There will always be a market for hi end cd players. Ripping a CD to a hard drive on a computer is different than playing the same cd on a high end cd player. In effect, you are using the DVD drive on a computer as your transport and not all cd transports are the same.
Hi end cd players, not all, but some like Burmester's cd players, have modified cd drive mechanisms that minimize mechanical vibration and interference to ensure that the laser picks up every bit of information accurately and completely. That would yield more information being fed to DAC. That in turn gives music more nuance, atmosphere, air/space and etc.
For example, I have burmester 061. the same WAV file that I ripped to my computer and using 061's DAC still sounds inferior than the same CD that plays through the 061.
However, you will need a hi end DAC to hear the difference.
Next time... What you can try is.... Using a regular cd player and outputs its signal to burmest's mighty 069, then listen to the same cd on the 069. You will realize hi end cd player will be around.
Unless someone makes an audiophile computer that has a very good cd mechinism... On top of that, figure a way to minimize electrical, signal, and noise interference,signal crosstalk, EMI within all the components in the computer.... Than maybe a computer can sound as good as a hi end cd player. Oh and if the hard drive is very fragmented and the file is all over the hard drive..... Can we say jitter? |
Agree with deframentation, I realized that.
However, I don't know if a computer can really retrieve every bit. If that's the case, I don't know why the same CD on Burmester 069 sounds better than the same files coming from a computer linked to 069's DAC. 069 has a modified CD drive use belt drive technology with error tolerance down to less than 1/3000 of an inch on both the spindle and every mechanism on the drive system. The belt drive keeps CD spinning's vibration to minimum hence, able to retrieve everything. It's not snake oil, there really is a difference!
As to noise, crosstalk, EMI etc... 069 is shielded, every circuitry is specific designed for that purpose..... I sincerely urge you to go listen to 069, wadia 971 CD transport, 931 master clock, and 922 mono DAC combo, dCS SACD/CD player or Esoteric CD/SACD players with the same CD and compare it to a computer as source... |
The problem is not cache vs laser... Is the quality of the reading system between a high end cd player and a run of the mill DVD player on a computer.
I agree, there is a difference between a high end cd player and computer. Assuming the cd player has a digital in, making a comparison is easy. Not all high end players are worth the money. Having said that, the DAC on esoteric, burmester, dCS, wadia and etc are of high enough quality that when linked to a computer, one would still prefer playing the actual cd.
The difference? Accuracy, texture, spatial presentation, imagine, atmosphere, dynamics..... However, it depends on the player u are using. Burmester 069 is by far the best I have heard. Just go test it out.
I can not vouch for every hi end cd player or transport, only those from burmester, esoteric, dCS, and wadia.... A lot of other high end cd player are not up to the same standard. The difference will also depends on the listener. For example, to untrained ears like my parents , they can't even hear the difference between a 3000 dollar speakers and 30000 dollar speakers. Having said that, u can't easily tell the difference without critically listening and comparing hi end cd player and computer source using the same DAC. Some of the differences are very subtle and may even escape you, that doesn't mean it's not there. |
I have linked the computer to DAC by using toslink and coaxial. I have even used my computer as the cd transport to play CDs rather than files linking to a DAC. none of these method sounds as good as burmester 069.
I think most people forgot how important a clean power source is for music. Burmester 069 has 2 boxes and one of the boxes houses 069's power supply. It has all the trickeries to clean, stabilize, de-noise the electricity coming from the wall. (look up burmester 948 and 038) You should be able to find pictures of 069's internal.... It's no wonder that it's one of the best hi end cd player, it's no wonder it sounds better than a computer. |
As our assumption for bit perfect rip. Just google, not all drives are the same.... In addition.... Read the link below...
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=54113&hl=
http://www.digital-inn.de/exact-audio-copy-english/36620-different-drives-different-crcs.html |
Well... I haven't had the chance, time, or fund to get in to vinyl. I am just comparing a hi end CD player with the same music on my Mac Pro. I will probably not get a dedicated music server...... I really just use my Mac for music backup since I still prefer busting out the actual CDs.
The problem is.... a lot of CDs of mine are rare recording and or CDs that are only available in Asia with special recording. I don't know how common they are or whether or not it has been ripped.
That said... I will eventually get XLD on Mac with Accurate-Rip but I am not going to ripping my entire library of 8000 songs all over again.... Which music player is best once the rip is done? Is iTune sufficient? |
Chadeffect, I am not saying I am completely happy with playing 1 CD at a time. I love the convenience of computer source.
If you can recommend me the right right ripping and playing software, I would be happy to do an all computer source!
Seriously.... although I know on the 069 it's completely great and it really does wonders playing CDs.... I am welling to give up a little bit of the sound quality to get the convenience of a computer source. I am relocating and I don't think I want to move all my CDs. I would be completely happy dealing with computer source only when I am moving to places for workl
|
By the way, I use M2tech HiFace on my Mac to output my music to my DAC/CDP. Could that be the problem? Do I need to upgrade it to M2tech HiFace Evo? |
Chadeffect
Can you recommend what modification I need to my computer (Mac Pro, might even get a Mac Mini) besides getting Amarra? |
Thanks all for the input. I will buy Empirical Audio's Offramp when I move and get my speakers. As to what DAC I want to use. I have looked at Weiss int202 but I don't know, since I spend more money on my cd player (Burmester 061), which also has 3 digital inputs. I might keep my CD player and use it as a DAC for my ripped files.... That way... I get to have the cake and eat it too.
However, I am recently contemplating on getting the Burmester 088 or 077 pre-amp with optional DAC module from the excellent reference line 069 cd player by selling my CD player and old burmester integrated amp that I used as a pre-amp.
That being said.... I have audition the Burmester 089 and 069 CD both are an all-in-one player/DAC/digital pre-amp.... The weird thing is.... even though those 2 CD players/DAC/digital pre-amp use the same DAC module, the 069 sounds so much so much better! I guess it's not about the source, eg a perfect rip, but the ride from end to end signal path. Different path equals different results.
I like the convenience of computer source, and I think, once I get a the 088 or 077 pre-amp with optional DAC module, I would be happy. I think at this price level, I can overlook the difference in sound quality, which I agree, is not very noticeable once you reach certain level.
Now... I just really need to figure out whether or not I really want to sell some Apple stocks to upgrade my pre-amp to 088 or 077 and my speakers from B50 to B80.... An all burmester gears do have the synergies!
Now a completely different question, what would affect the sound more? An upgrade in speakers or an upgrade in pre-amp? |
Well... The comparison I have had with my friends were blind A/B test. I don't know what else to explain the difference. If not the better laser pick up mechanism, if not the better circuitry, if not the better power supplies, what else could it be?
Even used a computer to play CDs linked to 069 with blind A/B test at my dealer, still.
If any run in the mill DVD player you can get for 100 dollar can play CDs just as good a high end cd player playing bit for bit.... There will be no market for hi fi system! Than all cd transport including DVD players in computer should be just as good.... Why are people still spending money on R&D on cd transports? I mean a bit is a bit.... All one needs is a DAC. But thats far from the truth. Maybe there are just other factors that high end cd players bring to the table. Iike 069's huge power supply and other things? |
It could very well due to my computer set up. I use a Mac Pro with iTune ripping CD to WAV files.
Why not use CD ROM as a transport? If the CD/DVD ROM can read bit perfect data, why should it matter if I use it as a transport? Since playing CDs on it and ripping CDs from it should yield the same data.
I haven't been able to find a DAC good enough with FW or asynchronous USB than the DAC on my CD player.
As with Hifi hype.... I don't blindly believe anything...... I do blind A/B test. I have to say, some hi end music server are able to deliver the same quality of music when hooked up to the same DAC on... let's say 069... As with "real" tech companies..... I was an investment banker working in Taiwan's technology sector.... I know all the cost, material, and etc going in to a CD/DVD ROM player..... The cost of material with labor is less than $80!!! I am sorry.... it's not just a price bias.... It just doesn't compare to Burmester 069.... Although, I have to say.... some of the "supposed" hi end CD players are pure snake oil!!!!! However, I stand firm on Burmester 069! Blind A/B test with 5 of my friends..... Even if some of them can't describe the difference, all of us prefers CDs on Burmester 069.
You need to forget the Hifi hype. Which part of you really believes that some small hifi manufacturer can compete with giant highly resourced "real" tech companies? You are paying for 20mm think face plates and small production runs.
What are the softwares one can use on a Mac? I use iTune....
I am not suer if the rest is all BS.... like I said.... a non-compromise power supply like the one that comes with Burmester 069 makes a huge difference! The cheaper (US$30000) 089 can't even touch the 069!! |
It seems like getting computer source perfect and beat hi end cd player is problematic and cumbersome, which completely destroyed the convenience of computer source..... Even if you do everything right... it's still not definite... there are so many things besides bit perfect read that affects sound quality....
Sigh... I have ripped 8000 songs with WAV on iTune over the past 5 years...... it's such a daunting task to start over....
I have read on some forums that even with bit perfect set up/software, you still get different results with different CD/DVD ROM drives... how many different bit perfect copies are there?
If it is at all possible getting bit perfect results.... shouldn't the results be the same with different drives....
"Because that's a much bigger if reading real time from an optical drive in general than with files stored on a computer hard drive".
If reading in real time (1X) doesn't result in bit perfect data comparing with files stored on a computer hard drive.... How is it possible to get bit perfect data in the first place? What I mean is..... if reading/ripping in real time doesn't get perfect bit for bit data..... how is it possible when reading/ripping at multiple speed (4x, 8X, 24X) be any better? It's the same data, if a CD/DVD ROM can't even get it right in the first place in real time..... how can one guarantee ripping from it results in perfect bit for bit information?
Still.... I believe the power supply in a computer is not clean enough for hi end use..... and.... there are so many signal cross talk with all the components in the computer.... hell... even hard drive generate internal noise....
I guess it's one of those thing where people have different school of thoughts... and one can believe in anything with theories to back up their thoughts...
At the end of the day...... I urge all of us to just trust our ears..... I have personally done a blind A/B test....Even if I didn't do every technical aspects right .... I have preference in hi end CD players and hi end dedicated music server... |
I have to agree with Larry.... Most of us probably lack the hardware to appreciate the difference. I have been talking about the Burmester 069, it's a US$50000 player and it serious beats all aspect of my current CD player/DAC, Burmester 061. At almost 4 times the price of a 061, does it sound a lot better? Yes. Does it worth it? Depends on people. I can't afford it... yet
Yes, Burmester 069 would be categorized as the mega buck player and I couldn't believe my years. Changing the from 061 to 069 during an audition... the difference was MIND BOGGLING!
CD on 069 > WAV on 069 > CD 0n 061 > WAV on 061.
On some tracks, the difference between CDs and WAV on 061 were minimal and requires your full attention to hear the difference. On some tracks, the differences were pronounced. However, the differences between CDs and WAV on 069 were NIGHT AND DAY! Keep in mind that the 061 and 069 has the SAME DAC!
So... why would the SAME DAC circuit sounds so DIFFERENT between these 2 players? Like I said, a belt-drive CD mechanism with error of tolerance that is less than 1/3000 of an inch, huge power supply that weights 50lbs (25kg), has no sound distorting capacitor and of course other trickeries to eliminate jitter, and it has a better internal crystal clock. All the component that goes into a 069 is probably of higher quality/grade than the ones in 061.
According to Burmester.. "Just like analogue record players, the belt-drive CD player offers enhanced de-coupling of the record medium from the drive unit. The rotation of the CD is held completely even without sound distorting vibrations or staggering. Therefore, the CD is read out with considerable higher precision and is not afflicted with electronic jitter. In addition to that, the 069 is fully balanced and completely DC-coupled without distorting capacitors in the signal path". Is it snake oil? Not according to my ears....
"I’ve heard no CD player I can credibly describe as "better“ than the 069.“(TAS 09/2008)
“The Absolute Sound” selected the 069 as “CD Player of the Year”.
"Outstanding sound performance in every respect.“ (TAS 09/2008) |
Please read this article.... written by a Weiss engineer
http://www.designwsound.com/dwsblog/hifi-computer-faq/cas-5-cd-ripping-for-mac-itunes/
So I guess, the difference is not due to a "perfect" rip.... as the results from all his "ripping" methods are all identical.
The problem is else where.... here are some Q&A
"(2) Okay, if things are such simple and perfect, every digital source should has the same sounding?
Things are more complex than this
(5) How can this timing information create?
Another name of this timing information is called “Clock signal’. In most digital devices, crystals are installed to generate this timing (clock) signal. A better crystal can provide more accurate timing information. However, we must be careful that the accuracy of crystal does not show the whole picture. The problem most of the time lies on other areas such as power supply, temperature, clock signal path etc.
(8) Does transport mechanism vibration, power supply affect the jitter performance? If they do, then computer must not be a good thing for audio playback.
Yes they can affect the jitter performance"...
So.... I guess ripping is not the issue.... It's the quality of every component in the signal path, from power supply, transport mechanism vibration (I guess this is why burmester 060 uses a modified belt drvie CD system), quality of jitter removal, and etc...
So... even with a perfect rip.... I believe a high quality hi end CD player will still sound better.... since computers has too many internal noise and jitter. "there are too many variables to determine how much jitter is created within a computer".... I guess even with a good DAC, it can not completely remove jitter. |
