If a " system " cannot do this, I move on........


I have been advocating on here for some time, that horn speakers ( properly designed, tweeked, executed and set up ) are the only speakers that my brain and ears find acceptable, for the enjoyment of music listening. My listening standard has been live, unamplified music, for now over 50 years. I have also stated on many occasions, that as an audiophile ( as well as being a music listener ), that we are hindered by the recordings themselves, minimizing what we actually are hearing. There has been much talk lately about engineers using " auto tune " ( specifically with vocalists ). Adele ( I am a fan ), with her new hit " Easy On Me ", does not use auto tune, and I am thrilled. Besides being a great singer, she sounds " natural ", less processed. Most recordings in the past 20 years, have used this other electronic " equalization " if you will, that we find embedded in out prescious recordings. The strive for perfection, that " audio nirvana ", we all seek, with the purchase of a new speaker, amplifier, cables, etc., gets us only so far. So yes, dynamics and details are very important to me. Tone, coherence and spatiality are also very important. But the reality is, our recordings, by the time we receive / hear them ( whatever format ), have been severly altered from being close to the real thing. Yet, audiophiles continue to spend big bucks on their gear, their rooms ( their systems ), to get to that place of enjoyment. The title of this thread, " If a system cannot do this, I move on ", has a specific meaning. What I listen for, most of all, with every recording I listen to, is an engagenment between me, and the performers. Following the individual rhythms and musical lines, by the artists, is the number one factor I strive to hear. My system allows for this. My question is : how many of you actually listen for this, or even know what I am speaking of. My personal experience listening to so many high priced systems, has been very disappointing in using this criteria. I am not anticipating this thread to develop into a very large or popular one, but I have not participated in Agon for a while, and I just wanted to shine a light on a subject that is crucial to us and our time listening to music, which some of us spend much time doing. Enjoy, and be well. Always, MrD.

mrdecibel

Showing 3 responses by mijostyn

@mrdecibel , of course the effect is source limited. Some recordings, the minority are capable of supporting the "live" illusion, most are not. 

Horns, as big as they can be, are point source radiators. They produce a miniature sound stage just like any point source radiator. They project power just like any point source radiator, the volume rolls off at the cube of the distance. Linear arrays loose volume at the square of the distance, much slower. They produce a large, powerful sound stage. 

You do not want to ruin your ears with 110 dB but you can get the "live" effect at 95 dB just by boosting the bass a bit, 3 dB/oct below 100 Hz. But that has to continue down to 18 Hz, real in room measured response. There are many instances where the sound of a great home system is superior to the live performance especially where large venue concerts are concerned. 

Right at this moment there is only one full range line array on the market, the 8 or 9 foot Sound Labs ESL. Most people have the impression that ESLs are wimpy, easy to damage, lacking in dynamics and incapable of louder volumes. While this is certainly true of early Quads it could not be farther from the truth when Sound Labs are concerned. All you have to do is give them the right power and pass off 100 Hz and below to a subwoofer and you can go way louder than is safe. 110 dB is no problem. Dynamics are also not a problem. Nothing produces the snap of a snare drum like big ESLs. On Mechell Ndegeocello's Peace Beyond Passion the snare drum must have been recorded with the mic two inches away. That snap is thrilling to hear and sets the rhythm of each song. What a great record. "Jesus cured the blind man so he could see the evils of the world."

Even the visual sensations can be produced at home now. The Blu Ray of RTF's "Returns" is a great example. You can see as well as hear the concert better than if you were at the actual performance unless you were lucky enough to get front row seats. My own popcorn and a bathroom are just a few steps away. Parking is free!

I am pretty sure you can get similar performance from any type of loudspeaker. The trade offs would be size of the sound stage and the amount of acoustic treatment required to kill the room's signature. Horns are not a sure fire way either. Very few horn systems entirely lack that horn signature megaphone quality. The horn's most significant positive qualities are their efficiency and limited dispersion. 

@mrdecibel , I certainly did not intend on excluding the others. I was only talking about one note!

I was a DJ at UVM's radio station. RTF played both Burlington and White River Junction during the Where Have I Known You Before tour. I got to interview the entire band and had front row seats at both concerts:)

My goal has always been to create the "live" experience at home. To create the size and detail of a live performance it takes line source speakers. Dipole ESLs are perfect but they have to go floor to ceiling. To get the power of a live performance you have to use subwoofers and a lot of power. But, ESLs? Are they not limp when it comes to volume and dynamics? Not if you take 100 Hz and under away from them and with the right amps (high power class A) they thunder. Get the subwoofers right and you can easily create all the sensations of a live performance. You have to have the ability to boost the low end at least 3 dB at 20 Hz. I do 5 dB. That is measured in the room at the listening position, not at 1 meter. With multiple subwoofers in a line array you can limit room interaction and get pretty even bass throughout the room. Line array dipoles only require sound absorption behind the speaker. You can almost entirely eliminate the room signature this way. Experienced listeners will initially think the treble is rolled off until they hear a few cymbals. All the high end is there but it is in focus and not sprayed all over the place by reflections. The "brightness" of the reflected treble is gone. The drop in volume off axis of the ESLs is very dramatic and very sharp. Sound Labs are designed to have a 45 degree axis. They will do 90 degrees for very large rooms on request. If you stand directly to the side of the panel all the sound seems to come from the front wall even with 4" acoustic foam tiles on the wall! 

If people are looking for the sound and sensations of a live performance in their their home system it can be done. If using point source speakers you will be farther back in the hall. With line source speakers you are right up front. Either way you have to have aggressive bass performance below 100 Hz, down to at least 18 Hz. This is where all the sensation is coming from. No bass, no live performance. Room reflections create a sheen around the music that ruins the "live" effect. It covers the space between the instruments and voices blending them together. Only clever room treatment will get ride of this. DSP will not.

One of my favorite albums Romantic Warrior. When Chick (RIP) runs that synthesizer note down to the basement on Medieval Overture my piloerectors go nuts. 

Great recordings are not accidents, they are art. Great music systems are not accidents either. The very best are always intentional and they can take a multitude of forms arriving at surprisingly different but valid results. One characteristic they all have is the ability to separate instruments and voices in space with nothing but silence in between. "Talk About Suffering" is an acapella folk song on John Renbourn's A Maid in Bedlam album sung by 6 individuals with unique voices. This stunning recording will plant 6 individuals on a stage in front of you, the distance depending on the system. Each singer is an individual on stage with silence in between. Each so well delineated that you can actually listen to one singer at the exclusion of the others, a sonic hologram. In a less than optimal situation the singers become blurred together. The Cherubini String Quartets by The Melos Quartet on Archive is another example of near perfect imaging, each instrument clearly identifiable as an entity in space. Four individuals with one brain. Steely Dan,  Countdown to Ecstasy  is IMHO the best Steely Dan recording. On a great system it is an amazing ride.

In many instances, particularly large concerts (big venues) a great system can sound better than the live performance. I saw Tower of Power recently at the Hampton Casino Ballroom. It was a great performance but sonically it was a loud mono blur with boomy bass. The live 50 Years of Tower of Power album is a recent recording of the same playlist. The bass is detailed and authoritative. Each instrument and voice is clearly delineated. Turn up the loud dial and you are right there in a smaller venue with great acoustics. Eyes closed I can see the band on stage exactly where they were planted live, Blu Ray not necessary. 

Can a system based on horn loudspeakers perform at this level? You bet. But, the system has to be intelligently designed to perform at this level. It is 90% about the speakers and room. It is perhaps 8% about amplification and 2% everything else. Does the program source matter? Yes, the recording and mastering. Analog or digital, both can perform just fine if the recording and mastering are appropriate for the source. Anyone who boasts one or the other is biased. Digiphobes are an interesting group considering 99% of the modern music they are listening to is digitized. If the disavow all digital music they are going to miss a lot of great music that will playback on a great system just fine. 

I would not divide speakers into Horn, Dynamic, planar magnetic or ESL. I think it is more useful to divide speakers into point source and Line source as it tells you more about how the speaker is going to image. I prefer line source, dipole ESLs as I have been working with them for decades and am comfortable dealing with them in terms of room acoustics and amplification. If I were to go point source I would look seriously at horns because you have more control over dispersion. IMHO omnidirectional speakers are a PITA requiring more intense room treatment. 

As Harry Pearson defined it, it is all about finding the Absolute Sound whichever way you travel.