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Jazz And Speaker Placement

Inspired by the purchase of a new pair of speaker stands (custom made for my LS50s, whatever good that does), I just went through a painful reevaluatIon of my system’s speaker placement. A lot of reading—particularly into the SBIR phenomenon, along with KEF’s own literature—and even more experimentation. Two guidelines: No rules and no big money on footers.

The last time I tried this, I wound up with the speakers on spikes, 4” from the speaker wall, with socks stuffed into the ports. (Some members of this forum may not have heard: I’ve done away with the terms “front” and “back” walls, along with the confusion and explanations that always accompany then, in favor of the terms speaker wall and listener wall. Please use these terms going forward.)


The first person to hear this setup asked, “Where’s the bass?” He was right. The sound had been tightened within an inch of it’s life. Bass and drums were staccato, with plenty of black space audible. But that’s not the way bass sounds, nor a kick drum. They are soft instruments, with lots of attack and decay. They are not “transients,” at least not in the way that I understand that word. (To me, “transient” has about the same descriptive power as ‘postmodern.”)

This was “audiophile bass,” to borrow Paul McGowan’s phrase, and it had to go. The socks had been long gone by the time the new stands arrived, now, following the advice of McGowan and our own MillerCarbon, I got rid of the spikes and replaced them with a dot of poster putty. Played around with the positioning but kept them in the SBIR-friendly spot close to the wall.


“Miss You” by The Rolling Stones was my reference bass sound during all of this. Great bass line and it now sounds glorious. But I’m still new enough at this game to question my own ears. So allow me to ask the jazz lovers on this forum a question:

Bill Evans’s famous stand at the Village Vanguard has been issued on two albums (probably more). The Paul Motian-heavy “Sunday At” and the more normal sounding “Waltz For Debbie.” In my new setup, I’m “Waltz,” Motian and LeFaro are as loud in the left channel as Evans does in the right. (I may have the channels reversed.) Is this how it’s supposed to sound? In the old days, Evans dominated. Now the famous interplay among this trio is more clear.


It sounds good but it’s definitely a change. Is this how it’s supposed to be?

Worried in Williamsburg.
paul6001

Showing 7 responses by paul6001

paul6001 OP
98 posts
 
Ozzy, somehow you seem to have missed the sarcasm in that statement. Not an easy thing to do given that it was as subtle as a sledgehammer. 
paul6001 OP
98 posts
 
I live in an apartment in NYC. My floor must be soundproofed because I can turn it up loud and the couple downstairs say that they don’t hear anything. But I think a sub would be a bridge too far. 
paul6001 OP
98 posts
 
“Trust your ears.”

”If it sounds good to you that’s all that matters.”

I can hear it being shouted from the rooftops. I knew that was the answer before I made that post and, as I listen to this system sound more and more gorgeous than it ever has, my ability to do so is growing by the hour. But it takes confidence, and with so much information/opinions/bullshit being thrown at me, confidence can be elusive. 

But my confidence grows as I listen to the Evans trio and can hear, plain as day, clearer than I’ve ever heard it before, Bill Evans pushing the music one way, and Motian and LeFaro picking it up and pushing it even farther, then Evans . . .

The second track, one of the “Waltz For Debbie” takes, encapsulates perfectly everything I’m saying. Spikes have been ruined this song for me all these years. And it’s still happening in countless homes! I’ve got to warn them! I’ve got to save them!
paul6001 OP
98 posts
 
Zlone, I spent years fearing boomy bass. I never actually heard any, but Stereophile warned me about it and if Stereophile said it was a problem then it must be. So I pulled the speakers out as far as I could. (Which wasn’t far.) Not much bass. (With no sub, I need all the room gain I can get.) But no one could accuse the bass I had of being boomy. 

Then I read about SBIR, which gave moving them close to the wall some theoretical underpinning. Then I learned that pro studios had their speakers built into the wall. I felt even more comfortable getting backing up the speakers as far as I could. 

I’m still poised like a puma to leap at the first hint of boomyness. But it just ain’t there. As I said earlier, bass is not meant to be a fast starting/stopping sound. Having heard many of them live, both acoustic and electric, I’m quite confident that I’m getting the right sound. No boomyness but no artificial tautness, either. 

Everyone and everything tells me that it should sound boomy. I’ve listened for it and I just don’t hear it. Maybe I just got lucky. Maybe my couch is tuned to the perfect resonance. Whatever it is, I’m safe from boom. And I will live in fear no longer!
paul6001 OP
98 posts
 
Try to do something nice , , ,
paul6001 OP
98 posts
 
Nitewulf, I’m actually in Fort Greene, a few stops down the G train. But I had to stretch for the alliteration. 

The night you describe used to be so normal. Now it just doesn’t happen any more. I saw The Hold Steady at Brooklyn Bowl in Williamsburg not too long before the pandemic got serious. That was also fun but normal. I didn’t know it would be the last live music I would see until . . . forever?

I was walking by Radio City the other day and it was sold out for a Gabriel Inglesias concert. (The third Inglesias to go big?) I’m not sure I would rush into a packed Radio City these days. I’m vaxxed and I would rank myself as low on the COVID fear scale. But I don’t know. It’s a big place, very spacious above, but that’s still a lot of people. 

Zlone, the Jazz Standard closed for good. I liked that place, liked the BBQ upstairs. Gone. 

The Vanguard says it will be reopening September 14. That place has bands like no other. But . .. I used to say that the most expensive activity on earth was going to a baseball game. A typical game: $75 for not very good seats, $12 for a hot dog, $18 for a beer. Of course, it’s a baseball game so you can’t not get them. Several rounds, in fact. It’s a vacation in the Caribbean. 

But the Village Vanguard might top the Mets. How much was Ron Carter? $50? And if you go to the early show the clock is ticking like a guillatine. 10 pm and you’re out. Like ballparks that charge separate admission fees for a double-header. I don’t think the beers are $18 but they’re no bargain.

But what I wouldn’t give to be getting ripped off by the Vanguard right now.
paul6001 OP
98 posts
 
Seems like another century.

Nitewulf, I should make clear that while I once had top-notch hipster credentials, I’m an old man. With kids. As soon as the kids come, your knowledge of NYC cool spots is magically erased. When you’re scanning a menu for chicken fingers, it feels like the battle is lost.

I’m impressed with your knowledge of jazz clubs. This past year has seen me listen to more and more jazz but obviously not seeing ant live.  I’d love to find a place with a good vibe and a good house band. If you know one, the first beer is on me. Except that you can’t exchange personal information here. I’m going 9 to make 1 a lame 7 attempt 4 that will 3 no doubt 4 be caught by 3 the audiogon 8 goons. But if 4 this does 5 get through, I’d love to see some jazz. Delta be damned.

Like you, I’ve stood in line at Smalls. Paid through the nose at the Vanguard. The Jazz Standard, not a bad place, is closed for good. So if you know the right place, I’d be thrilled.

I’ll even do better than a beer. Since you mention Japanese whiskey, do you know Karasu? Kind of a speakeasy-type place in that back of Walter’s on Dekalb Ave. Japanese food, not sushi, some other sort of traditional Japanese restaurant. Its hidden character was pretty much blown when it got revealed in the Times.

Dangerously, it’s directly across the street from my apartment. Walters is doing a roaring outside business (although, as a regular, losing some of its character in the process), but Karasu is still closed. Hopefully, it will open again soon, with the same list of serious Japanese whiskeys, whose prices quickly climb to dizzying heights You show me the jazz, I’ll show you the Yamazaki.

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