I have spent time listening to guarneris with Pathos Integrated and with CJ tubes. Both sound great. I agree with Pgulrich regarding subs...i have heard the guarneris specifically with Velodyne DD18 and CJ pre and amp (mv60). Sounds magnificent imho. Good luck! |
Hi D-I-L-Eye,
I owned the Guarneris for years and upgraded to STrads a few years ago. I know many owners love Mcintosh with Guarneris. However, i will also say placement of the speakers is very important here. Your Luxman amp is quite good by reputation (i've not heard it)...and while the Guarneris will use greater power well...i would say they react better to higher quality mid-level power than to mid-quality high power.
I also would ask...what do you/your wife think the Guarneris are missing? when dialed in right, they have a unique "magic" that most find very engaging. they will never produce prodigious bass. if you can explain in more detail, happy to share my 2 cents. they are a truly great speaker amongst a pantheon of great speakers. |
D-I-L-Eye,
that is helpful. First, a caveat: i have not heard the Yamaha speaker. Now on to comments:
1. The Gs are very smooth...mellifluous. That is the SF sound...particularly in the Homage Range...Guarneri, Amati, Stradivari.
2. They are going to set the soundstage back a bit...like sitting mid-row instead of front row.
3. They are not going to give a boost in the upper bass that will give you a fullness of sound that a much larger, well designed floorstander will give you.
4. With all of that said, here is what i would say about your comments and my own personal experience with the Gs.
a. Side by side comparison with Quad 2905 (along with 3 audio pros with 20+ yrs experience each) showed that the G has every bit of detail, nuance and melodic capability of an electrostatic...that is saying something!
b. just because a speaker is smooth...does not mean it lacks detail or life. it can sometimes be a matter of letting the ear adjust to the fact that the speaker is just effortless in its delivery style of that detail. Whereas some speakers make a point of delivering that detail. A digital (over-sharp) photo vs. a medium format shot. Medium format is smooth, rich, but wont zing you with detail...but upon close comparison to the digital shot...you (may) be surprised the medium format has at least as much detail...just more balanced and natural in its presentation. AGain...i am not saying this is the case here...i do not know the Yamaha speaker...i am saying while you still have the G's...make sure to listen in a relaxed manner...dont try to listen for "decay" or "individual notes"...listen for live music.
sometimes, i go into the next room, and see which speakers sounds like someone is playing next door.
c. i also will add that the G's need room to breathe...meaning placement is important. 6-8' in between the inner edges of the speaker...toe-in up to your ear...but 3' from back wall depending on room and your bass levels in-room.
When they breathe...they R-E-A-L-L-Y breathe magic.
d. read the review from STereophile...july 94?...online i believe for free. they indicate the speaker will react to the electronics fed it...from good hifi to "breathing music".
e. what's the rest of your electronics? to be fair, that has a big affect...but i totally understand you may not wish to play around with everything for this speaker. i am only saying it will matter in a speaker that is this revealing. the better speakers usually will reveal differences in electronics quite significantly.
hope that helps for now....feel free to ping with any other questions. good luck. |
D-I-L-Eye,
Another thought...depending on the music you play, i could understand your desire to trade for "larger, more open" sound. Its all about selecting the characteristics you cherish the most, and compromising in others areas...no perfection!
On that basis, you (may) wish to go the other Sonus Faber range in a more full-range speaker for comparable amount of money. Many people have said there is no "bad sounding SF" speaker and i am inclined to agree, having heard the majority of them.
You may lose that last bit of "single malt whiskey" refinement from the G...but pick up a very high quality refinement with much, much greater presence, openness (and frankly, bass) which might suit your music selection better.
Again, good luck and pls keep us posted on how things work out. |
D-I-L-Eye,
Sounds like you've made a lot of progress in your assessment! I would agree with your assessment, with some minor additional things you may wish to try. First, your assessment:
- yes, chamber music will be very good, jazz ensembles
- yes, this is a small speaker...it will not reproduce anywhere near live. in fact, if it helps you at all, i have not heard a speaker that comes close to live
- the power of a live instrument is sometimes very shocking to people when they actually compare side by side. however, what you will find in reproduced music is 2 things: variety of music from amazing artists you cannot have in your home, and sometimes a microscopic view of the music playing (which you cannot get in a concert sitting 150 feet away)
As for the Gs and possible "tweaks":
- Greater toe-in can sometimes "concentrate" the sound to give more impact...play around. toe-in such that you cannot see the sides of either speaker from your main seated position. you may have set them up perfectly already...obviously i cannot say.
- How far from the back wall? how you set up the speakers relative to the back wall will have an impact on bass quality and quantity
- Sub...i know, i know...more money. but i used to run the G's with a Velodyne Sub, and it make quite a difference. In my room, i had the sub cut off around 40-45hz, and it not only gave me bass...it added an overall larger soundstage and fullness of sound.
- if you can possibly "squeeze" it...budget wise and also room wise, its worth a shot. Subs are very, very difficult to tune into a system as demanding as the G's, but when dialed-in properly, you may get the best of both worlds...wonderful chamber music, life, organic human vocals...with the fullness for "Talking Heads bootlegs".
Just mho. good luck and best wishes, |
D-I-L-Eye,
Depending on your budget/desire to maximize the output of the Gs, i can say that i found a dramatic change when i switched speaker cables. i used to use Audioquest Crystal from the early '90s. i then bought a pair of very old, used Transparent REference cable...holy smokes, big difference. not a subwoofer, but i was surprised at how much more full it was. i do not know Belden, so i cannot say how good/not good Transp Ref might be...just another thought. good luck. |
You're being thorough in your approach, and no one can fault you for your decision. after all, its your system and your ears. You have been very consistent about what is not ideal for you about the Gs, and i have noticed you have been able to articulate it better and better. Good luck with the sub and your search in general. if ultimately, you decide not to go with Gs (w/ or w/out sub), feel free to email back about alternative solutions. Good luck. |
Hi D-I-L-Eye,
Been busy and am glad to see many AGoners have stepped in during the last couple of days.
- Glad to see the toe-in helps...i do not know your room, but suspected it might.
- If you slide the G's back towards the back wall about 1 foot, you might find greater bass authority...you will need to re-adjust the toe-in a bit so that you continue to avoid seeing the sides of the speakers...or because of the speaker being further away...you may prefer seeing just a small bit of the inside of each speaker.
- i generally prefer co-axial cable as well...if the MAC does not have it, then trying to adjust this part of your system may be too complicated in the short amount of time you have...dont worry. this is not the end of the world, and you are really looking for fullness and bass. (so see below)
- as for cables, ask your store if they've any old Transparent Ref cables. relative to the description of beldens, try even audioquest crystal cables. again, very helpful to give bigger sound...but see below for more thoughts...
SUBS
- As for sub...my own personal experience ranges back to 1995, and across multiple rooms, large and small. they will give you big bang for your buck for the fullness/bass it appears you are looking for, providing you pay attention to a few critical things:
in general, in smaller rooms, you will find the blend difficult to achieve perfectly...in my own experiences, i have always preferred to keep the sub in and live with the tradeoffs of an imperfect blend. this is because i often listen to hip hop, as well as classical/jazz.
as for blending, i think you if your sub can do a steep (18db-24db) crossover on the sub at 45hz or below (ie, shutting off the sub from producing sound at above this level of bass), and then turn the volume of the sub down to suit your ear, i think you may find your listening tastes may result in the pros outweighing the cons.
Finally, some thoughts on your dealer. clearly, he wants to make a sale...share with him your dilemma and ask that he give you a sub to try ASAP!!! Plus ask for an extra 1 week to trial the sub with the Gs.
As a final thought, swap the Gs for the Sonus Faber Cremonas (not the Elipsa which i believe costs more than the Gs)...the Cremonas look like the Amati Homage...but have a more straight forward sound...and being floorstanding will inherently deliver more bass than a G. And they retain much of the "family sound" of a G...please check but i think they cost in the same range as the G?
Good luck and feel free to continue ask any questions!!! |
Hi D-I-L-Eye,
i have read and re-read the very many valuable posts over the last 2 days...in addition to my reply post (which is pending), i would like to address your others questions:
- Aretha. i cannot hear what you are hearing...it is either that the other speakers are set up to be midrange forward (not flat), or that the Gs are not giving you fullnness (in part due to the cabling, toslink, etc).
The only reason i give these 2 primary suggestions for your observation about her voice being recessed/flat is simple: Sonus Fabers (and the G above nearly all of the other SF speakers) are reknowned for their reproduction of beautiful vocals. it is a speciality of theirs. So a flat vocal presentation strikes me as strange.
- i concur with DaveyF that room acoustics/traps make a big difference...i have NOT done this in my own room purely for aesthetic reasons (my system is in my living room)...but daveyf's posts seem entirely consistent with feedback from everyone i've ever spoken to who has gone thru the trouble of using acoustic treatments. in your case, a glass sliding wall is likely "leaking" bass reflection from the back of the speaker...hence why i suggested you move 1' closer to try to maximize whatever bass reflection you can get (without creating muddy bass by being too close). (i bet if the G reflected off a solid wall, the bass would improve...but perhaps that is not possible in your current room.)
- Again, please get the dealer to get you a trial with a sub...it is in his best economic interest to do so!... because you might just buy both!!! I have used Velodynes myself going back 15 years...but given your time constraint...i suggest you get anything...if only to get a "quick confirmation" that a sub will fill in the fullness/bass that you are looking for. if your "trial sub" demonstrates that you can do this...even if it is not perfectly blended, you dont have to buy that particular sub...but you can take your time to find the right sub...knowing that once you find it...the Gs and the Sub will produce the sound you are striving for. Subs today have tremendously more flexibility/blending capability than they use to 10 years ago.
Only you can (and should) make the decision about your Gs...all i can say is that you should take some comfort that the G has garnered a world-class reputation in the press (again Stereophile July 1994...free on-line), from owners, from audiophiles in general...all for good reason. The G truly is a phenomenal (stand-mounted) speaker. Set up well, voices should sound lush, beautiful and true...the soundstage will be intimate but detailed in a very natural, organic way...it will not produce a big sound in a floorstanding manner...but if you find the trade-offs of a sub to be acceptable, i think you might find what you are looking for.. if not, try the SF Cremona.
keep us posted! best. |
Good morning,
If they're Homages...here is a (very minor but instant) tweak for bass. Make sure to hook up the speaker cables to the BOTTOM connection and run the bridge to the upper midrange/tweeter connections.
ideally, you would have a high quality jumper cable...but that is in the super, super, nit picky ideal situation. nevertheless, i did notice that bass was notably fuller when i hooked up the speaker cables directly to the lower speaker terminals vs the upper ones.
meanwhile, keep us posted this weekend on sub. it really is worth a shot in a hobby that i suspect you are going to stay in for years...trade-ins and new purchases are expensive...but if u have a reasonable path to keep upgrading...because some of your components (like a G) can keep up with upgraded electronics...you will find you are trading in a little less, and certainly making fewer "lateral" changes instead of true upgrades. |
...oh and you may wish to try the speakers 1 foot closer to the back wall (ie, 3 feet from back wall) and re-do the toe-in either still directly facing you, or turned out just a little so that you can barely see the insides of each speaker... |
Hi D-I-L-Eye,
Continuing to do your homework! i am not surprised by your findings...the amp will provide detailing and quality based on amplification...but not a massively different soundstage nor boost in bass, at least not compared with our current amp.
as to the trial sub, i have not heard this one, but did some background checking on it and read thru the specs on the Velodyne website. In general, this sub should give you an idea of what is possible, but it is not a sub that will really be up to the quality of sound that your G produces. but as a test of whether the sub does it for you, it should suffice. some pointers based on the specs:
1. there are 2 ways to test the sub...use its internal crossover, or dont. try both.
2. if you use the internal crossover, use the line-level inputs...not the speaker cable connections. in other words, interconnects from pre-amp to sub...and then interconnects from sub to amp.
i would use the 80hz cut off, not the 100hz cut off on high pass. since it is a gentle 6db slope, i would probably set the low pass around 45-55hz on the sub...too much higher and you may find it "bleeds" up into the high bass territory (100hz) and then you get a muddier sound.
3. if you avoid the internal crossover, then again use interconnects and line-level inputs. the easiest way to do this is to get a pair of RCA adaptors which have one input and two outputs. that way, you stick the adaptor in the back of the preamp...with the 2 outputs, you put one pair of interconnects from preamp to amp, and one pair from preamp to sub.
again, set the low pass crossover around 45-55hz and play around with the volume setting to get the right blend.
in the end, this will give you an idea of what is possible...though the bass quality and quantity will not be the same as using the Velodyne DD-series which is their top level (and appropriate for use with G).
good luck and let us all know how it goes.
it sounds like a bit of trouble...but in reality, if you get the Velodyne to trial, just make sure to ask for a pair of interconnects and the adaptors. (if your preamp has 2 preamp outs, then you of course do not need the adaptors). My preamp happens to have two outs, so i use one to amp, and one to the sub. (i still use sub even with the SF strads) and it makes a noticeable difference. but my low pass crossover is probably closer to 35hz.
good luck!!!!!!!!!! |
Hi DILE,
I think as you no doubt know, there are many, many AGoners who favor McIntosh with SF Homage series. I cannot speak for the C2200 not knowing Mc myself, but it certainly seems like a very attractive proposition: you like Mc sound, many others who have no doubt had access to other products agree which can sometimes be comforting since few of us can try everything out there, and i agree with Jman that tube pre is a good idea here. GHs repond very well to tubes and having them in your pre lends you a little more flexibility to go with SS power if you choose to try the combination. As for REL v Velodyne, i cannot say since i have not listened to RELs much. i can say Velodyne DD series is extremely good for setting up in different rooms given its ability to fine tune...and do so in a very, very stratight forward manner. i got a good deal on Velodyne DD18 and also traded in my 10-yr old Velodyne as part of the deal. Take your time here. just like with the GH, get the right one...dial it in properly, and you wont regret it. good luck. |
Fantastic!!!!!!!!!!! that is great news, and well worth all the hard work and effort you put into it. If I was of any help, i am glad for it, but you did all the hard work. Many congratulations and i am really pleased for you...as i think all of us A'Goners are out who have discovered new levels of sound and satisfaction.
If you wish to explore the sub integration in more detail now, feel free to keep posting here any questions you may have. happy to help if i can.
on your comment about percussiveness of the bass, it sounds like you probably have a little more "adjusting" to do given how quickly you have had to work just to get the sub set up.
Now that you can fine tune with less time pressure, i wonder about your flooring...specifically if the percussion is too soft, it might be that the floorboards are "flexing" underneath. (It might could be the sub placement, or just the sub itself.) One "inexpensive test" to possibly "sharpen" the bass is to put 4 tennis balls underneath...one under each corner. The bass will get lighter...so just turn up the volume a bit to match...but the bass itself (can sometimes) become sharper , clearer and more percussive.
just a thought. keep posting! and many congrats again.
Lloyd |
DILE - i think Daveyf's words are wise. the GH's will "stiffen up" if exposed to brittle SS sound, even if the tube pre helps. if u go with SS, just watch for this when you audition. this is why i was fortunate to have a few people recommend Gryphon which i found s/hand. i remembering hearing older Mark Levinson, perhaps some of the cj SS...i compared their older line (before premier 350) directly to tube mv60...and mv60 won but the SS stuff was pretty good. i respected premier 350 a lot but did not A/B...if you can find one s/hand, these all might be worth auditioning.
on tube side, if you end up with cjmv60, that is a great combination...i have heard mv60se feels much more powerful...closer to 100 watts than its rated 60-70. i owned this combination for years. good luck! |
FWIW, i also concur with Daveyf and Onemug about the positives of BAT. you might find it more precise and transparent-sounding imho than Mc while still delivering the beauty of tubes. Both are good options though and system matching (to your ear) are critical here. let us know how it goes! good luck and enjoy, |
Hi DILE,
For $5K, you should be able to get a s/hand ARC Ref 3...very, very good. Single-ended and balanced.
I cannot comment on BAT v MC as i am not familiar with Mc sound. If you wish to stick with tubes, i do not think many people could strongly disagree...it is a solid decision with the right tube amp. And both brands have good reputations.
Onemug's suggestion is a good one...getting your feedback will be helpful as you audition.
As for CAT, i have heard these are excellent. i (think) CAT is a company where one needs to watch maintenance and care a bit. double-check this...i could be wrong, but i thought there were some posts here about that. nothing major, just that it requires a little more hands-on maintenance from the owner than some other brands?
do you have access to Audio Research? AGain, try a s/hand ARC Ref 3. there are a couple on AGon. good luck! |
Hi Daveyf,
thanks for the clarification. I agree on your last point as well. I have never bought blind before...even if i have had to go through contortion to listen to something. but it has been worth it in a couple cases where something i was "sure" i was going to buy ended up being something i respected, but ultimately did not love the way i thought i might.
The good news for DILE is that he seems willing to go through some level of contortion and effort...and like in his GH adventure...is likely to be well rewarded for it. |
hi DILE,
just bring your own preamp...one that you know well. it is not perfect, but it helps a lot when you at least (in one system) start to delineate what the 2 preamps do in the system in the store. you may also be able to ask the Owner of the store to set up a system based on equipment they have that you may further be familiar with, or equipment that is similar to equipment you know.
good luck. |
The Ref 3 is very good and quite a leap forward from the Ref 2 which i have heard before. That said, yes, ARC preamps are generally well regarded but i do not have personal experience with any others besides Ref 2, 3 and the 5. I have owned the CJ pv14l, and now the Act 2. I like them both, and have found the Guarneris to sound very good thru both. I have heard BAT pre (VK51 or something?) on Sonus Faber Amatis...quite crisp. I have heard Audible Illusions pre was quite good, probably similar vintage to the ARC's you mentioned above?
as for 'what to listen for', i would have suggested it is not too different than what to listen for in any component. What happens to the sound when you put your own component into the system?...what changes and do you like those changes? Some people prefer to 'color' their sound a bit using the pre while others prefer to get the pre to be 'straight wire with gain' (ie totally transparent).
As my system has been upgraded, i have found i am trending towards more 'neutral' components that err on the side of natural/warm. hope that helps and enjoy when you get back into listening mode. |
Hi DILE - congrats!!! and no one should be miffed or upset by your decision...after all, its YOUR decision!
From what i have read, you have bought some fantastic equipment. Congratulations. Northstar and Acapella in particular are both great from what i understand. i may even hear horns myself being in Hong Kong at the end of the month...Audio Exotics, the place of legendary fame!
Enjoy your music and good luck finding a new place to live. Moving house to get the right room for your speakers - now that's dedication to your music! |
