James Randi vs. Anjou Pear - once and for all

If you can't hear a difference between various cable designs, you probably shouldn't be in audio, just as people who are color-blind probably shouldn't be artists or traffic light designers. If you can't hear the differences, no problem. I've got a friend who cannot hear even the most obvious differences between cables. He admits this, and consequently, he doesn't drop any cash on audiophile equipment. Good for him! However, he doesn't sit there and argue with us about the non-existence of the effects we others hear clearly and decisively, but that he cannot. He recognizes his limitations and doesn't demand we all agree with his impressions.

Why, then, do so many of those who cannot hear any differences feel the need (the overwhelming and incessant need, apparently) to criticize others who CAN hear these differences? Does that mean those who can hear the differences should all give up what we can appreciate because others can't hear like we can? If you can't hear the difference, don't spend your cash. Like my friend. It's that simple.

But I think what is REALLY going on here is certain folks are insanely jealous of others' ears or wallets, or both, and so try to constantly attack those who can appreciate these subtleties. How juvenile and pathetic!

The only thing more pathetic is when folks like James Randi make absolutely moronic assertions in print, and then find legions of similar 'deep thinkers' who will blindly agree, all because Randi said it (so it MUST be true, right?) But having had first-hand experience with Randi and his Shock-Troopers previously (I was legal counselor to an OEM who suffered from Randi's rantings previously), I can assure you these clowns will never agree to any testing that isn't ridiculously slanted and pre-approved to yield results consistent with Randi's assertions. He'll only agree to use HIS system under HIS control, which said system is not even close to audiophile grade by any measure. (I believe this is what John Atkinson of "Stereophile" also mentioned in dealing with Randi and his minions regarding their 'million dollar challenge'.) I was shocked by all this, frankly. I expected Randi and his supporters to be all about honesty, logic and science. Scientists? Hardly! More like money-grubbing publicity seekers who cannot admit they are wrong.

Sadly, Randi and his crew are acting just like Uri Geller did on Carson when Randi skewered that fraud so beautifully by taking away his 'playing field' (i.e., the pre-stressed spoons and forks Geller used to dupe his willing audiences) and substituting normal, non-stressed utensils that Mr. Geller was unable to 'bend with his awesome mind powers'. That was a GREAT moment for Randi! (BTW: I was a HUGE fan of the 'Amazing Randi' until I got involved in the legal matter noted above and saw another side to his persona.) Why spoil such a wonderful image and legacy by resorting to exactly the same 'playing field' tricks Geller did? Randi is now nothing more than a successful hypocrite, one who simply insures he cannot lose his 'challenge' because he now does what Geller did: he controls the 'playing field' so that reality cannot be used to destroy his own baseless claims.

How sad!

I have never heard the 'Anjou' cables. I don't waste my money on such apparently over-priced designs that almost invariably sound inferior to great DIY designs that use sound electrical theory and application. But that doesn't mean I will criticize the buyers who DO find such products beneficial. I recently heard the Transparent Reference Opus (?) speaker cables that retail for --gasp!-- $35,000.00/pr!! At first I thought the dealer's cleaning person had left out a pair of cannister vacuums behind the speakers, but then was informed what they really were. When the dealer said the price of the Transparent cables I had to do a double-take. Yes, that's an absolutely ridiculous price, especially for a speaker cable that I bet I could beat with a pair of custom-built cables costing less than $50.00! But does that mean I should attack the dealers, the buyers, and Transparent Audio for what I believe to be a tremendous waste of money? (The dealer told me had sold SIX pairs in just a few weeks, BTW!)

This is America, folks. If people want to waste their hard-earned cash on such products, let them. If they think they heard a $34k difference, I'm not going to tell them otherwise. I didn't, but it's not my money or purchase decision. And I'm certainly not going to let petty jealousy color my view of a purchase decision made by someone else. If they've got ludicrous amounts of cash to burn on such things, good for them!

But to argue there is no sonic difference discernible between cables, regardless of price, is just pure non-sense

Every cable has its own unique sonic signature and, as Robert Stein is fond of saying, "... has the possibility of being the perfect cable in YOUR unique and individual set-up." This simple fact refutes Randi, period. We ALL know this is true, that no two different cable designs sound exactly alike (if they do, the system you're listening to is very, very low rez --apparently like Randi's! A Kenner "Close-'N'-Play", perhaps?) If no two different cable designs sound exactly alike, then price and preference cannot ever be criticized intrinsically, as 'there is no disputing taste'. This is simple logic. You may discuss your personal preference, but everybody is entitled to their own impressions and feelings --and purchasing decisions! And if well-heeled folks want to throw gobs of hard-earned (or inhherited) cash after something we might feel is utterly silly or wasteful, let them. That's what freedom is all about, isn't it?

But Randi isn't about logic or freedom, he's all about Randi --and staying 'relevant' and more importantly, 'solvent'. And if that requires him to level spurious accusations against developers of cutting-edge hi-fi products to remain 'relevant', it shows how low these 'celebrities' will stoop to stay in the all important 'public eye'. And that's saddening. Especially from a guy like Randi, that we all should expect a little more from than merely pandering to those unhappy and jealous types who want everyone brought down to their level of mediocrity.

First, thanks, TBG. I have seen your posts and they are thoughtful and introspective. In short, they are HELPFUL, which is the highest compliment that can be paid in this forum.

As for Shadorne, thank you for your post, too. Do you seriously contend that any of my assertions regarding cables and perception are inaccurate? Please provide some evidentiary basis and inferential logic to establish your contentions, whatever they actually are. You acknowledged previously in this thread that differences in cable design will lead to differences in measurable performance, although not audible in most systems. I agree 100% with your assertion there. Thusly you have refuted the 'Amazing Randi'. Your logic destroys Randi's position completely. There ARE differences in cables, just not big enough for most people's systems (or ears) to appreciate. You've nailed it beautifully! If you can't hear those differences, don't buy it. I don't know why you feel we are at odds in any way on this.

As to your second point, I must say, however, that just because someone has big bucks (and a dealer who knows how to spend it!), doesn't mean they have great ears. Money and taste don't always go hand in hand. Most people simply can't process enough information aurally to discern these differences (visually is a different story), and so should not be bullied or shamed into wasting their money on stuff they can't appreciate (except for bragging rights, I guess.) I thought we agreed on this, as well.

Do you seriously contend that just because someone has a megabuck system and a reputation as a stereo big shot, means they have ears we should trust? That's faulty logic. This supposed 'famous' audiophile's ability to hear is not in evidence, and has not been proven. Just because another big buck stereo-addict can't hear shit doesn't mean everyone else who claims different is a fraud. And it certainly doesn't mean the "Emperor has no clothes", as you put it.

I stand by what I said: most of this anti-high end stuff is jealousy, pure and simple. And I further stand by my simple solution: if you don't hear a difference, DON'T BUY IT!

I thought someone like you might agree with that ultimate conclusion, i.e., don't waste your money if you don't hear a difference, Shadorne. I am sorry if you don't.

And BTW: I use DIY cables myself. They sound better most of the time, and you just can't beat the price-performance ratio. I am not a guy who thinks expensive is better. Never have, never will. In fact, I just listened to three different $200k-plus systems in the top audiophile salons in LA. My second-tier redbook CD playback easily bested every system, and by a wide margin, even including a $100k analog rig that has been receiving rave reviews. (Names will NOT be provided! No burning of any bridges here!) Cost of my Sony CDP? Used, only $425 ($825 new, hyper-modified by Ric @ EVS; original retail price on the Sony was a whopping $225.00!). My amps? Hyper-modified ARC Classic 150s. I've got $12k in them, including the $6k purchase price (used, bought around end of 1990) and $6k in mods (by Musical Fidelity-USA, 1991-1992.) Speakers? Cabasse Baltic IIs and Thor IIs, unmodified. My cost? $7k (retail was $14k or so, at the time.) And various ancillary stuff like a few Vibraplanes, a battery power supply for the CDP (from Ric at EVS, again), etc., all worth around $5k. So, I've got around $25k in my system, over a nearly 20 year period. And it's annihilating NEW systems ten times the price? I guess you could say I shun high priced gear and go for quality, quality, quality on the cheap, then modify the snot out of it. THAT'S how to get great sound relatively inexpensively (well, very 'relatively'.) As long as you can hear the difference, that is.

But thanks for the response! It keeps the debate lively. I respect your opinion and I am glad you shared it.

Well, guys, just think of all the money you saved by not being stupid and wasting cash on silly crap like expensive cables. As for me, I don't waste my money on such stuff, either. But I CAN hear the differences these cables make. And it is not always good, IMHO. Most of the time these 'supercables' just create a huge bloomy midrange, plumped up bass and rolled off treble, and pseudo-audiophiles go, "Oooooohhhh!" and "Ahhhhhhhhh!". It happens all too frequently in this hobby. Reviewers are no different, sadly.

The answer is to have a valid reference point in memory from which to compare recorded sound. The more vivid and deeply ingrained this aural knowledge is (which takes time and multiple exposures), the better one will be at discerning the true character and 'accuracy' of any given cable design.

So, do you KNOW what a live instrument sounds like in YOUR listening environment? (I do.) Have you been to any of the halls and venues where the music you listen to was recorded? (I have.) If not, how can you possibly make an informed comparison? If you don't have a valid reference point, your judgments will likely be misguided.

I have friends on the LA Philharmonic, so for years I got to be privileged and experience live music up close and personal from some of the world's greatest classical artists. I sat in the front row of the orchestra section of the Dorothy Chandler Pavillion (seats BB15/16) for over a decade, and likewise sat perfectly positioned for soloists as well (seats BB 20/21). So I believe I have a good background to make such assessments. (Although admittedly I stopped going once Disney Hall came on line; tickets are now just WAY too pricey, sadly, just like audio gear!) I have been privileged to hear Deutsche Grammophon engineers record C.M. Giulini and Kristian Zimmerman performing the Chopin Piano Concerto Nr.1, and I have been less than ten feet from Murray Perahia while he performed the pieces you can hear in his great "Aldeburgh Recital" on Sony Classics.

If your systems are not capable of resolving the entire structure of the piano pedals lightly creaking as Perahia leans into a passage from Beethoven or Liszt, or the sounds of his fingernails ever-so-lightly clicking on the ivories, or the sound of his clothing rustling with each movement, then you don't have anything to worry about, cable-wise. If you can't hear the lucky concert-going attendees softly whispering to each other at Perahia's feet as he performs, or the shifting noises of his bench as he moves around during the performance, then you're not missing a thing by not having those expensive wires and cables that supposedly reveal such things.

But at a concert, if you sit close enough, you WILL hear those very sounds (if your ear's sensitivity allow for it, of course.) And so, if a system can reproduce those subtleties, but only with a megabuck set of ICs, you shouldn't try to dissuade people from bringing such realistic and palpable musical wonders into their own homes. Maybe only a few people can actually appreciate such subtleties, as you contend. But let them see/hear for themselves if the cable's performance matches it's price point. But don't try to brow-beat people into agreeing with your viewpoint. If you feel you've been stupid and bought cables on reputation rather than true objective performance, then sell your expensive cables and go with the cheapos that float your boat. Good for you! But please don't go around saying everybody else is equally stupid for not selling their expensive cables and emulating your own actions. They might just hear a little differently than you do. Not necessarily better, just diffferent.

For those of us who CAN hear those differences, please don't tell us (either directly, or through intimation) that we don't know what we are talking about, or that we are imagining these differences. It is you who appears as ignorant (i.e., unaware) of these low level sonic phenomena, either deliberately (which is simply ridiculous), or as a result of physical limitations of your auditory system's processing capabilities. Do you deny that Shaquille O'Neil can dunk a B-Ball without effort, just because you likely can't even touch the rim jumping as high as you possibly can? Just because you can't do something doesn't mean everyone else can't either. Please don't make blanket assertions about other people's abilities or inabilities to perceive relative cable performance, just because of your own admitted or apparent limitations in those regards. It smacks of a 'sour grapes' attitude that was as unwanted in Aesop's time as it is today. 'Goners deserve better treatment than that.

Shadorne-

Thanks for such a nice post. It is most appreciated, especially your kind words. And please let me apologize for being somewhat forceful in my approach previously. I was a little too harsh here and there, and that is simply unacceptable. Again, I apologize. This apology also certainly extends to Dlanselm for his sharing something not everyone would. Thank you for that!

'Goners are really awesome folks who work together to share and grow this great hobby of ours. We should be supportive of one another, or at least exceptionally gentle in our criticisms. I failed that standard miserably by my postings, which could have been much nicer in tone. Forgive me, all of you. I won't let that happen again.

As for your comments, Shadorne, regarding relatively impecuneous folks who may be taken advantage of by slick marketing and superb salesmanship at the dealer, I share your sadness at someone being taken advantage of. But we are grown ups and should take responsibilty for our actions. Nevertheless, a part of me completely agrees with you about how this can be somewhat tragic when folks are taken advantage of in this way. But as long as they are happy with the outcome and not being legally defrauded, I say let them have their fun, even if the 'Emperor has no clothes'. Lots of people believe stuff with all their hearts that I cannot agree with, and for which there is no scientific evidence. Those shows about 'Ghost Hunters' are particularly annoying.

But we live a wonderful, fully FREE country, the best in the world IMHO(despite some recent slip-ups), and it is this freedom, the freedom to even act silly and foolishly, that makes this country so damned GREAT!

So let's celebrate together in this fabulous forum such as we have here in the 'Gon. Let's support one another, and most respectfully agree to disagree when contentions that are mutually inconsistent pop up here and there. I want EVERYONE to get great sound, and to help us get there, there's more than enough good audio gear and opinions to go around, as far as I'm concerned. And by freely sharing our opinions and experiences we enrich the entire community of audiophiles, and thereby help advance the state of the art, which is in everyone's best interest.

So thanks again, Shadorne and everyone else, for your posts. They are thoughtful and enriching. I appreciate them.

PS-
Same to Tbg, BTW. Always thoughtful and rational, your posts illuminate and educate. In fact, thanks to all you 'Goners, because the community here is GREAT! We all deserve a little pat on the back for helping to make it that way!

HAPPY HOLIDAYS & HAPPY LISTENING!!

Mr Tennis-

Thanks for the kind words.

Regarding the question of how to stick with gear for the long term, my solution has been to buy quality on the used market, or if a new piece, buy new and then wait for warranty to lapse, then modify the product with the newest cutting edge parts available. Reference Audio Mods has great parts, and Electronic Visionary Systems will take the parts and mod the heck out of your stuff relatively inexpensively (as compared to RAM, which charges a lot for the work of installing the parts they sell. Both do fine work; EVS is a little cheaper, that's all.)

But most importantly, don't get hooked by the unending onslaught of great reviews or slick advertising. Arrange for home demos of LOTS of gear and then buy (either new or used) what you really love. Go for it! Then, modify the gear when the time is right for you. You'll really be pleased that you did.

I have had the same amps for 17 years, the same DAC/Transport for over 15 years (before it recently died, sadly), and the same speakers for four years, with no intention of selling or replacing anything. By occasionally modifying the gear, I keep it cutting edge. As long as you have a great tweaker to work on the gear (two noted above), the cost-benefit analysis reveals that tweaking is, dollar-for-dollar, the most effective way to get the most bang for your bucks. Further, it allows you to keep the same gear for years and years, not having to chase that nasty, elusive white rabbit of stereo bliss down the financial rabbit hole of keeping up with SOTA.

HAPPY LISTENING! and HAPPY HOLIDAYS!