Hi Equa: I also play the isolation game and divide it into two categories as follows. The first step is to isolate the platform or shelf (from external vibration) that is beneath the component. I use Vibrapods for this, Redkiwi is currently using E.A.R. feet and there are many other choices though I do not prefer cones for this purpose. The second step is to "draw" vibration away from the component itself. I use Maple shade cones for this right now and in the past experimented with a set of Racing cones. The first step makes a significant improvement, IMO and the second step takes it up another couple of notches (at least) and allows further fine tuning of the sound. My current set up (from top to bottom) is Persimmon (the cabinet itself)/Vibrapods/Maple shelf (not butcherblock)/Mapleshade Surefeet cones (their cheapest)/CAL player. My DAC is Persimmon/Mapleshade cones/Bel Canto DAC (no soft footers on this set up as of yet, but I will try them soon). I also just tried Persimmon/four pieces of mousepad/MDF/stock soft feet on my Audion amp and this sounded much better than the amp resting on the Persimmon alone and I will experiment with footers other than "mouse pad" and would like to try the E.A.R. feet that Redkiwi mentions. I started out by just isolating am MDF platform for the player with Vibrapods (the player rested on the MDF on its stock feet) and went from there to using various other materials, so the initial investment can be as little as $25.00 to get started. I recommend using both systems from step one and step two for the best results on digital front ends. I sometimes find the use of cones to be impractical (on speakers and delicate items such as tube amps) because I live in the sunny land of earthquakes and do not want to come home to find that my speakers or amp have crashed to the floor which rests way below. The cones did sound wonderful placed between the stands and my mini monitors (the same went for when I tried them on the amp) but I am not willing to take that risk as I do not have a closet full of spares at this time. The same goes for children, pets and the uninitiated around cone mounted gear, earthquakes aside. PS: Just read the first few sentences of this post as they contain most of the useable information:-) |
Darn it Jayboard, now I am going to have to pull the Mapleshade cones and check their level. When I tried the Racing cones between my player and an MDF platform resting on Vibrapods I found the sound to be kind of "etched" for lack of a better word. However, since then I have discovered that they make different models and wonder if I may have used the wrong one for my application. I borrowed a set of three for the test but am not certain what number they were and have not yet asked the friend that loaned them to me. I have heard good things about them from others and would like to give them a second try (the other model) before dismissing them. I happen to have some brass finish nuts (the ones used to affix glass ceiling light fixtures) oddly enough. LOL. If you get a chance try the Mapleshade cones under one of your speakers. I just messed around with my wiring and wall outlets and am taking a break from tweaking until the sound settles down. |
Brulee: How thick is your Maple platform and is it butcherblock or of a simpler vertical glue/lam design. I am still using 3/4" Maple (not butcherblock). I do not want to cut up my 5' 2 1/2" thick Maple butcherblock yet as I may want to use it in another cabinet one of these days if and when I can relocate the gear. I picked it up for nothing many years ago but the replacement cost of this "slab" is quite high. I have also cleared another 6" of vertical space (for the time being) in my cabinet (the new tube amp sets on top now) and would like to try the Isoblocks (they are only $24.00 which is the same as Vibrapods). My wife finally noticed the cones, or the use of them as they were in the shadows (when the sliding doors were removed from the cabinet) and asked "why is the CD player floating in air?" |
PS: Everything has also changed with the new 300b amp and I may have to start from scratch again and try everthing that I have already done all over. The first thing that I have noticed is that I can tilt the HF's up much more without is bugging me. I should probably wait until I re-tube before I run the gauntlet again. The only MDF that I am using right now is under the amp itself. |
Brulee: My memory as well as my old emails are wiped out, but I am pretty sure that you are just an hour North of me. If so, let's wait until we can hang or take a road trip together. If my memory is wrong please let me know and I would then like to check out the Maple via mail per your kind offer and will cover the shipping both ways. If I have confused you with someone else (perhaps Gthirteen) then I apoligize to both parties for my lapse. I was pretty fogged out a while back from some medication, to the point of making coffe one morning with dried cat food instead of ground coffee:-) |
RedKiwi: Thanks for the info and the site. I am very enthused about the relocation as I will finally be able to experiment with speaker cable due to the shorter runs, plus I won't have to worry about the pets mixing it up with the gear anymore. |
Jayboard: I checked both sets and they are OK. The only problem is that the sheet metal on the bottom of the CAL player is not completely flat. The cones however when tested on a sheet of glass with a little moisture between are very close. Thanks Brulee, we will wait then for the wild ride. |
Equa: This is the shortest (by far) thread that I have seen on the subject. Search for the "shelf material(s)" thread and their will be more info. |
Hi Red: No I have been unable to print their catalog and order form (I keep getting an error message) and cannot read the download on my screen even using an electronic magnifier. I need to just order by phone and have been too lazy to do so. I can make out $3.25 on the page and assume that these are the ones that you are using. I would need a set of "light weight" ones for the DAC and a couple sets of 20+ pounders so that I can try them out on my player and speakers. I have pretty much decided not to "top weight" my components as I do not like the decrease in harmonics that I seem to get with this approach, though I am curious about the Mapleshade method of applying the weight through tiny contact areas and may try this out with some DIY stuff before I say never to this method. I had thought of using BB's under flat weights for this test. I will pick them up (the EAR's) soon though. Right now I have too many changes taking place (new outlets, new tubes and a PC on the way) to evaluate isolation devices. I was just talking to DanVet and mentioned something (that I have never noted in the forum) that might interest some. When I test isolation components I switch them out while music is playing (just be careful and keep the player level if that is what you are working on - I would not attempt this with a turntable, LOL) and am able to hear the changes that take place right away. I use two narrow pieces of wood (along the sides of the component) to elevate it while I am changing the sandwich underneath. I also use this method when I am clearing/isolating cables and PC's and can hear the music "clear up" as I fuss with the cables. I prefer to do this on my own with the support blocks so that the equipment is not dropped (I then have full control over the situation). This would not of course work in cases such as the Nuance shelving in which it takes many days to settle but seems to work fine and expedite the process with footers, cones and more stable platforms such as Maple. The pods that I use have already been well squished and I would probably want to do the same to the E.A.R. feet before using this method. I can usually evaluate changes (to my satisfaction) within a half hour or so by playing different source material, I don't use special "test" CD's. |
Dan: I have tried what you are describing with Pods (instead of EAR's) and Maple on top of MDF and it worked fine. You have to start somewhere, and work yourself up, which is in your case an MDF shelf. |
Hi Dan: I used soft footers (Vibrapods) between the MDF (shelf) and the Maple platform and then brass cones between the Maple and the CD player. So, from bottom to top it was: MDF/Pods/Maple/cones/player. Red Kiwi has been having good results with the EAR soft footers which I would also like to try out under the Maple. Since that setup I killed my MDF shelf and have the player resting on my cabinet itself which is constructed out of Persimmon wood. Both setups sound pretty much the same to me so I guess that the soft footers are doing their job well. Different soft footers will sound, well, different. The Vibrapods are $24.00 for a set of four and the E.A.R's are $3.25 each from what I can discern from the Parts Connection catalog on line. If you happen to have a Maple cutting board handy (even if it is only 3/4") you can get started for not a lot of money. I am using the least expensive Mapleshade brass cones which are $38.00 for a set of three and their most expensive set of cones is $110.00 per set. I will eventually try the $110.00 set (which another member is having good results with) on my player. I am using the cones on my DAC right now as well. Even if you only start out with soft footers and a platform on which your player rests on it's stock feet you will still here a nice improvement in the sound much like as if you have upgraded your player, which you have just done in a way. The first time I placed my player on a Vibrapod/MDF platform, I was hooked and the subsituted Maple platform sounded even better prior to adding cones to the equation. |
PS: Many people would aslo just place the Pods or the EAR's directly between the shelf and the player for starters if they do not want to use cones. If the stock feet have a higher profile than the soft footers then they will need to be removed, if not, then just leave them on and place the footers next to the stock feet though not touching them. The stock feet of my CAL were higher than the Pods so I just rested the CAL on a sheet of MDF (with the Pods underneath) and left the stock feet on the player. Lot's of ways to do it if you are not going to use cones as well at the start and it's kind of fun to listen as the sandwich grows. |
Dan: You are welcome. Please let everyone know how it works out (whatever extreme you go to). Many still do not beleive in the benefits of isolation components and the word from someone not on the "fringe" (not yet anyway) may carry a lot of weight. |
Dan, I have no experience with Sinks as I am too frugal. I also feel that the use of isolation devices (like many things in this hobby) will vary greatly with each individual's application as there are many variables involved. For example we all have different bases (floors) and the sound of your floor should even vary if you were to move your setup to different locations. We are also (most of us) using different components as well. For example I have two different amps that I have played around with (one tube and one solid state) and they both react differently to the same isoaltion devices as far as how they change the sound and overall balance. I even hear differences in different pieces of Maple as one piece that I use is relatively new and two others are at least 60 years old I would guess (they are folk art cutting boards). There are also different types of maple and different cuts from the tree. The Nuance shelves I find interesting in that they should be uniform, however I would guess that they would affect different components differently. I am not going to get a headache over this (today anyway), but this is just to say that I am leaning to starting from scratch with each individual component using the two basic principals as noted above in my first post, but without any pre conceived (this does that and that does this) and just playing it by ear with each piece. For example I tried setting up my DAC in the same manner as my player and I do not like the sound with all of the layers, so far it sounds better with just three cones elevating it from my cabinet shelf (the shelf itself is dove tailed Persimmon wood and is integral to my approx. 400-500 lb storage and hifi cabinet), which makes it quite a unique shelf. |
Ps: Though on the bright side basic isolation devices such as the pods have always shown an improvement to my CD players performance over the stock feet just resting on a shelf. Any improvement or fine tuning beyond that though seem to be of a highly individual nature. |
RedKiwi: I have yet to try an audiophile rack and until a recent idea that my wife had (placing the electronics in a hall closet that is located just behind the speaker wall) I could think of no way to incorporate one into our living room. I know that your rack is welded steel, but is it custom or is it readily available from a manufacturer? If custom would you be kind enough to mail me the details/specs on it when you have the time? I could take it from there and either have it made or possibly modify an existing design. I would love to try a "base" that adds a sense of consistency to this matter and since the installation would be in a closet, aesthetics is not an issue. Thanks, David. |
Yes Dan: I guess that I was being selfish:-) |
Rick: Is "audiopoints" a specific product? If so where may I find info on them? David. |
Well, I have been looking at various pre made metal shelf units that are available and unfortunately the ones that I like are way over $1000.00. What I am considering trying is Riveteer such as is used in super markets as support for Maple shelves. I have assembled many of these over the years and the only concern that I have is that the metal had a tendency to "ring." The shelf itself would be contained in a closet so I do not know if this characteristic would be a problem. It could also be welded into a one piece unit as an option. Has anyone tried shelving such as this, it's basically just "L" bar with hole slots cut into it not unlike that used in bed frames. Another option would be to just build a lighter version out of "L" bar which could initially be bolted and then later welded into one piece. I cannot weld myself due to sensitivity to light but know a sculpture that would probably do it for me. |
Hi Ken: So is that a yes on the metal "L" bar approach? Riveteer does actually ring just like a "bad" bell (I have done my fair share of Quasimoto impressions while putting it up and taking it down), but this is reduced when it is solidly locked together and would probably be reduced even further if welded into one piece. Tubular steel (when not tuned to do so) has less sustain than "L" bar but I do not feel like working with tubes. I have worked with both in my youth as a metal worker and later as a grocer. From what you and RedKiwi mention about mass though it seems that I would be better of with something smaller scale and lighter than Riveteer, which would be easier for me to work with as I do not intend on using power tools other than a drill. It would have more spring to it, whether this would be good or bad. |
Hey guys/gals: I will be ordering the Neuance shelves next week as soon as I make up a shelf template and get it in the mail. I had the Studio Tech rack that I purchased from Audio Advisor mig welded into a one piece unit by my auto mechanic. It already comes with upturned brass spikes for all of the shelves as well as brass spikes for the floor. I gave up on making my own rack when I saw this one on sale and realized that this (the welds) was all that it needed. I am on a pretty tight budget for the equipment move, but saved enough on the rack to start off with two of the Neuance shelves. My brass cones will be going on either the mini system or the micro wave oven, I haven't decided yet. |
