If you were serious about sound you would...


If your audiophile quest is to get the best sound then buy the best equipment used to make the recordings originally. One of the few things nearly every audiophile agrees about is that you can't make the signal better than the original. So:

Solid State Logic 2 channels preamp 5k$
Meyer Sound Bluehorn powered speakers 2x 140K$
Pro Tools MTRX system 10k$
Mac Studio Computer 8k$
Total about 170k$ 
How is it possible to get better sound than the best recording studio gear? 


 

donavabdear

Showing 18 responses by mahgister

@mahgister Sorry brother you are still wrong about getting better sound than the studio for at least 2 reasons.

You completely misread my last post... 😊

I said that a very good system can reach studio quality if the listener in his dedicated room use the BACCH filters ... No studio use them, most at least ...

Why this is so ?

No need to appeal to thermodynamics and common place fact about entropy ... 😊

 

The source of music is not the mixing, it is the acoustic atmosphere captured by the mics and translated in our own room system acoustics ...Mixing must be a cherry on a cake not the cake when we recorded a violin or an opera singer...

The recording of acoustics spatial information is lost in all stereo playback ... It is known by acousticians studying the effect of crosstalk on spatial duimensions sound perceptions then on timbre also ... It is the discovery of Dr. Choueiri to created filters adressing this problem ... Using these filters then any high end system with them not without them can give a quality experience rivalling any studio which did not use them in their system ...

Heavily mixed music is not ideal by the way and my goal in audio, listening Bach for example, is not retrieving the mix formula of the studio engineer but the acoustic atmosphere specific in the recorded church /organ playing for example .. the mixing engineer here must obey the playing instrument acoustic constrainst in that space ...... I dont need the same audio materials for that as those used by the studio engineer ...Here i will need the BACCH filters with any high end system in a dedicated acoustic room for sure , not the same playback system as in the studio ...😁 I dont mind about the mix engineer specific intention by the way , i mind about the organ recorded playing in this or in that church ...The artist here for me is the musician not the engineer ... ( even if any great sound engineer is an artist in his own way ) i listen music not sounds ...

Having musicians play for you is not a good idea because you aren’t able to mix and change the sounds in the same way the studio can, unless you are listening to an acoustic trio or quartet with no effects live musicians also won’t sound as good as a well mixed group on your high quality playback system because your seat won’t be as good as the microphones placement (very important) in light of the acoustics of the room, the dynamics of the instrument, the reflections of the room the loudness of the instruments and many times the quality of the musicians and their different individual talent levels.

Exactly...

Now in classical music we want to retrieve in our room the way the instruments were recorded ... This is what for was designed the BACCH filters ..

And seating in a concert Hall we felt the acoustic impact of our location as a real impact . be it near or afar ; but listening the playback we want to feel the same real impact as if i was there well seated for sure but nevermind where ... It is not necessary to be on the knees of the musician or in the microphone spot when we go to concert , it is not necessary to feel to be on the knee of the musician or in the microphone spot to enjoy an acoustic real natural experience in playback translation in our system/room with the BACCH filters ...😁😎

 

How is it possible to get better sound than the best recording studio gear?

For sure the better the gear you own the better it will be ... This is a complete common place fact  tautology missing the main factors which is not the gear price tag and design even if for sure it matters ...

It is possible to improve on studio recording acoustic listening , why not, with only good gear even if it is less costly one than the recording gear from the studio , if you listen in a very sophisticated dedicated acoustic room with the BACCH filters for example on any relatively good high end system ...😁

 

Psycho-acoustics process and parameters rule the gear not the reverse ...

Gear fetichism is dead and psycho-acoustics mature enough rule...

Is this an april fools thread?

Not at all ...

It just that most audiophiles confuse gear and acoustic condition and information , They dont read about acoustics and think that when someone talk about acoustics he means merely some panels on a wall ...

I am not a gear fetichist... For me the source is acoustics information multiple trade-off in a room coming first from microphones types and location of the recording engineer choices then the source is the relatively good or bad translation by the system/room for the ears/brain of the listener location in a controlled or uncontrolled room .. The source is not the dac or the turntable by themselves  because  they are only the conveyor of this  timbre/spatial acoustic information already determined by the recording process but untranslated  yet in your room acoustic and for your specific ears/brain ..

The fact that we own high end costly gear may help but dont solve acoustic problems especially if we do not understand them to begin with ...

The source is not the digital or analog encoded information as such , but what is encoded by it : the recordings microphones types and location trade-off choices of the recording engineer, an acoustic space and atmosphere ...The way the dac or the vinyl choices through the gear system will CONVEY and TRANSLATE it to an acoustic environment which is the controlled or uncontrolled listener room depend of acoustics and psycho-acoustics controls of the listener room first and last ...

The source is the acoustic capture by micros of the live event recorded in a room which will be translated in the listener room by a system dac or turntable /speakers embedded in it ...

The main factors determining the S.Q. will not be what most people called the source which is only the encoding system (digital or /and analog) but the acoustics controls in the recording process making possible the translation of the encoded spatial information in the listener room ... The source is the recording process not the dac ... The source is an acoustic take not a language, digital or analog which ONLY CONVEY the acoustic space chosen perspective from the lived source ...

Then what most audiophiles called the source result from a confusion between the acoustic spatial information and the gear conveyor itself and his language , analog or digital turntable or dac ...

It is so true that unbeknownst to most audiophiles the spatial information about the sound are lost and spoiled by the effect of any two speakers system on the ears/brain by the negative impact of the crosstalk on the brain interpretation ...As say Dr. Choueiri :

«There’s a problem, Choueiri and many others maintain, with the way that stereo recordings have been played back for the last 70 years or so. “If you go out in the forest and you hear a bird singing, it’s not because there are two birds singing,” Choueiri explained with his characteristic intensity. “There’s one bird singing.” Stereo only creates the illusion of localized sound by manufacturing a phantom image “and your brain doesn’t believe it.” In life, a sound is precisely localized because of a slight difference in the arrival time at the right and left ears, as well as slight differences in amplitude and tonality that are attributable to the physical presence of the listener’s head and the shape of his or her ears. With reproduced sounds emanating from two loudspeakers, these relationships are considerably degraded, especially if the listening environment introduces reflections. Each ear isn’t hearing what it’s supposed to—inter-aural crosstalk is spoiling the party.»

 

Then the translation of the spatial information coming from the acoustic recorded space to the listener space is spoiled for ever without using proper filters to recreate this recorded lost spatial information in a listener room ...

The source is not a piece of gear , it is the spatial properties captured by the recording engineer, and any dac and any turntable at any price will translate it more or less correctly because for doing so we need first a dedicated acoustically controlled room and we need the filters as the BACCH filters to neutralize the destructive effect of any stereo system by crosstalk (or from any multi speakers system) the destructive effect on the spatial information takes coming from the recording engineer choices ...

Psycho-acoustics and acoustics rule the gear not the reverse ...

 
 

 

 

I totally concur with your post...

I think we are on the same  communication  level about the importance of acoustics then...

Thanks for your precision...

@mahgister It won't be long, my guess in 1.5 years that AI will completely changes the home audio world. Some smart company will use a group like the AES/EBU and record companies to agree on a baseline standard for acoustics. I believe that surround sound will be the norm and there will be an objective baseline in small room acoustics. AI will change everything because the most important aspect of good playback is acoustics, I'm bias because I started in acoustics but if you look at experiments with acoustic devices (passive not DSP) they can make even cheep speakers sound amazing. When this happens great systems will still be great and produce the emotions that we connect with in music and movies but there will be a standard and people will understand that expensive huge playback systems are a train without tracks.

Acoustics unlike digital audio is not defined by bits ACCURACY alone ....

Acoustic accuracy include many parameters which cannot be reducible to a playback system specs ... We need a room to measure these parameters and more than that we nead two ears with a head and the parameters which are associated with them...

Then the gear choices, when they are relatively well chosen to begin with , matter less than their acoustics embeddings ...

Then yes we need to pick a good playback system and it is not the one you will recommend for everyone and for all needs..

What we need is defining the basic acoustical, mechanical and electrical embeddings controls for ANY playback system..

For example, because of the acoustic revolution created by Dr, Choueiri, his BACCH filters must be included in any TOP acoustic embeddings list of controls...

They will work with ANY basic good playback system choices...

Any other embeddings controls will do the same...

It is useless to choose a playback system with no knowledge about his optimal embeddings controls...

 

we need as audiophiles to start to agree on some baseline definitions of what playback systems should be.

 

i dont trust anyone who speak about good sound and cannot improve  a lot any speakers room performance...

I dont trust people who propose branded name instead of acoustical, electrical and mechanical solutions...

purchasing an upgrade is useless if we dont understand how to improve to his optimum what we already own...

 

 

Thanks for your interesting story...It is moving and well written...

I dont get it though  if we speak about jazz and classical...

I am serious about sound...

But i have read about acoustic and i experimented with it...

You want to make your work known as a studio sound designer and i understand that...😊

But listening japan koto, or religious russian music or Bach organ i dont need professional mix engineer equipment at all...Neither for jazz..

Basic good gear well embedded mechanically electrically and acoustically is enough for any music serious appreciation ..

Am i wrong because i dont buy the gear suggested to listen to some designer creation ?

What about the other designer creations on completely different gear in their own studio ? 😊

I dont understand your thread it seems...Nor irony... I am french speaking and dont always catch the implicit humor in meaning and the implicit meaning behind humor ...

I love the first group and i hate the second group... 😊

There are recording engineers, and then there are recording engineers. The first group should not be confused with the second.

You are right and i think it is already here... A.I. is a real threat... All tools could be a threat but A.I.  we are not socially ready for that... Corporate power will control it not democracies which anyway exist no more..

Our brains can filter out the sounds of many people at a party and we can focus in on one conversation across the room, AI will figure that out someday

 

Sound can be  an abstraction....Or a tool...

As Fourier analysis is an abstraction tool  working in a linear way , out of the time domain of natural sounds where there is a a temporal duration order which define  speech perception and all perception of sound in nature , which are highly non linear,  as evolution train our body to perceive for survival...

Music and speech are concrete  qualitative experience for a trained body...

https://physicsworld.com/a/human-hearing-is-highly-nonlinear/

 

 
 

 

 

I totally agree with your analysis i just quoted under , this is precisely why i listen music , classical and jazz mostly and world music , music coming from an era where the recording engineer was a craftmanship work...No commercial or pop or anything else...I dont like unnatural acoustic programmed effects and electronic sounds... ( i only make few exceptions for musical reason )

I dont listen to "commercial industrialized product" at all...

It is so unnatural that i put them in a trashbin so to speak...

Then i dont need to be "serious about sound" and buying the mixing engineer pieces of gear i guess to listen to such manufactured products 😁...

I use basic good gear well embedded electrically, mechanically and acoustically... I dont need any upgrade and my sound is already more than good... ( my only future upgrade will de BACCH filters)

I dont understand what you speak about by "being serious about sound " .... I am serious about music and  recorded acoustic instrument and natural human voices and chorus...

What is exactly your point ?

If your point is criticizing audiophiles for their upgraditis and lack of acoustic understanding i am ok with that...It is evident ...

Otherwise my position is clear ... Psycho-physico Acoustic define sound experience not the gear price tag and specs  which are only  tools for acoustics and for acoustic experience...

Where this group goes wrong is evident in the posts even in this conversation audiophiles in general think sound engineers want detail and pureness the opposite is true most modern songs are compressed in dynamics and equalized all over, the "imaging" that is so religiously mentioned by the audio community is usually made by phasing tricks not by a producer mapping out where the musicians are playing on a virtual stage. Today because of Pro Tools and digital filters nothing is done as it was 30 years ago. The sound of the music is not real it is made up in nearly every way, the production squeezes out music like a cold line of toothpaste, the sound is unchangeable it is a baseline to be played in your listening room.

Stereo listening from two speakers in a room is not a NATURAL nor an OPTIMAL way of listening music and sound...
 
There is a crosstalk destructive effect coming from the two speakers interaction for each ear that make accurate spatialization of sound and even timbre accuracy inexact and artificial...
 
We can control mechanically crosstalk to some minimal degree and imperfectly , i did it myself in my system/room; or we can completely control it and optimally by some filtering DSP as the BACCH filters do it perfectly this time compared to my mechanical gross tools for doing it ...
 
Then it is not the mixing in studio that matter the most and certainly not the purchase of the same audio components as the mixing engineer that matter; it is the accurate recording information process to begin with and after that his TRANSLATION by a DSP as the BACCH filters did because they were created to make stereo more natural by eliminating crosstalk in your system/room keeping in a more accurate state the original acoustic LIVED recorded information or the STUDIO recorded one ...
 
Nevermind the gear you own , if it is of the necessary relative minimal quality to begin with , the goal is RETRIEVING the original LIVED acoustic recording condition and the information related to all acoustic factors masked and degraded by stereo crosstalk and by measuring your room acoustic and Inner ear and head related transfer function to do so adequately and perfectly ...
 
I am pretty sure that Dr. Choueiri , an acoustician will never claim that to experience good sound we must buy the same piece of gear as some chosen mixing engineer...😁😊
And upgrading any component with a costlier one will not eliminate crosstalk either even if we choose to buy the gear recommended by the OP...
 
Acoustics  knowledge matter much than  the gear choice...
 
 
@mahgister Perfection in sound has nothing to do with this, I’m saying that the signal can’t be better (more accurate) than the original. There is a limit to the accuracy of the playback the limit is the quality of the equipment doing the original recording and mix.
 
 
Most misunderstanding in audio debate comes from acoustic and psycho-acoustic ignorance...The misunderstanding comes from the focus put on the price tag and on gear upgrades instead of the acoustic...
 
But the OP commit the same sin , claiming that if we are serious about sound we must buy the same piece of gear as the studio sound optimization tools...He focus here on some specific type of  gear as the  only one  possible SOURCE for " good sound"...
 
Which idea makes no sense at all , because the source of sound is not DSP nor the gear used to work with it, but first the original physical acoustic INFORMATION conditions in most music albums , especially jazz and classical... LIVE RECORDING and STUDIO RECORDING differ completely and mixing serve the recording process in classical and jazz not the reverse...
 
And the accuracy TRADE-OFF acoustic process of recording is not the studio process of mixing or optimizing which is a digital and DSP accuracy , nor the translation of these two conjugated process the same as the system/room physical acoustic accuracy conjugated with the psycho-acoustic accuracy..
 
What is accuracy? one thing is sure digital accuracy cannot define alone the complexities of physical and psycho acoustics accuracy and it is subordinated to it anyway ....
 
Then what is the source of sound ?
For the playing musician it is himself playing in some acoustic conditions, for the audio engineer it is himself modifying the recorded sound for the better or the worst, for the listener the source of the sound is his system room , for an acoustician the source of the sound experience is the psycho-physical process around the ears structure and the brain in some controlled or uncontrolled  room for a specific listener or for an average listener ...
The source of the music experience is ALL that together... Then proposing to buy the same gear as those picked by an arbitrarily chosen  studio engineer is preposterous claim as preposterous as throwing money on too costly gear...
 
I will let extremely processed sound albums out here....Most of us dont buy that anyway...
The processing studio works in classical is there to HELP the original timbre playing instruments translations from some chosen recording microphones positions and choices TRADES-OFF, the studio job is done to help this recording process not to modify it or change it artificially for some results making the recording engineer the creator instead of being the servant in the recording process ...
 
The studio engineers working in the classical field recording work to help these initial acoustical choices in some acoustic location by the recording engineers ... They dont work thinking that all the potential listeners will buy the same studio system as them, but they know that customers will listen in many different room and acoustic conditions... They dont optimize the sound in a way that what they intended will be heard and decoded by a system exactly as their own, if they were doing so they will create a product completely different than the microphone trade-off recording process intended by the maestro or the musicians ALSO involved often in the recording process to begin with...
 
Then saying that playback studio is the source of the sound is false... It is confusing the recording process of live recording with the studio recording and mixing process among other confusions ...
 

The sound quality is not defined only by mixing and digital accuracy but by other acoustic factors as time and timing and different ratios of reflectivity...Then speaking as if " digital audio accuracy" was the main factors is confusing digital mixing with acoustic recording or worst subordinating recording to mixing as if the mix in itself  was the goal...And it is forgetting  that dsp mixing  are secondary compared the sound experience psycho-physical acoustic factors in the recording  concert hall and in the listening room ...

 
 
 
@mapman Great answer, but do you care about the most accurate sound or do you care about your enjoyment of music accurate sound be damned? Obviously you have given your expertise to the audiophile world which all around here appreciate. One of those branches is objective the other is subjective, your objective experience and commitment to audio is valuable but to me your subjective commitment to audio is only valuable is your ideas line up to my subjective ideas promoting confirmation bias something only the marketing department of audio manufactures need. I would really like your answer I don’t think there is a right or wrong answer.
 
 
And to answer this comment above, the subjective and objective factors in hearing are inseparable at the beginning and at the end... It is called psycho-acoustic... And digital audio is ruled by psycho-acoustic not the reverse... bit are not more true and more objective than some brain/ears experience.... Thinking this is reversing the acoustic science and subordinating it to digital process of translation.... Sound is not a digital signal... It is FIRST AND LAST a qualitative perceived experience...
 
Saying that audiophiles throw money to costly system and claiming that this can be preposterous in many case is a claim i can endorse but claiming that music is reducible to sound and sound reducible to digital signal is not even wrong... It is not even false.... It is a meaningless claim made with half truths around a way more complex interdisciplinary scientific matter and physical phenomenon ....
 
 
 
 
My guess is that a recording engineer wants to hear everything with the greatest detail possible when recording an artist. The engineer then takes those tracks and modifies them if working in the digital domain, according to the engineer’s and artists’ tastes. And now, above all, the engineer wants to hear in great detail what effects the the digital processing have produced. Then, there is the whole process of volume control for the individual tracks. This is done for analog recording also, or adjusting where artists stand or microphone position if recording a "live" performance. I see this akin to a cook deciding on more or less salt. The engineer is messing with how much each track proportionally contributes to the final mix. Yet again, the engineer wants to hear exactly what these modifications have done to the mix. So I am naively assuming that the engineer wants a playback chain that is extremely fast and highly detailed. Whether the playback system "sounds good" is of secondary importance. I do not think that equipment used in a recording studio is even designed to appeal to the tastes of the majority of home users.
 
 

 

 

I apologize because i misinterpreted your intention...

We think the same it seems...

@mahgister Perfection in sound has nothing to do with this, I’m saying that the signal can’t be better (more accurate) than the original. There is a limit to the accuracy of the playback the limit is the quality of the equipment doing the original recording and mix. Audiophiles often spend several hundred thousand easily on equipment but if you look at it in terms of using top recording studio equipment anything above a few hundred K is wast. I’m not talking about looks or room acoustics of course that has nothing to do with playback I’m talking about 170K$ audiophile preamps that are probably much better than any preamp that was used in the recording originally therefore wasted money. Hope that makes sense.

 

There is no "perfection" in sound... There is optimums levels for some specific acoustic factors in some specific physical and neurological conditions .... "Perfection of sound is a marketing myth sales pitch AT THE END ... Because each brain/ears is a specific "imperfect" toys/tools at the same time , the only one toy/tool we had and acoustics/psycho-acoustics do not distinguish between toys or tools...

Acoustic law apply for a toy room and for tool room the same with sometimes better result in the toy room than in some tool room or the reverse...

 

 

There are tools and they are toys. Toys are for consumers and tools are for professionals. That is the difference. Perfection in sound can be from both toys and tools.

In a word:

For sure no system /room can beat the recordings conditions and can replace the source, but only approximate them  this is trivial common place fact; but no recordings quality level can replace your system/room acoustic constraints, and the way to deal with this for the better is applied acoustics ... The solution is then not an upgrade buying race with no budget limit... The solution is studying and experimenting...

 
 

 

 

By acoustic and psycho-acoustic definition, we cannot compared home listening conditions with studio conditions or great concert Hall conditions...😊

It is like saying that a vehicle potential destination reach and speed and confort disposition make a Saturn Rocket better than a Ferrari and a Concord plane better than a Ferrari too but less good than the rocket...

And the ONLY interesting factor for most of us anyway , out of acoustic knowledge and experience that matter the most is the ratio S.Q. optimal level/ lowest price ratio...

I am happy now acoustically with a ridiculously low cost system well embedded... I listen music i am not moved by the look of a system or his price tag not even by his performance passed a minimal acoustic quality threshold... I live for music not for sound, and my budget is very constrained... my hobby was acoustic for years... but now i am in music because i succeeded with a peanuts budget to go and reach this minimal acoustic threshold of satisfaction defined with each acoustic experienced factors at the right place...

Less is better...Especially if it comes from your creative work with ANY system at ANY price in their three working embeddings dimensions ... I am proud of my work not of the price tag by itself or branded name alone...

Anybody with a wallet can buy the best in the world... Making the best with the less is more interesting on all counts for me... 😊

My hobby is now music...My acoustic basic job for many years is done and learned ...

"If someone is serious about sound " he buy books about acoustics and psycho-acoustics , not plug and play costly components...

What is the use to own the components you just describe if someone dont know how to control crosstalk in his system or create the optimal conditions for experiencing the best ASW/LV ratio ?

Sorry but i think you are not serious at all about sound... 😉😁😊