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Imaging and the first violin(s)

If there’s one gremlin in my listening for decades, it has been a certain instability in the image in certain circumstances. I listen to a lot of chamber music, and I’ve noticed that the first violin’s place in the image can get less defined, particularly when the instrument is playing fortissimo. I’ve also noticed it in orchestral music, and sometimes in different ranges of piano recordings - moving from left to right.

I wonder if it is my setup - I’m along the long wall of the room, and while there is lots of space on either side of the speakers, it is not exactly symmetrical. However, I just moved last year, and the shorter and harder side switched from right to left, yet I get the same thing. Three different sets of speakers have exhibited this, and I’ve noticed it auditioning music in dealer showrooms as well (btw, don’t all those speakers standing around play havoc with near term reflections??). I haven’t done enough controlled experimentation, but I do think toe-in ameliorates it a little, but not all together.

I wonder sometimes whether the violins are able to, essentially, cut into the right-aimed microphone at certain levels. Or, I suppose, it could be a frequency-based imbalance in my own right and left ear hearing.

Anybody else notice this sort of thing?
ahofer

Showing 6 responses by lowrider57

lowrider57's avatar
lowrider57
5,397 posts
 
I agree on the importance of room treatments. My listening is comprised of about 90% classical (all types). I’ve never experienced the first violin or any individual instrument moving in the soundstage. Less defined, yes, depending on the mix.

Room treatments will define and shape the soundstage. I agree with Erik on all points.
In addition to position and toe-in, I’ll include rake angle of the speakers to help focus the image and position the soundstage.
In my room, using two absorbion panels on the front wall centered behind the speakers will lock-in the position of the instruments.


lowrider57's avatar
lowrider57
5,397 posts
 
On second listen, there’s no doubt that the violin is at full gain in both speakers.
My guess is they are using omni-directional mic’s which have a wide pickup patten. This, combined with the mixing of the performance to fill the soundstage would be my explanation.

I can’t explain why you hear this effect on other string quartets, except that you need to focus the image by adding some absorbion or diffusion on the wall behind the speakers.

lowrider57's avatar
lowrider57
5,397 posts
 
I have a pretty decent CD collection of string quartets, quintets, trios and the sound of individual instruments has always been properly placed on the soundstage.

Sometimes with piano, I'll notice that the sound has moved slightly left or right but then returns to the proper position. I find this disturbing, but realise that it's a mic'ing and/or mixing occurrence.

I'll check the tracks you listed on Qobuz and see what happens.


lowrider57's avatar
lowrider57
5,397 posts
 
@ahofer The Ravel is a beautiful piece. And on the 2nd movement I do hear the first violin moving from left side to left center during the early pizzicato.
I checked a YouTube video and both violins plus the viola are performing pizzicato throughout the movement. On the Qobuz recording I think I heard the cello move from right side toward the middle.

These instruments are wonderfully mic’d and recorded. I think what’s happening is since the mics are above the group and not dedicated to each instrument, the mix engineer is playing with the balance to fill the soundstage with music. This isn’t my cup of tea, I’d rather the performance be an accurate reproduction of the live event.

But it is a masterful performance with excellent sonics. It's a great listen.

lowrider57's avatar
lowrider57
5,397 posts
 
It really is a fantastic recording. But to be clear, it's not mic bleed. The purpose of an omni-directional mic is to pick up sound from all directions, 360°. This is minimal mic'ing and it's intended to sound more realistic by picking up ambience and more than one instrument. It's basic music recording. Much better than modern close-mic and muti-mic techniques.


lowrider57's avatar
lowrider57
5,397 posts
 
@ahofer,
Sorry for not getting back to you and I'll check out those links.

Regarding the Ravel 2nd movement, may I suggest that the viola is tuned-up a semi tone and is one of the instruments playing a pizzicato. Mozart uses this technique in his Sinfonia concertante.
 I'm listening to this and it is confusing how the two violins play pizzicato and melody while pizzicato can be heard away from the violins.

Just a guess.

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