alex, Rok shoots from the hip, but since he had hip surgery, his aim ain't too good. Herbie Mann is one of the all time greats, and I feel quite fortunate to have seen him live.
Enjoy the music.
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No, we haven't even scratched the surface; that's because only the two of us care to. Rok couldn't care less, Alex doesn't know, Acman post's a sentence every now and then; just who are you going to debate? We can go as deep into the 70's as you like. We can disregard the 80's post, and you can lead us as deep as you like through the 70's, I'll follow.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, "What is it you agree about Hancock"? I was into "fusion" at that time, consequently I have no contradictions; Herbie's music at that time was most distinctly "fusion". Are you saying you liked some fusion, but didn't like other "fusion"?
Enjoy the music.
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O-10, no need for con-fusion; while a marriage of any two styles can be called a fusion, its probably wise to keep the term to mean jazz-rock fusion which is as most understand it.
Frogman, I'm now confused more than ever? We can skip what Rok said, nothing I heard fits your definition of fusion.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, I enjoyed all of your posts, even the ones I didn't understand; like Cecil Taylor.
Maybe I'm wrong, but Rok seemed to want to know what artists made the 70's so different, and that would include all artists associated with fusion and there was every kind of Fusion under the sun.
Frogman, since Acman is doing such a good job "instinctively", I suggest he continue on the same way. I'm going to go through that decade the same way I went through it in life at that time; since I was bored with "classic jazz", I welcomed fusion, and I went all over the place, that's the way I'm going to proceed.
Frogman, the direction you're going to take according to your last post sounds good to me.
Enjoy the music.
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Ghosthouse, do you still want to discuss those names you mentioned? |
Alex, I liked your clip of Herbie Mann. I saw him in Chicago in 69, he was dressed immaculately; had on a tan continental suit, light brown highly polished boots, and his performance matched his appearance.
Nina Simone and Miles were on that same billing. Herbie was first, followed by Nina Simone, and Miles was last. Nina was everything and more than you could imagine her to be. Miles was last and late. Every body was talking about Miles new music, when at last "Here they come".
Miles was dressed in a buckskin suede vest with the long fringes hanging down, I don't remember what else he had on; he could have been naked, and I still would not have seen anything but the buckskin vest; "Jokes over, funny Ha Ha, now somebody go and fetch the real Miles".
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I'm glad you wanted to go through this decade in detail; while I wasn't satisfied with the music at that time, since then I've had a change of heart, I'll give you an example; I was so in the habit of buying "Donald Byrd" that I just picked up any new album he had out. After I bought "Places and Spaces", I wanted my money back; not because the music was so bad, but because it was so different from what I expected. Can you imagine turning up a bottle of wine and tasting whisky, or vice versa; WTF would be your reaction in either case. Now I find that same music interesting because I accept it for what it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Vr-E7asw2cDonald Byrd can most certainly go into the category of one of the most creative musicians when you examine his whole body of works. Here's another one he did when he was in that mood; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbToIgl6dnUEnjoy the music. |
Rok, in order to understand that music, you have to first go to the "Misty mid region of wier", then it will all come clear; that's where the picture on the album cover is. Since the jazz as in Nica's book is right down here on the ground, there is no way the two can connect.
You couldn't get into his music because you didn't have an adequate mode of transportation to get to the "Misty mid region of Wier"; if you understand what I just said, you might be able to understand Jean Luc ponty's music.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I liked your post; that was at a different time, and "entertaining" was required; however, it detracted from the seriousness of the music.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, I have this LP titled "Silver and Percussion", I like it, but since we've engaged in this conversation about "Fusion", I don't know whether or not we can call it "Fusion". Since on one side it fuses elements of Native American with jazz, is this fusion; and on the other side it combines elements of African music. Although this was done many times in the past, we never called it "Fusion", and that's why I was reluctant to get into this decade; because of all the con-fusion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGivttfAGlU&list=PL872DDBDD38965152Enjoy the music. |
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Acman, Duke Jordan's flight to Denmark was outstanding. He visited Copenhagen and this was followed by his decision to make the move as an expatriate to Denmark; the guy had to drive a cab for awhile in New York to make a living.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, remember, we can stay in this decade as long as you like, or leave anytime you get ready.
Enjoy the music
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Frogman, all of your recent links have been bad. Name the selections, and I'll look them up.
Enjoy the music
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Chazro, I Went back over the postings to see if you ever posted anything unrelated to your love affair with Rok, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that you made some worth while contributions.
"Birds got to fly, fish got to swim"; by now, everyone should know that Rok's got be Rok's.
I'm not saying that is good or bad; I'm saying this is the "jazz show", and not the "Rok show", but it's being turned into "The Rok Show".
When two guys are rolling in the mud, it's hard to tell the good guy from the bad guy.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, could you re-post 03-10-15 links "No discussion of 70's fusion would be complete without........"
I'll respond after I give them a listen, and since you prefer in depth responses, that's what I'll give them.
Enjoy the music.
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We began to form our musical tastes from the time when we were jumping up and down in our baby crib after hearing our favorite music; some of us even did the "Baby Boogie".
Later on in high school and college our musical tastes became more defined. What years we went are very important. My musical foundation in jazz was laid in the summer of 56 at my cousin's apartment in Chicago.
I'm sure everyone has heard the story about the blind men and the elephant; the one who felt the legs said the elephant was like a pillar, the one who felt the tail said the elephant was like a rope, the one who felt the trunk said the elephant was like a tree trunk. When it comes to music we are similar to those blind men, and we believe our perception of reality is "The Reality", when it's only our perception of reality.
Once you realize all of this, you understand how we all can be so different; the problem lies in not allowing room for the other man's perception.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, While your first post fits the definition of jazz, Michael Brecker does not fit the definition of fusion, even by your own definition which was rock and jazz.
Enjoy the music.
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