Hi Stevecham
interesting, I see where you are coming from.
I had a 'special' Dorian (re-tipped with a Gyger Special, boron) and it was very highly resolved.
Now some experts would say --- too much. Giving you some 'information overload' not considered to make it so musical...
Me, I'm not sure, since I have not really heard e.g. some SPU 'Meister', 'Classic' etc. considered to be more musically involving, though NOT due to higher resolution. Now, these would sport round or elliptical styli at best. You also NEVER hear anyone using these asking about distortion!
I had issues with my Dorian. Using an SME V, I feel pretty certain it was not misaligned.
Any comment from some specific listening experiences, you mentioned having gone through quite a few carts, right?
Axel |
Raul,
please give me the answer from your " music lover " point of experience about using (always well set-up) a Windfeld with 'Nude Ortofon Replicant 100' stylus (fine-line, yes?); 16CD compliance, or a SPU Royal with the same stylus but 8CU compliance on the same SME V arm.
Cart weight is 13g in the former, 12.8g in the latter. VTF 2.6g and SPU 3.0g
What is your take?
Axel |
Hi all,
I think on getting back to the subject.
So Frank (forum alias, Berlinta), has brought up a VERY good point.
HOW, do different stylus shapes INFLUENCE the HARMONICS of the INEVITABLE distortion we have (at least with arms describing an arc, 9", 10", 12", etc.)?
We will have distortion, of course minimised as best, and according to our preference of alignment, if applicable, i.e. not SME stock-alignment.
Now, we know (do we?) that odd-order harmonics are great for Rock&Roll - kick-a.se, air-guitar, etc. and even-order harmonics more on the smoother side of it all (at least as perceived) -- think of a lot older tube-gear.
Listening to classics, instruments etc. etc. might just be better with a more even-order distortion ---- our ear can handle loads more before it becomes too much.
So theorising in this way, will give us a small trade-off in detail, but a truly interesting option. It might get us more discerning about WHAT stylus shape(s) to pick.
Of course there is, as always, more to it:
Compliance, cart weight, cantilever material, etc.
But the stylus shape is a good point to start.
Next I might also want to try and look into cantilever materials, alu, hard-alu, boron, ruby, sapphire?, etc.
Since we are amplifying EVERYTHING, the least bit of a materials specific resonance, ALL can be perceived in a reasonably resolving audio chain.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Axel |
Hi Larryi,
well said, and exactly my very own experience also.
A 0.3mm change in VTA makes a difference (as I mentioned in a reated thread) --- but should that be so critical?!
It makes a case for non-optimal VTA for many another record, depending on thickness.
I have a suspicion that neither elliptical nor round styli will behave that way, plus the possibility of a more 'pleasant' distortion behaviour as eluded to above. Have we pushed the envelope too far in search of ultimate resolution?
What would JC have to say to this heretical thought?
Best regards,
Axel |
Hi,
some ideas goes like this:
The SMALLER the stylus the more it would use information deeper down in the groove and more away from the surface damage.
Additionally a smaller stylus has less weight = less inertia = better tracking.
It also goes like this:
A smaller stylus goes deeper into the groove and picks up more debris at the bottom where some less 'pointy' one never gets in the first place and therefore produce less groove noise...
Want to take your pick?
Also, a sharper / fine line et al, stylus seems a lot more critical to set-up than round or elliptical one. BUT it will retrieve more detail to the point where VTA gets more critical in terms of the treble getting more ahead in time by a steeper angle (lifting the arm base) or more delayed in time by lowering it, thereby producing the difference in sound one can hear.
Again I'm sure JC can shine some light on this, since I speak under correction here.
Best regards,
Axel |
Raul,
please explain...
>>> In your thread you want to " aisle " the stylus shape against distortion and here like in other audo devices the stylus shape is not an aisle factor<<<
aisle = gangway, passageway, walkway
aisle factor = ?
What exactly you actually try to say?
As to having --- own "ideas" based on ones knowledge and experience ---- isn't that what gaining 'understanding' is all about?
Unless we subscribe to the higher wisdom of such as the inquisition did. (Even they enquired as their name suggested, whether that added to their knowledge and experience is a story different entirely)
Greetings,
Axel |
Hi Raul,
you say:
>>> Axel, do you realy want a true precise/absolute answer or only to have an idea <<<
This sounds like bad some rhetoric to me, as you know that we can't have any enquiry -- "true precise/absolute" -- according to scientific method proper in this forum, or?
So then I say: I just want to have an idea... so then that's just pie in the sky.
I might as well have a cup of coffee rather, hm.
In any event, experiment (listening in this case) always precedes scientific explanation(s). Part of my method, go call me on it.
So there might just be some members that have experiences to share, which might be helpful.
I trust my ears first, and scientific examinations after that. This by the way includes all kinds of measurements. Measurements are facts, but facts seldom tell the whole truth. Measurements need to be interpreted, that's where the truth often misses out.
So, in case your question was truely NOT rhetorical, and you want to share your own listening experiences --- this was the place meant to do it.
Could get interesting for some 'end-user' sharing his impressions with e.g. a 'cart-designer'.
Greetings,
Axel |
Hi Raul,
thanks, I'm genuinely relieved. But as you can see, the way to ask a question can create a sort of "idea" already.
So, I guess you are on the same page, that useful findings (trial & error, experiment, listening) CAN help, as in your case with a design. In some other case to help make up your mind on which cart to spend your money. We still will have to synthesise different inputs, but at lease we precede from a more informed position, that's my idea.
I just had a case were some SPICE model of frequency / impedance behaviour of a crossover tells a 'scientific' fact. As it turned out there where yet some more facts not considered i.e. not known/noted/perceived. Now we add those into the mix and EVERYTHING changed, so we a a new fact.
I'm not going to bother you with the details. But the ear was NOT fooled, it was in fact the one that made use look everything over. So once again scientific explanation followed experiment i.e. the listening experiment.
I guess you are not a liberty to share your design ideas, that is a pity, but I guess understandable.
Thanks,
Axel
PS: I have a notion that some of this bantering that went on some other related threads, ticked off some valuable contributor, that would be a great pity. So let's see what gives... |
Excellent Emailists!
Thank you. That's the sort of feedback that is of interest.
You mention stylus swapping, which sounds like MM, is that the case - just to know for interest?
Raul, his holding some of this information off, I think :-)
He has loads of MM experience and with these styli, swapping is quite easy. I hope he is going to give us some of this sort of insight as well.
Many thanks,
Axel |
