In your opinion, what is Hi, Medium and Low end?

Agreed Mapman.

Dave

I reread Gogirls posts and didn't see anything condescending. She seems to be trying to understand the paradox of, if a four-figure system can be "high end" then, if so, why would you spend six-figures?

Part of it is the law of diminishing returns. A four-figure system will always contain compromises, at least IME. Forgetting headphones, where a 99th percentile system can be put together for under $10,000 pretty easily, most open air systems under $10,000 will not achieve deep bass. Music lovers a willing to make this sacrifice in order to really hear their texture of their favorite vocalist's instrument. This is a 90+% system, but it could be a 99% in it's imaging and presentation of midrange.

I wouldn't call that system mid-fi IF (this is a big IF)it does so with very minimal stress and electronic congestion in the presentation. OTOH, I've heard $50,000 systems that were full of electronic glare, congested midrange. A poor high-dollar system is usually only consider high-end by its owner.

Some of us grow old and find ourselves making lots and lots of money (it does happen) and find ourselves wanting to get rid of the compromises in our system, or at least most of them. (I don't know if there's a truly 100% system that EVERYONE would agree is the ultimate). I might could have done this a little sooner, but last year I moved from two-way mini-monitors to floor standing, almost-full-range speakers (roll off below 31Hz) and started upgrading the surrounding components.

My cables and ICs now cost more than my prior two-way systems speakers or amp. I'm chasing the final few percentiles of resolution and freedom from stress (hint, it's in the wires and sources mostly).

Is ego involved? Hell yes, but to widely varying degrees. For instance, my partner is building a four-million dollar house on the 8th hole of a famous golf course. Now there's an ego-statement, as much his wife's as his. Anyway, the sound system proposed by a consultant was MID SIX-FIGURES. I talked my partner out of it and he's spending high five-figures on security, lights and AV. Most importantly, he'll have a small, two-channel listening area. Several of his buddies spent the way more bucks, but their systems sound like pure crap. None of them know that, because none of them love music. It's a pure waste, based totally on ego.

The person with a more constrained budget still has ego. Many want to put together the best system possible for X-dollars. That's a man thing, mostly (my 21-year old daughter is an exception), but when you're constrained then you want to do the most with what you've got. This leads to debates, since there are so many choices that there's certainly no "best $5,000 system." I was part of this. I wanted to watch the jaws drop when my orchestral musician friends came over for a listen. I did that.

Now I struggle with how much to spend on others and how much to spend on myself. I've reached the point where a tithe is never a strain, so the question comes up as to whether I should give more. If I spend $10,000 on a CDP/SACDP wouldn't the money have been better spent helping typhon victims in Burma or tonado victims in the US??

Just so you know, I spent the $10,000 on my system, but comfortable with my ratio of self to others.

So, there are no absolutes. Must a high-end system be full-range, I think not, but it's not high-end in the same sense as the people that refining that last 1% of resolution, like AP. I think AP would agree, it's not the money, it's the result. IMHO, anyone with a truly musical system is in "high end". Of course, lots of people will disagree.

Dave

Gogirl, if one is willing to give up full range and go with a 2-way mini-monitor, then high-end can be achieved for four-figures, subject to that limitation. Many people do make that compromise and are quite happy with it for many years. I did that for decades and only moved up to full range in the last year or so. (My investment escalated several fold, partly because I can now afford the best components, but a doubling occured simply to get another octave or so without giving up the all-important midrange and imaging.

I think the definition of high end is defined in sound and not money. The key is that timbre be accurate and that the sound be transparent and stress free. Compromises must be skillfully implemented such that they really don't stick out (for instance, the roll off must be natural and graceful).

Dave

24 is NOT a late start. You're proabably ahead of the curve.

Dave

Gogirl said:

"...As for gear,its analog that thrills me,digital chills me..."

Digital is harder to "do right" but when you hear it "right" you will be pleased. Still, analog is the reference, so you're starting in the right place. If you insist that you digital equal your analog, then you'll be getting good sound everywhere.

Dave

Head-fi is a great community of music lovers of all types. There are so many members that a frenzy can start rather quickly, but it's well moderated and the participants generally know their stuff.

I prefer my speaker rig, but the only thing really missing with either my AKG K701 or Ultimate Ears Triple.fi 10 Pros is the slam of the soundwave against my chest. Super musicality, deep bass, sweet soaring highs and huge dynamics are all possible with cans for less than $1500, excluding sources.

Dave

06-05-08: Gogirl Said:
"Hello,I just joined this boy's club.My boyfriend has what he calls a high-end system.My dad says his system is only mid-fi
(I think I know what that means)When we are all together they always discuss their systems.I am tired of being left out so I joined Audiogon to learn.Actually I didnt understand the question but I understand Albertporters answer perfectly.
I'll keep looking and learning and will have some questions for you guys in the future."

Welcome Gogirl. Please excuse these klutz audiophiles for noticing a lady in the room. Since you have both an audiophile father and b'friend you understand I'm sure.

You picked right up on Albertporter's correctness. If you haven't already, link over to his system and you'll see not low, medium or high end, but "ultimate end."

Ciao,

Dave

06-09-08: Gogirl asked:
"...My question is does a music lover also need a trained ear to hear differences or when it comes to high end is it obvious? "

If you really don't sit down and listen to your dad's system a lot, then it's not surprising that you hear little difference. To some extent your ears do get trained, but it'll often require an "epiphany" of some sort.

One such epiphany for me was with high quality CD players. When CD was young I was using a very inexpensive CD player and wondering if I should spend big bucks on a top line CDP. I listened in a few shops and didn't hear anything. Finally, a smart retailer said, "Take it home Saturday evening and listen to it over Sunday in your own system." Even after an hour of ABing, I wasn't hearing anything and finally settled down to listen for enjoyment. All of the sudden I heard a clarity and openness that I hadn't noticed before. When I went back to my cheap player the glare and opaqueness was obvious. Later when I got in the car the glare of that player was obvious and almost unlistenable, even though it'd sounded fine to me earlier in the same day. I called the dealer on Monday morning and said I was keeping the $3000 CDP/DAC rig (this was 1993).

Anyway, the training part is that I now easily hear that coloration and glaze/glare. Cables display similar character. Some can't really hear it, but they get "listener fatigue" with one system and not another, it's often related to these kinds of causes.

"Making" yourself hear a difference NEVER works. You need to relax with your own system. Live with a system for a few weeks before ever considering a "tweak". Once you're used to the system and very familiar, then switch one component (like borrow some cables from your dad). Listen for a few hours and then switch back to the original component. Did you hear a difference? Maybe, maybe not, but if you did and it wss for the better, then switching back to the original will be very disturbing.

For those of us that listen a lot, getting rid of the stress/glare/glaze in the sound is very important, inabling much longer, more enjoyable listening sessions.

Dave

Albert and Jax2, if you go roll around in Head-Fi you'll see a giant community of dedicated, mostly young people, really into high quality sound. A young man in his 20s tweaked my AKG K701s by adding dual-entry Cardas cabling and a Neutrik plug. They're into tubes, high end DACs, vinyl, the whole shebang.

Head-fi is definitely the most active audio forum I've found on the web. Start a thread there and it'll be two pages down in thirty-minutes.

Anyway, when we're dead and gone I think that music appreciation will still be alive and well, just ever-changing.

Dave