Jea48, just curious, did you forget to take your smart pill 💊 today? All (rpt all) stranded and solid core cables should be controlled for directionality, you know, to honor the inherent directionality of wire. What is it about that idea that puzzles you 😳 and gives you so much heartburn? 🔥
Interconnect Directionality
Have I lost my mind? I swear that I am hearing differences in the direction I hook up my interconnect cables between my preamp and power amp. These are custom built solid core silver cables with Eichmann bullet plugs. There is no shield so this is not a case where one end of the cable’s shield is grounded and the other isn’t.
There are four ways ways to hook them up:
Right: Forward. Left: Forward.
Right: Backward. Left: Backward
Right: Forward. Left: Backward
Right: Backward. Left: Forward.
There is no difference in construction between forward and backward, but here are my observations:
When they are hooked up forward/backward there appears to be more airy-ness and what appears to be a slight phase difference. When hooked up forward/forward or backward/backward, the image seems more precise like they are more in phase. The difference between forward/forward and backward/backward is that one seems to push the soundstage back a little bit while the other brings it towards you more.
What could possibly cause this? Does it have something to do with the way the wire is constructed and how the grains are made while drawn through a die? Am I imagining this? Have I completely lost my mind?
There are four ways ways to hook them up:
Right: Forward. Left: Forward.
Right: Backward. Left: Backward
Right: Forward. Left: Backward
Right: Backward. Left: Forward.
There is no difference in construction between forward and backward, but here are my observations:
When they are hooked up forward/backward there appears to be more airy-ness and what appears to be a slight phase difference. When hooked up forward/forward or backward/backward, the image seems more precise like they are more in phase. The difference between forward/forward and backward/backward is that one seems to push the soundstage back a little bit while the other brings it towards you more.
What could possibly cause this? Does it have something to do with the way the wire is constructed and how the grains are made while drawn through a die? Am I imagining this? Have I completely lost my mind?
Showing 50 responses by geoffkait
I don’t know. Why don’t you tell me? From somewhere on the Audioquest website, “DIRECTIONALITYAll drawn metal strands or conductors have a non-symmetrical, and therefore directional, grain structure. AudioQuest controls the resulting RF impedance variation so that noise is drained away from where it will cause distortion. The correct direction is determined by listening to every batch of metal conductors used in every AudioQuest audio cable. When applicable, arrows are clearly marked on the connectors to ensure superior sound quality. For most models of AQ cable, the arrows not only indicate the direction that optimizes metal-directionality as part of Noise-Dissipation, but also indicates non-symmetrical attachment of shield and GND in order to optimize full-system performance.” |
Of course you can come up with ridiculous examples that are exceptions to the rule, like Kimber braided stranded cables. If the strands were arranged arbitrarily then some strands would be in the correct direction while some wouldn’t. That would be rather unsatisfactory in terms of outcome sonically. If the strands were all in the same direction Kimber cables would be directional. In the case of Audioquest stranded cables and power cords all the strands are controlled for directionality, “honoring the inherent directionality of the wire.” One needs to be conscious of wire directionality before undertaking the assembly of cables. The test of a good cable is that it IS directional. |
Just two comments. Directionality in wire is independent of shielding. Directionality is audible and repeatable and transferable for any unshielded interconnect, speaker cable, power cord. If the cable or cord is shielded that overlays another direction related constraint which may or may not conform to the directionality of the wire. There is a 50% chance it won’t unless that particular cable has been controlled for directionality, I.e., respect has been given the inherent directionality of the wire. It just takes a little bit of planning. |
Uh, jea48, you haven’t been paying close attention. The HiFi Tuning website experience and common sense tells us that directionality of wire applies to AC circuits as well as DC circuits. In fact, I cannot off the top of my head think of a case where a wire or fuse is not (rpt not) in an AC circuit. You must Shirley be putting me on. We know that the magnetic fields and the electric fields associated with the electromagnetic waves traveling down the wire are orthogonal to the direction of the electromagnetic wave. This is nothing new or anything to be alarmed or concerned about. Its just Poynting and Heaviside stuff. It’s a red herring. In an AC circuit the signal obviously travels back and forth in the wire. Not sure what your argument is or why you’re arguing. |
jea48 And your point is??? >>>>What do you mean, what is my point? I’m not 100% sure you’re following this discussion accurately. jea48 Question Is it the current that causes the wire in the fuse to melt or is it the energy from the EM wave? >>>>>Fair enough. Here’s a question for you - why do you think fuses are rated for different amperes? 2A, 3A, 5A, etc.? Another question for you - between the current and the electromagnetic wave what is the difference? |
OK, I didn’t want to do it but you forced my hand. Here’s the data sheets from HiFi Tuning website showing small but consistent resistance differences for various fuses, including stock fuses and their own fuses and other high end fuses. This is is really for the benefit of the newbies as this data has been discussed ad nauseam over the years. As The Moody Blues said, you decide which is right and which is an illusion. http://www.hifi-tuning.com/pdf/wlfr.eng.pdf |
Oh, I dunno, I read the first page of comments on the PS Audio thread on Iconoclast cables and am a little non-plussed. For any cable brand throughout history you can always find somebody somewhere who goes ape. 🦍 It’s the same with almost all audio component or device. I did not run across any discussion of directionality on the first page of comments. Was there any later in the discussion? Pop quiz - if there are no audio frequencies running through cables why is “skin effect” an issue? Free tweak for the first correct answer. |
What I’m trying to suggest is how do you know which end of the cables is which if the wires inside the cables were not “controlled for directionality” at the factory. If one wire is the reverse of the other “directionality wise” then it would make sense that your best results are when one cable is the reverse of the other. Of course, having all cables (wires) including speaker cables in the “correct direction” would make it easier to discern differences in direction. You can’t judge a book by looking 👀 at the cover. Plus there’s a direction issue with the shield, if the interconnects are shielded. |
asvjerry I think it’s those damn quantum states jerking our supposed reality around again.... ...and I think I’ll just go back to petting this cat I just let out of a box. It was easy....I don’t believe the box everyone keeps talking about ’thinking outside of’ exists; just another excuse for bad educational experiences.....;) Y’all are Fascinating. Even Spock would be ROTFLHAO. >>>>Hic! |
sleepwalker65 Geoffy, you still have not made a case for why directionality exists, much less of how it’s implied asymmetry of energy delivery could possibly be a benefit to sound quality. >>>>Well, actually I have made a case for it. You are not convinced, that’s all. If in fact you did read any of my posts, which you probably didn’t. I can’t help noticing you didn’t refute or rebut any of my evidence. What would convince you? Some people believe what they choose to believe. You’re not one of those people, are you? 🙄 |
jea48, unless I miss my guess Herman, the person you quoted in your last post, is as confused as a puppy dog meeting his first female puppy about the whole subject of electricity, current and the electromagnetic signal and the fields involved. In fact, there are so many errors in the Herman quotation I hardly know where to begin. But if you insist on a list of errors it would be my pleasure. You realize when you quote people so frequently you do you run the risk of being tagged with the same paint ball, don’t you? |
OK, here we go! The MAGNETIC 🧲 FIELD induced by current traveling through wire is located outside the conductor. Inside the conductor the flux density of the MAGNETIC 🧲 FIELD is zero. The ELECTRIC ⚡️FIELD portion of the ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVE is orthogonal to the MAGNETIC 🧲 FIELD which points outward from the conductor. Thus, ELECTRIC FIELDS are also OUTSIDE the conductor. This has all been described by Heaviside and Maxwell. Nevertheless, the ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVE itself is INSIDE the conductor, as are the CURRENT (charge per unit time) and the COPPER FREE ELECTRONS. Therefore it’s possible that directionality of wire is real, and that there is a physical reason for it. One can easily imagine that the electromagnetic wave (PHOTONS) traveling through the solid copper wire is influenced by the orientation of the copper crystal grain structure, deformed when pulled through the final die. The orientation of the crystals - as I’ve oft opined - can be likened to a porcupine’s quills. The easiest way for photons to propagate is with the grain. The only thing we don’t know at this point is HOW the crystal grain structure affects the electromagnetic wave such that directionality is audible. |
You’re supposed to pick a theory and support it. You can’t have it both ways. I’m willing to listen to any theory regarding the general subject of electricity in wires, how the EM wave can be distorted and wire directionality. I’m willing to listen to either side of the issue you wish to propose. So, I’ll ask again, If the EM wave “energy” is entirely outside of the wire what does that mean for skin effect? Also, is current the same thing as the electromagnetic wave? If not, what is the EM wave? This is the Socratic method. Fire at will. Keep in mind the subject of this thread is interconnect directionality. |
We are beyond that. I just got through pointing out (get it? Pointing?) 😛 the location and direction of Poynting vectors ☝️ in a copper wire are irrelevant to wire directionality arguments. The next thing you know they’ll be saying all wire sounds the same. But here’s a question for the group. If the “energy” of the electromagnetic wave travels primarily outside the conductor, what about skin effect? Is that a dead donkey all of a sudden? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect |
It actually makes no difference to the argument for wire directionality whether the “energy” of the electromagnetic wave EM travels inside the conductor or outside the conductor. The Poynting vectors argument is a red herring. This is because the material of the conductor and the dielectric determine the nature of the electromagnetic wave, including velocity. The conductor is not irrelevant. That is why the velocity of the EM wave in copper wire is different from the velocity of the EM wave in other materials, including free space where it’s equal to c. This relationship between EM wave propagation and the physical material of the conductor also explains why there is an audible difference in wire direction. More to the point, you cannot rule wire directionality because the EM wave travels outside the conductor. Even though the wire may be acting as a “waveguide” the physical composition of the wire affects propagation of the wave, thus the wave itself. Since we know the composition of wire is non-symmetrical, it makes sense that the wave will propagate differently depending on direction of the wire. Quick Summary of the difference between electron drift velocity and the signal (electromagnetic wave) velocity “The word electricity refers generally to the movement of electrons (or other charge carriers) through a conductor in the presence of potential and an electric field. The speed of this flow has multiple meanings. In everyday electrical and electronic devices, the signals or energy travel as electromagnetic waves typically on the order of 50%–99% of the speed of light, while the electrons themselves move (drift) much more slowly. Electromagnetic wavesEditThe speed at which energy or signals travel down a cable is actually the speed of the electromagnetic wave traveling along (guided by) the cable. i.e. a cable is a form of a waveguide. The propagation of the wave is affected by the interaction with the material(s) in and surrounding the cable, caused by the presence of electric charge carriers (interacting with the electric field component) and magnetic dipoles (interacting with the magnetic field component). These interactions are typically described using mean field theory by the permeability and the permittivity of the materials involved. The energy/signal usually flows overwhelmingly outside the electric conductor of a cable; the purpose of the conductor is thus not to conduct energy, but to guide the energy-carrying wave.[1]:360” |
We already know that wire directionality is real and that it’s audible. So, obviously the signal must be traveling inside the copper, not outside the copper. Some portion of the signal may be traveling near the surface. Polishing the surface of the wire as Audioquest does seems like a good idea, maybe he knows something we don’t. Another question is how deep does the physical crystal deformation go when a wire is drawn through the die. |
Relax. There is no paradox. The copper has the necessary free electrons, not the air or the dielectric material. We know photons can travel through solid material. X-Rays, radio waves and Gamma rays are well-known examples. So it’s not as if it’s a mystery. And we don’t need to find a reason why photons can’t travel through copper wire. Follow? |
If the electromagnetic wave (signal) is comprised of photons AND the electromagnetic wave is carried by free electrons in the copper then doesn’t it make sense that the photons must be traveling through the copper? We know certain electrical and magnetic properties like the induced magnetic field are measured external to the copper wire and perhaps other fields, too. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. |
Even if they do both - travel inside and outside the wire - at least some photons will go through the solid copper. But how can even one photon go long distances through solid copper? Furthermore, if the photons travel inside and outside the wire, the photon velocities outside the copper would be much higher than those inside the copper, no? So the EM wave would not be coherent. You don’t even have to get into quantum mechanics. It’s simple logic. Even if you’re joking. |
You totally did not get my comments. I found no problems or errors with the links. That’s why I said quoting ANY scientific explanation is like saying the sky is blue. Just because a statement is true doesn’t necessarily mean it supports a given proposition. The reason I said e=mc2 helps explain my proposition regarding how the audio signal works is because that particular equations includes the term c which is the speed of light. We know for sure that photons are the only particle that can/must travel at the speed of light in a vacuum, so we can probably conclude current in wire or in free space is composed of photons. Now, I’m not saying that proves anything about directionality, but first things first. If you can find a scientific explanation or equation that indicates or provides evidence why directionality cannot be real I’m all ears. Pop Quiz 2 (free tweak for first correct answer) - If it’s true that photons have zero mass why is it light cannot escape a black hole? |
jea48 - You might just as well have said the sky is blue. Those wiki links, as authoritative and scientific as they may be, don’t get us any closer to the answer to the question, why is wire direction audible? Quoting Ohm’s Law or Maxwell’s equations don’t win either side of the argument. Now, if you had stated, e=mc2 then I would more inclined to say that’s relevant. Pop Quiz - what is the mass of a photon that is not at rest? |
jea48 So how does the wire directionality have an effect on the magnetic wave as it travels down the wire from the source to the load at near the speed of light? >>>>One assumes you mean the electromagnetic wave, not the magnetic wave. 😛 also, jea48 wrote, Now the signal energy is traveling down the wire from the source to the load at near the speed of light. >>>>>Well, actually in the AC circuit you’re referring to the signal energy travels both ways, the signal direction is alternating along with the electron drift velocity direction on the + and - wires. Please keep in mind the “signal energy” is not the audio waveform - it’s the current and voltage. When I refer to the “audio signal” in wires it’s the current and voltage. You don’t get an audio waveform until the speakers generate it. |
Yes, I know it’s confusing. To get to the bottom of things we must answer these questions, 1. What is the audio signal? 2. What role do electrons play? 3. What is current? 4. When a cable produces distortion, for example by being in the “wrong direction” or by being affected by external forces, what exactly is being distorted? |
Wrong again, buddy boy. The electrons are only charge carriers. They are not (rpt not) the signal, the charge, I.e., current, itself. The charge itself is actually comprised of photons. That’s why the signal travels at near light-speed. The electrons move back and forth 🔛 at very slow speeds, as I already indicated, about one meter per hour. Thus, in fact, for AC circuits their net velocity is zero. 🤯 |
sleepwalker65 The flow of electrons for an audio signal is in both directions Geoff, from one terminal of the source to the other on the positive half cycle, then in the opposite direction for the negative half cycle. If you could optimize electron flow, favoring the positive half cycle over the negative half cycle, (or vice-versa), you would be distorting the signal. It’s never too late to wake up from the dream of “cable directionality“, and embrace reality. >>>>If you wish to embrace reality you should first consider that electrons don’t flow, unless you consider a velocity of one meter per hour flowing. What is distorting the signal has nothing to do with electrons, which are simply the charge carriers. The electrons certainly aren’t the signal. The current is. You have to look 👀 deeper, grasshopper. |
If the two interconnect cables are symmetrical there is no way find the correct directions for both ICs other than by listening to all 4 combinations. But - as I opined in my previous post - the “good direction” for both cables is toward the amp. 🔜 it’s the same idea with fuses - the correct installation is “good direction” toward the speakers. 🔜 You don’t care when the signal travels away from the speakers. That signal is not audible. |
Exactly! There are two wires involved in AC, + and - for each channel. When the signal goes toward the speaker on one wire, the signal (current and voltage) travels in the opposite direction on the other wire and vise versa. So both + and - wires/cables must be controlled for directionality, such that the “good” direction is toward the speaker for both + and - wires. |