Is live reproduction the goal of audio?

Guys

Why do instruments have little knobs and levers? I mean why do we constantly need to tune them. How many reasons and variables are there? How does an engineer "voice" his tool in some other venue?????? and expect it to perform it your venue with you not adjusting it.?? It is fixed in his time and space and energy ! But he went to school and has golden ears and ....You buy into it .

Hello

The electronics engineer is highly regarded here as the expert on the field of hi-fi. I mean in universities they 1st took a hearing test in order to be excepted to the school of higher listening. It's funny that it's the musicians that are making the music. We are so stuck on the equipment that we believe it is the electronic engineer that "gets it". Does Yo-Yo Ma know electronics? Can he atleast build a 2 million dollar Stradivarius ? Do you need to be a 5 star chef to know flavor. I can take 1/2 of audiogon to a LIVE concert and they still won't "get it " How is he supposed to duplicate LIVE in his room when he can't "get it". Do you think an engineer can capture that if he won't go to one concert . Will the hi-fi fan duplicate the "live" feel if he can't "get it". Give him the best equipment available....so what .Do you "get it" ???

It is relative...but electronics has as much to do with it as any thing else. It is a "whole" . If you want to duplicate the sound you must also capture the air as well as the notes. Your whole space ESPECIALLY the room has to have a say in the full ,and as close as possible reproduction of the whole musical experience. So enough with which brands can do what. And enough with the electrical engineer who knows nothing more about hi-fi than a doctor knows about life., Get it.

The goal of the individual is to pay taxes and start wars etc...The goal of hi-fi is to grab your money.

The goal of the engineer is to take his knowlegde and apply it. How many bridge builders graduate and how many actaully build a bridge. Would you let a doctor straight out of school operate on your son ,or would you go with the guy who has actually duplicated the action.

Just because you went out and purchased 1K or 100K worth of equipment , placed it in a very VISUAL pattern, and are now plug and play does not make you an audiophile.

Symmetrical and visual set up systems are great for taking pictures and posting. Rack right in the middle and the speakers all placed nice and all....has nothing to do with sound I'm afraid. You are listening with your eyes and have taught yourself to hear in straight lines.

Thye point is...your cd disc ,or vinyl records have tons of info in them. You are not getting even 25% out of it ,and I don't care what brand or how much you paid for it.

filling the room with sound....now we are talking.

Ok , now if you fill your room with 100% sound . Imagine an empty room. Lots of alive sound ,don't need to raise the volume of your voice to get it to fill the room. Imagine amplified. Now we do need some control , but what is the right amount , and how do we keep it 360 degrees. Everytime we add furniture ,carpet ,people ,etc we are chopping up the #'s.When we place the system into a visual spot we have chopped down the 360 part and now have 2 dimension sound.

We are not talking about components yet. That's the equivalent of a guy with a really deep voice or a guy with a regular voice or a girl with a high voice. The source does NOT matter. How do I let all 3 voices come out right.I need to understand the room.

Hey guys .

I know it's hard to match realities and analogies with each other. If you really want the 100% truth to all this you will be very disappointed .

This is a web site and we are just discussing a subject. It is not the subject , but a wild discussion of it. This a hi-fi web site period . True.

Perceptions are reality. Without sight ,smell,touch ......you would not be able to perceive the physical universe which you are supposed to confront. The problem with humans are they don't intrepret thier perceptions right. A computor is said to be smart. Well if i look at it I'm convinced that if I give it a problem that it will give me the right answer. If I ask a human he will probably error.

A human built the computor. A human has a problem and needs a calculator to solve the humans problem . No it's a tool that adds. The human punches up the keys and waits for an answer ...which then human will evaluate and use it. Put in the wrong info you will get the wrong answer. Nothing wrong with human or machine. Human nature is perfect . The guys with the wrong view point are perpetuating errors. In order to fix the problem we must apply and do. We have instead , thought of a better way. Blame the other guy and that relieves us of the responsibilty of putting in ethics to fix our problems. You see everyone is eager to push his reality on the other but won't fix up his own inorder to present it without confusion.

I feel better already....LOL

To illustrate that you chould use the film analogy again and look at Andy Warhols documentary of, I think it was the Empire State Building. He put a camera on a tripod and filmed the building from the same vantage point for many hours without moving the camera or tripod. That's the entire film. That's the truth. That's Andy's truth. I doubt many of us would be interested to watch it for very long. What's your truth? What's wrong with a "wild discussion"...it actually makes you think a bit...stretch your imagination...step out of the box.

I'm not tooo fast . but will get there.

I'm so far out of the box that you should stay away.

You see you are absolutely right about my truth, Andy's truh and your truth. So much that when someone says that component A kills B then he is imposing their truth on you . You will never get to the bottom of anything that way.

Making this a wild discussion about the subject ....and not the subject. 100%

Making me and you wild and .....LOL

Everyone

Jax2....let me give you some 100%. You really nice guy you. You, I wish I was there to share my passion . Take that buddy and watch your smile ...

Ok ...100% fact that we are just talking about the subject was my point.

Truth does exist 100% . I bet you can find me a 100% lie. It is relative only because out of the 100 people in a room only 1-2 will look through the lies to uncover the truth. The rest believe that what is .."is" They are happy to take someone elses truth and make thier own. It takes somebody really different to search and search to constantly keep uncovering more truth through the maze of lies.
Fear will keep you from moving on.

The reason one cannot handle the truth is a fairly simple one . He is just not aware of it. In order to confront anything you have to know something about it . A very few lead the rest follow. The followers make the most noise I'm afraid...

Nice to read posts like yours

The big issue arises when people who were not in the room try to explain as authorities what took place there because they heard a recording of the event.

Let me give you an example. If real chef looks at a receipe and then watches a tape of beginners he could see the ones that understood the fundemental points of putting a dish together. If you do not preheat the oven ...you will not get the results starting off with a hot oven.

I do not need to be in the room with you. Rambling on about tubes and ss and tt ...is like beef vs veal . Show me how your going to handle and apply the technique. You guys are stuck on canadien vs usa prime vs french. I need to see who will apply the tech of the roasting method.

When I see the set up of some hi-fi then ...how do you know my sound will suck. I apply the tech my friends. Your pictures tell a thousand realities.

Jax2...thank you for being human

It seems we are doing the tango.....you lead.

Look at this point of view. Who is using the perceptions. When you turn on the "sound " or whatever you are perceiving, You are looking from the point of view of you. med-rare is it. Med-well is good but you would pay a 5 star pro to mess up your choice. Yor reality is your 100% truth. All we need to is to agree somewhat on the function rather then the tools. Then we will all be on the same page without the confusion.

Hey you could walk into a guys room listen and figure ...He's stuck in the 70's with treble on max and the bass 3/4 of the way. Full volume on Zep and have a smile ear to ear. You can never match the reality of the tool (components ) only the function. We do don't boil prime steaks.

Or we do not absorb sound.

Ley me try.

Fire was dicovered and it's function is being and will be used. The atom or the molecule of the discovery of the " what is fire" has nothing to do with it.

Function is superiour to structure. All dicoveries that man made ...electricity ,stereo etc... are more the function then structure.Measuring or knowing the exact hz don't mean a thing as long as i can manipulate it. Knowing an absolute measurement is not of any help.

The stuff that brings the music into the home is structure. Totally useless.

Don't confuse the component with med -rare. Component = meat ...med rare is the function. It is grilled that way.

Take a structure, steak, And grill it ...communication and function. You now have a griiled med -rare.

When we try to say everyone has different tastes and there is no right or wrong . I think what your trying to say is he can boil his steak if he want's to . If it is right for him ..it is.
YES. But don't come onto a site that is doing grilling and saying boiled is the same because i have rights.

Hi-fi is a tech ,a methode a right way of obtaining a sound. Buying a $$$$ does not give you that right.

Freedom is one thing ...political correctness is another and hi-fi does have a definition which is very ,very loose .Therefore all this confusion.

Ok

I want you to describe the perfect way to grill a steak. 1) best piece of meat. 2) spices 3) hot BBQ.....4) you get the funtion and I can teach most.

Audiogon and structure

Well in order to grill steak. 10 onces...34939429348283939929292 molecules. gravity stable. Born in russia and fed in US. Grain fed and was allowed to "free range" .....who cares. If you can't cook it to perfection . Burned steak is crap.

Stevecham

Hey dude.

I know i sound like some machine on a machanical or mathematical end.

Eating boiled steak can emotionally connect you to life too. Grilled steak has a purpose. Boiled has one too,only we are audiophiles who practice hi-fi. Just because you produce sound doesn't make you a practitioner.

To just say conveys 100% emotion. If you don't involve 100% of the art "hi-fi" you won't convey the maximum anything.

This is the equivalent of buying a car and joining the mechanics of Ferrari and all race car drivers site....and asking how do they cope with traffic and do they also put candy in thier ashtrays.

I always wonder how I got this brown nose....

Hey now that i got the pebble in between my teeth....do you want it back

I got into it for the music as well . Then ,as any guy here I started to fool around and tweak and tune and there it was....how to fill your room with so much hollographic music and sound that it just blew my mind.

I used to own a 100k plus system but sold it here on the Gon. You know set up wth all the bells and whistles ,a al hi-fi . Now that I fell into another way of presenting a better sonic "whole" . Nothing to do wih plug and play.

I guess if you own a stereo you qualify ,but why dump on bose then?

You see ...that's what the thinking is. If someone in the know puts the so so system in an room that is to die for sonicly then we are not talking the same game. Then then the logic is if we spend 100000 in an environment that can do the same for the cheaper stuff then it's the best.

When any engineer ....from cars to hi-fi wants to go to greatness he must forget the logic and and start removing the "mass" ....light and powerful etc. In hi-fi the more we pay to justify our spending the more thing weighs tons. The only field that goes against science. Look at the old type boat anker amps ....sales are dropping. Look at the new "less mass" generation.

From computer to car to homes and ipods ....better lighter engineering. Hi-fi 1000lbs systems are old school.

I 'm not telling you what you should like guys. I'm telling you should have fun and enjoy your systems . Just don't call it audiophile. It has a definite definition that's all I am saying. You have what is called lifestyle systems. Your living rooms plus a hi-fi set up. Not to be confused with audiophile. It is living room plus cool.

Sorry if you take it wrong.

I hate the ipod too. But it does blow away old generation products ...when comparing apple to apple.

Ok i'll try again steak man.

Do you guys own frying pans. ? Do you own 10$regular or are you the culinary advanced 150$. I know lots of weekend warriors post here. Meaning a great knowledge of food and wine. Well can you fry a great steak in a 10$ pan or is the 100$ dollar pan in the hands of a newbie( burns water) going to give him the edge.

Lets everybody put up the pics of the rooms ...regardless of price of system and we will find newbee city. Everyone talks the talk but the pictures are a horrible presentation of hifi. That's my point .....who cares what you own....your room is a tell tell of how much you are misunderstanding ...yet you offer the advice up.

You cannot teach a guy who knows it all already. You are audiophiles right .You got me too. Man I better go lick my wounds.