@audio-b-dog
I’m sorry but I’m not astute when it comes to driver brand characteristics. I can say the Silverlines are on the warm side of neutral with some cabinet coloration that emphasizes upper bass/lower mids, which is fine with me. Speakers that do not have this emphasis tend to sound lean/cold to my ears. My previous speakers were B&W standmounts (when we had a different furniture arrangement in the room). I was just starting out in audio and quickly realized I’d made a mistake. A forum member (now I wish I could remember who) suggested the Silverlines and for some reason, I opted to follow his suggestion. It proved to be an excellent one, in my case. From what I’ve read, the Supremes are a bit less colored and more resolving but still very musical.
I was responding to the comments by @mahgister regarding Klemmer. Perhaps he will check back in and elucidate.
|
|
@audio-b-dog
frogman, mahgister, stuartk, I want to probe a bit and see if we can define the boundaries of jazz. So, I’m going to start with a performer who might or might not be a "jazz" performer: Frank Sinatra. What do you think?
I don’t feel competent to make any definitive declarations in this regard. For one thing, I haven’t heard much Sinatra. What I have heard has not displayed what I consider to be fundamental to the genre: improvisation on his part. There are of course, plenty of examples of vocalists fronting bands playing "jazzy" arrangements of standards that do not feature improvisation by the singer. To my mind, this does necessarily make it Jazz. Perhaps it’s a matter of degree...
Let’s wait and see what @frogman has to say on this topic.
|
@audio-b-dog
To my mind, unless he was attempting to invent new phrasing every time he sang, he wasn’t improvising. I’m reluctant to include any musician in the category of Jazz who doesn’t improvise, no matter how talented they might be. And just to clarify, I’m not suggesting improv is the sole criterion! Clearly, there are other styles of music in which improvisation is central. That doesn’t make them Jazz, either.
To my ears, Sinatra’s approach still sounds like Pop, no matter how jazzy the arrangement. Pop with jazzy backing sounds like Vegas to me, not Jazz, but no doubt others will disagree.
I’d guess Sinatra fans did not go to his concerts wanting to be surprised by new, risk-taking interpretations -- they wanted and expected him to deliver what they knew from his records.
|
@audio-b-dog
I think the misunderstanding here lies in the term "interpretation". Because it could conceivably apply to such a wide range of scenarios, from very subtle shifts to quite dramatic re-conceptualizations/re-harmonizations, it’s fairly useless. Perhaps the term "invention" might better point to what Jazz improvisers do that goes beyond "interpretation".
If you define Jazz vocal improvisation so narrowly as to only include scatting, then you and I have quite different perspectives.
What a shame that your wife doesn’t share your enjoyment of Jazz. I’m very lucky; my wife and I have very similar aesthetic tastes across the board. Using one’s voice as an instrument is certainly one aspect of Jazz singing. I don’t believe Sinatra could accurately be described in such terms but no doubt, some would disagree.
|
@audio-b-dog
Well, I’ll admit to not enjoying feeling "lost", especially when it comes to language.
I don’t mean to come across as unfriendly but the truth is, more you talk about Jazz, the less clear I am about how you define improvisation.
@mahgister
interesting. I thought that playing squarely on the beat is more typical of western classically trained musicians -- an approach that in certain African - derived genres is considered decidedly "un-hip". The best musicians are able to feel "the center of the beat" so well that they can "lay back" or "push" the beat according to the desired feel of a particular tune. For example, Muddy Waters demanded his band members be able to play what he called "delay time".
According to AI:
In jazz, musicians often play slightly behind the beat, creating a "swing" feel, which is a rhythmic characteristic of the genre. While some instruments, like the bass and ride cymbal, might subtly push the beat slightly ahead, others, like the horns and keys, tend to play behind the beat to enhance the swing. Playing on the beat, ahead of the beat, or behind the beat is a nuanced technique that contributes to the unique groove and character of jazz.
|
@audio-b-dog
I'm sorry if I insulted you. That wasn't my intention. As I don't know you, all I can do is try to understand you via the particular words that appear on the page in front of me. I must make inferences and inevitably, I will make mistakes.
@mahgister
I suspect you are speaking of subtleties that I'm simply unaware of.
Unless have a guitar in my hand and am actively trying to work something out using music theory, I tend to revert to the right brain when relating to music.
|
To my ears, Mal Waldron was, like Andrew Hill, and Horace Tapscott, a player who (in his own compositions at least) tended to take a simple motif and explore it in many subtle variations, as opposed to basing lines off complex harmonic changes. Rhythmic displacement and use of space are evident elements in his playing. All three players shared a similarly dark sound and percussive touch. Waldron recorded recorded albums of standards and albums featuring original tunes and spanned a gamut from inside to outside in the process.
Three I particularly like:
Seagulls of Kristiansund
Left Alone '86
You and the Night and the Music
He and S. Lacy were buddies and recorded several times together, for those who enjoy Lacy.
.
|
@tyray
FYI, my intent wasn't to denigrate Clube da Esquina by pointing out it's not Jazz.
I love that album! I've listened to many other Milton CDs and have yet to encounter one I enjoy nearly as much.
In fact, I've listened my way through numerous lists of recommended Brazilian music and found very little that really captivates me. I wish this was not so.
@foggyus91
I love Afro/Cuban jazz.
Brazilian jazz is a little to syrupy for my tastes.
Can you provide some examples contrasting the two?
|
|
@tyray
Thanks for the suggestions. I’ve been listening to a handful of other Jorge Ben albums already and a bunch of other MPB recordings.
Perhaps hearing Clube Da Esquina first has ruined me for life. Nothing else I’ve heard (including by Milton) appeals to me by comparison.
My hope was that C.D.E. would be a doorway into a whole new world of musical exploration like I experienced decades ago with Jazz but that’s not seeming to pan out. So much of what I’ve heard so far is what I call "terminally mellow", as if all the artists are stoned on a beach somewhere. I find this quite monotonous no matter how beautiful the melodies.
Perhaps there are other genres of Brazilian music I might like that I simply haven't heard.
|
@tyray
Thanks for your understanding and for sharing your knowledge and experience. I suspect I wouldn’t be frustrated if I didn’t believe, given the richness and diversity of Brazilian culture, there surely must be some style of Brazilian music that will appeal to me. Despite the tone of my previous post, I’m not ready to give up. I will check out H. Pascoal.
|
|
|
I’m not a Zappa fan and will confess to finding Pascoal difficult to get into, so far, aside from the early quartet album @tyray recommended. But I haven’t listened to all of his recordings so who knows what I might yet encounter.
@audio-b-dog
I don’t think it can be appreciated over computer speakers.
Do you play an instrument/?
I think it’s safe to say that those of us who do play tend to be more focused upon musical structure and performance factors (players’ technical and expressive abilities). These aspects are what my ears/brain are primarily attuned to and I wouldn’t have it any other way. When it comes to "getting" a piece of music, sonics don’t really enter into it, unless the sound is really abysmal.
|
@tyray
RE: Caldera, I like "Dreamer" best but it’s very rare and hence, very expensive on CD.
I’ve started listening to Joyce. Her voice has a fresh, invigorating quality I enjoy very much. "Feminina" has a nice variety of moods and tempos.
@audio-b-dog
Thanks for further elucidating your point.
I typically listen at an average of 65-75 dB. I may approach 80 dB at times for short interludes but with my system, in my room, that’s plenty loud enough for me. Having abused my hearing with guitar amps for decades, I don’t want to risk doing any more damage at this point. ;o)
|
@tyray
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
It just occurred to me that someone we haven’t discussed is Egberto Gismonti. Are you familiar with his music?
|
Thanks. I didn’t use a translator for that post -- I can still speak simply although I’ve forgotten most of my Spanish. When I need a translator I use BabelFish.
I lived in Mexico 1970 - 1972 as an adolescent. I’d studied it in school before moving there but there’s nothing like immersing yourself in a culture when it comes to learning a language. And subsequently I lived in S. CA and worked in a restaurant with many Mexicanos. Durante esos anos, hablaba tan mucho Espanol como Ingles. Ahora, no hay mucha oportunidad para practicar -- solamente pedir comida en restaurantes o platicar con hombres que trabajan por PG&E cortando arboles cerca de lineas electricos. OK... my brain is getting tired !
Link for Feminina by Joyce:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkmSIdeSGK8&list=PLy1Y3HHeUKJSpsbVNqaLGqnxFVIIs9GDW
The more I listen to this, the more I like it. I'm going to continue exploring her music.
|
@audio-b-dog
Hope you like it!
If not, there are certainly others to sample from her career.
Did you already check out the one @tyray mentioned :"Natureza"?
|
@audio-b-dog
FYI, Naturaleza and Feminina are two different recordings.
I was referring to the album Feminina.
|
@audio-b-dog
Yes; I’m familiar with that recording.
in the late 60’s, 70’s there was an intensified interest in spirituality among musicians, Jazz and otherwise.
R. Thompson, P. Townshend: Sufism.
Beatles: Yoga (TM)
Santana, J. McLaughlin: Yoga
W. Shorter, H. Hancock, S. Cowell and many more: Buddhism
McCoy Tyner and others: Islam
Some, like Coltrane, seemed not to adhere to any single path.
You might say spirituality was "in the air" in that era. It certainly affected me and a number of my friends in high school.
I recall opening the gatefold to Caravanserai and encountering a quote by Paramahansa Yogananda before I’d even become aware of his famous aurobiography. And of course Mahvishnu Orchestra album and tune titles were an expression of the same. Spiritual themes were common in the music of The Incredible String Band, G. Harrison, Cat Stevens, , the Who, Donovan, etc. It wasn’t until a few years later that I got into Jazz and started noticing this same trend. I guess "My Goals Beyond" was probably the first for me, after Mahavishnu.
|
@tyray
Feminia is a strong release, for sure!
|
|
@audio-b-dog
I don’t view spirituality as belonging exclusively to any particular path but I don’t view it as exclusively feminine, either. Just because patriarchy has had a poisonous impact upon religion doesn’t mean there isn’t a healthy masculine aspect to spirituality. Be careful you don’t throw the baby out with the bath water!
@tyray
My wife still does Hatha Yoga every day but it’s a very long time since I did.
|
