Ed, in past times you were pretty enthusiastic about the DL-160 on the SL-1200, a little less so about the DL-103. How has that changed for you in the last 2-3 years, and what's your current opinion on the DL-103 or DL-103R on an SL-1200 vs. the DL-160? And did you ever mount a DL-103 variant on an SL12x0 with the KAB fluid damper? I have an SL1210 M5G w/fluid damper, Sumiko shell, and DL-160. I'm wondering what the DL-103 brings to the party.
And +1 on your assessment of the Sumiko headshell. It should be the first thing an SL-12x0 owner buys after the turntable itself. In fact, whenever I think about getting another cartridge, I think of getting another Sumiko to mount it on. I won't be putting it on the Technics or Stanton shells I have hanging around the house. |
04-09-08: Edo_musica
So, the sumiko headshell provides what improvements? I already have the fluid damper and use a AT150MLX cart.
First of all, I'm a BIG fan of the fluid damper. I added it after I had already gotten a DL-160 mounted to a Sumiko HS12 headshell. Improvements from the Sumiko? --Increases effective mass of the tonearm to match the compliance of popular cartridges today --More rigid and less resonant than stock cartridge --Much better headshell leads and clips than stock (worth $20 on their own) --More secure and rigid mechanical interface to the tonearm with second alignment pin --Azimuth adjustment, which enables you to dial more accurate and symmetrical seating of the stylus in the groove, resulting in better balanced stereo image and soundstage The headshell weight could be a help or hindrance depending on the cartridge. The DL-160 is very light, so the Sumiko helps compensate. For a heavier cartridge, a lighter headshell might be warranted, but the Sumiko still brings better wiring, better bayonet mount, more rigidity, and adjustability. |
Back to the original question, I *think* both mods are important, but I don't know exactly because I have the SL1210 M5G which comes from the factory with upgraded wiring. I *have* noticed further (subtle) improvements by separating the interconnect leads and then loosely twisting them together. Based on that, I suspect that an upgrade from garden variety SL1200 tonearm wire to Cardas, Kimber, or whatever Kevin offers would have a welcome effect of more openness, more detail, more dynamics, airier presentation, improved soundstage, etc.
The fluid damper brings a different set of improvements to the party. I can't say which is more important, though I guess if you don't have good signal transfer from the cartridge, the rest of the tweaks won't be as noticeable either. Some critics say the stock SL1200 sounds dark. I would never say that of the SL1210 M5G, but hey, maybe it's the better tonearm wire.
OTOH, I disagree somewhat with Ed in that I found the fluid damper to be a noticeable improvement even with fairly low-priced cartridges, in my case, the Denon DL-160. It's not a dramatic night-and-day difference, and you have to make sure you don't overdamp, but once it's in, you get a greater sense of refinement, sweeter strings, clearer, more articulate percussion, more clarity and inner detail and bass detail. Its improved ability to track warps has made it a boon to this bargain-bin LP shopper.
Ed may well be right that these improvements manifest themselves more dramatically with upscale cartridges. I can't speak to that but I certainly felt that the trough was well worth it for the DL-160.
Given that great matchup, I bet the Sumiko headshell and trough would be killer with a Sumiko BPS EVO III or Blackbird. |
The Mapleshade feet to get (if you get'em) are the Threaded Heavyfeet at $40 each, or $160/set for a Technics.
A-goners who have them like them a lot. I'm not sure if anyone has had the smaller Dayton cones and then upgraded for comparison. I am guessing that the Mapleshades would sound noticeably better than the Daytons. They almost certainly would sound different, as the heavier weight would change the mass loading, vibration paths, and resonant frequencies.
Ditto for the Isonoe footers. Some have Mapleshade cones; others have Isonoe footers at about the same price, but I don't know of anyone who has tried both. |
Radioheadokplayer: Lowering the noise floor is a cumulative process and the fluid damper represents one increment. The biggest is clean records, but the biggest for the Technics is how you platform it. If you don't want a multi-layer approach, at least get the Isonoe feet from KAB. If that's more than you want to spend, then do what I did and replace the feet with Dayton threaded brass cones from PartsExpress situated on a $25 or $50 butcher block cutting board from Ikea or Cuisinart respectively, placed on the proper weight-rated Vibrapods or Mapleshade's cork/rubber Isoblocks. Next, get some Technics bearing oil and put a few drops into the bearing well. You'd be surprised what this does and how commonly it's ignored. Oh, yeah, and the Sumiko or LPGear ZuPreme headshell. It's more rigid and less resonant. Also, some stylus shapes are reputedly quieter than others. The MicroLine stylus in particular (used on several Audio Technica cartridges) is cited by reviewers for this characteristic.
Ps sure wish the technics 1210M5g could use any phono cable you want because the attached one looks cheap! Yeah perhaps can ship to kab but thats a pain! Anyone change out the phono cable?
The M5G cable may look generic but it's not. I believe it's OFC litz wire. At least it's OFC. I've lived with my M5G for over a year and have made lots of mods and upgrades, but haven't felt any urge to upgrade the cable. It's fast, extended at both frequency extremes, clear and transparent, and a good capacitance match. For reference, I'm used to using Kimber Hero, JPS Superconductor, and Audioquest PSC+ (high purity single-crystal copper) as interconnects. To the M5G's credit, I have been able to easily tell differences in cartridges, turntable mats, the fluid damper, and downstream improvements in the phono and line stages. A low-rez interconnect would obscure those changes. The transparency and speed of my 1210 M5G is remarkable. I never would have thought I could get the sound out of it that I do, though it's been a year-long evolution. You can extend the top end a bit by separating the left and right leads, and can lower noise by then twisting them together. |
06-24-08: Radioheadokplayer
johnnyb53,
Is it easy to replace existing tt feet with the dayton brass cones?
Are we talking vibrapods cones or isolators....4 right? As luck would have it, the threads included with the Dayton cones are size M6 (metric), a screw-in replacement for the original feet. You *could* remove the feet and replace them with Vibrapod cones, with the footer threads resting on the balls of the Vibrapods, but I haven't tried that yet, and you would have to have some other means of leveling the turntable. I was talking about regular Vibrapods *under* the cutting board, with the brass cones above, between the turntable and the top of the cutting board. |
06-24-08: Tvad
This is an interesting discussion regarding isolation and coupling with the turntable.
Hard cones are coupling devices. They don't inhibit transmission of vibration. Vibrapods are isolation devices akin to using sorbothane.
So, it's interesting that someone finds a mix of isolation and coupling to work for them.
That's exactly my intention and it's based on the Mapleshade model. I use the brass cones under the turntable to transfer vibration into the butcher block cutting board. To increase this function I would like to replace the Dayton cones with Mapleshade Heavyfeet and get a second cutting board and epoxy them together to increase the mass that absorbes the vibration (but for that money I decided to get a Cambridge 640p phono stage instead for now). I put Vibrapods under the cutting board to isolate the entire structure from the stand and room, and perhaps to help dissipate the vibration that the cones transfer into the cutting board. At least, that's my theory. That's why I see the Isonoes as a sort of standalone solution, to dissipate the SL12x0's plinth vibrations and also isolate the table from in-room vibrations. If you use Mapleshade Heavyfeet instead, it's probably better to platform them onto a Mapleshade block or cutting board, and isolate the whole thing with Isoblocks between the board and the shelf. |
06-25-08: Radioheadokplayer
Ok james i bought the butcher block and vibrapods...
It says you can put them under existing feet....think that is good idea or také off tt feet?
You will get some improvement setting the turntable with OEM feet on the butcher block/Vibrapod assembly. You will get another jump in dynamics and clarity when you replace the OEM feet with *at least* Dayton brass cones from Parts Express ($20/set of 4 + shipping) or other feet such as Mapleshade heavyfeet. Adding the brass cones definitely is a noticeable improvement. My wife noticed both improvements easily. Another alternative might be to replace the feet with Vibrapod *cones* with the turntable's foot thread sockets resting on the balls of the Vibrapod cones, but I haven't tried that setup yet. |
NO, not the ones at $25.19. I meant the ones they market as speaker spike/cones--the first four selections here, where they differ only by color. For example, for black chrome, you'd get this set for $22.88 for a set of four plus shipping. These include m6-size threads which makes these brass cones a low-cost screw-in replacement for the Technics feet. Of course, as Tvad said, you then need something to couple them to such as an isolation platform. |
06-26-08: Tvad
Kevin of KAB sells three isolating devices: Sonic Domes, Sorbothane Boots, and Isonoe Footers. Yeah. I got tired of equivocating over whether to get Mapleshade Heavyfeet or Isonoe footers, so I ended up spending that amount of money on a Cambridge 640p phono stage instead. Turned out to be a good choice. :) |
The big advantage to the thicker, heavier mat is that its extra weight dampens the platter better (and that's one ringy mo-fo). The extra weight also slightly increases the flywheel effect of the platter.
I don't have a supermat, but I *do* has a sorbothane-based Oracle Groove Isolator mat, which weighs about the same. It brought a noticeable improvement in dynamic range and clarity.
As for the headshells, the wire leads on the Technics could bear improving. Most places, the silk-wrapped OFC Litz wire replacements are $20, but they're $15.95 at LPGear.
Kevin has a point, that the Technics headshell is only 7.5g, and you would be hard-pressed to find one as light and rigid on the aftermarket w/o spending a lot more money.
OTOH, the 12g Sumiko (or LPGear ZuPreme) headshell increases the arm's overall effective mass to 16.5g, which provides a better match for many cartridges with a compliance in the range of 10-15. The Sumiko/Zupreme comes standard with those $20 cartridge leads, and provides azimuth adjustment as well.
So if nothing else, the heavier headshell increases the range of cartridges that run well on the Technics. |
06-28-08: Cytocycle
The Technics M5G has pretty good OFC copper wire leads.... so this update doesn't make as big of a difference as all the other Technics tables which don't have the upgraded wiring. You're right--the tonearm wire in the SL1210 M5G is pretty good and I haven't had any urge to change it. The tonearm leads in their headshell is another story, however. I just got a set of the silk-wrapped litz ofc cart leads; I'll install 'em in my Technics headshell and see if I notice a difference. Do you have a link to the lighter AT headshells? The lightest I've seen is their magnesium one at www.audiocubes2.com, and it weighs 11g, which is 3.5g more than the std. Technics. |
07-04-08: Radioheadokplayer
so anyone try what vinylvin did to find a threaded cone to perfectly replace the technics tt feet? I also use Dayton brass speaker cones (from Parts Express) to replace the std. M5G feet. They come with exact screw-in replacement size M6 threads. I definitely noticed an improvement when I replaced the Technics feet with the brass cones. But I haven't put the washers in yet. That'll come next when I remember to pick up a set next time I'm in Home Depot. |
Well, I just installed some washers between the cones and the bottom of my SL1210 M5G. I used what are called "fender washers," which have a big flat area and a relatively small hole. Using an M6 bolt as a guide, I selected fender washers with 1/4" dia. hole (just comfortably big enough to slip over the m6 thread) and 1-1/2" diameter, which is just a little bigger than the top of the Dayton cones.
It did stabilize the table a little more. The feet are less wobbly. But the diameter of these is small enough to fit inside the round edges, and makes contact with the bottom of the SL12x0.
Now, I didn't do exact A-B tests, and for me, putting these washers on and off would be a bit of a struggle, but I put on an LP full of songs I've been familiar with for over 30 years--James Taylor's Greatest Hits on Warner Brothers (Fire & Rain, You've Got a Friend, Sweet Baby James, Mexico, How Sweet It Is...). And I got a sense of going up another notch in clarity, of more space around the notes, of musicians and singers placed in space.
My wife noticed it too when I asked her.
For example, I'd never much noticed the cello accompaniment throughout "Fire and Rain" until I started listening to it on LP again in the past year. But when I listened today, I didn't just hear the cello, I heard more of its characteristics, such as the scraping of the bow across the strings (but still in the context of an overall integrated sound). Before, I'd hear the cello; this time I felt its presence.
You may call me crazy, and it could be my imagination, but at least it only costs $1.15 to find out for yourself. |
07-06-08: Radioheadokplayer
johnny not sure how "less wobbly" isolation cones is better than the technics tt feet alone resting on vibrapods which in turn rest on a butcher block with again the vibrapod also resting underneath the butcher block. Ditching the Technics TT feet for the brass cones was a big improvement. Before that I had Technics feet on the butcher block, or sometimes Technics feet on Vibrapods on the butcher block, but the brass cones straight onto the butcher block was noticeably better and exposed the music's inner detail for the first time. I just added the washers and got another incremental improvement. I may try Vinylvin's method and increase the washer diameter to span the collars on the bottom of the turntable. My next step after this is to replace the Vibrapods under the butcher block with cork/rubber blocks. I found a supplier for cork/rubber blocks in any number of sizes. An 18"x18" sheet is only about $32. I'm thinking of putting an entire layer of cork/rubber under the butcher block instead of 2"x2" blocks. Since I noticed an improvement adding the washers to the brass cones, I suspect the much denser and heavier Mapleshade threaded Brass Heavyfeet would work even better. But they're $160/set, so I'm waiting on that, especially now that I'm upgrading to Mirage OMD-15 speakers and may be getting a high current amp and bi-wire to drive them. In answer to Tvad's question, yes I level the turntable religiously. I started with the rack, which has three uprights and adjustable spikes at the bottom. I used a 12" carpenter's level, checking in 3 directions for each shelf before adding the one on top. Then when I put the turntable on the top shelf, I checked again. The Dayton cones are also adjustable, as the tips are threaded and can be adjusted relative to the body of the cone. I do try to avoid having to do that, and I was able to get the turntable level while keeping the brass cones screwed tightly together. As an alternative, shimming the Vibrapods from below with playing cards or similar shouldn't affect the sound. |
07-07-08: Radioheadokplayer
Anyone compare just using mapleshade heavyfeet tt replace technics versus dayton+ butcher block versus kabusa isonoe feet $175 for four So far some A'goners have gotten Threaded Heavyfeet, and at least one has gotten Isonoe Footers, but I don't think anyone so far has had or tried both. It's something a lot of us are wondering. |
07-07-08: Radioheadokplayer
my concern about the heavyfeet is that it looks rather fragile to rest a tt player upon..... Fragile how? |
07-09-08: Radioheadokplayer
The bottom of the heavyfeet is only a small point so not the last word of stability Yeah, but that's the point of spikes or cones--terminating in a small point. Spikes and cones are everywhere and it's not like components and speakers are tipping over and falling over throughout the audio world. The weight of the component is concentrated on those 4 small points. In the case of an SL12x0 turntable plus the Heavyfeet, you have 30 lbs. concentrated on the area of four points. That means the pressure from above is highly concentrated, and it's why components don't usually wobble when set on cones. |
07-20-08: Tvad
I just received a MintLP Best Tractor and set up my cartridge.
I can say without question that this protractor has resulted in the best sound I have heard from my Technics SL1200 MK2. Tvad, thanks for the intriguing post. I have a couple of questions. 1. The SL12x0 series is often accused of having a narrow stereo image, with a soundstage width limited to the speaker locations. Did re-setting the alignment change the stereo image, and how? 2. Did you already get rid of that AT150MLX? Did improved alignment affect vocal sibilants and surface noise? |
OK. So what improvements did you hear after aligning your cartridge with the MintLP Best Tractor? |
Would you consider the 10x loupe essential? I already have an 8x loupe. Would this give me what I need? |
