2. amps-preamps
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I went from Class D to Luxman A/AB - And most of what you think is wrong

Hi everyone,

As most of you know, I’m a fan of Class D. I have lived with ICEPower 250AS based amps for a couple of years. Before that I lived with a pair of Parasound A21s (for HT) and now I’m listening to a Luxman 507ux.


I have some thoughts after long term listening:
  • The tropes of Class D having particularly bad, noticeable Class D qualities are all wrong and have been for years.
  • No one has ever heard my Class D amps and gone: "Oh, wow, Class D, that’s why I hate it."
  • The Luxman is a better amp than my ICEPower modules, which are already pretty old.

I found the Class D a touch warm, powerful, noise free. Blindfolded I cannot tell them apart from the Parasound A21s which are completely linear, and run a touch warm due to high Class A operation, and VERY similar in power output.


The Luxman 507 beats them both, but no amp stands out as nasty sounding or lacking in the ability to be musical and involving.


What the Luxman 507 does better is in the midrange and ends of the spectrum. It is less dark, sweeter in the midrange, and sounds more powerful, almost "louder" in the sense of having more treble and bass. It IS a better amplifier than I had before. Imaging is about the same.


There was one significant operational difference, which others have confirmed. I don't know why this is true, but the Class D amps needed 2-4 days to warm up. The Luxman needs no time at all. I have no rational, engineering explanation for this. After leaving the ICEPower amps off for a weekend, they sounded pretty low fi. Took 2 days to come back. I can come home after work and turn the Luxman on and it sounds great from the first moment.


Please keep this in mind when evaluating.


Best,

E
erik_squires

Showing 12 responses by golfnutz

golfnutz
231 posts
 

@mapman 

I believe georgehifi mentions something about inefficient speakers, and that's what I'm referring to when paired with low-end class D amps. The Icepower 1200as2 were supposed to be the next best thing, however, that wasn't my experience.

golfnutz
231 posts
 

@tweak1 

You must have mentioned the EVS amp 100 times in all your posts so far. For someone with 40+ years experience, you sure have a lot to say about something that you never heard. You accuse others of being trolls, and basically that's all I see that you are.

golfnutz
231 posts
 
All I'm saying is what George is describing has been my exact experience. There is no way the 1200as2 is a high current amp putting out 600w (8ohms) or 1200w (4ohms). It might do well with efficient speakers, but it does not do well with inefficient speakers.
golfnutz
231 posts
 

@tweak1

Sorry, but it's still a tin connection when using solder. I'll give you 8 - 12 months before you have it listed on the used market.

golfnutz
231 posts
 

@tweak1 

By my estimate, the Icepower 1200as2 is around the $300 price per module. For the money, it's pretty good. Not so good for inefficient speakers though. All connectors on the 1200as2 are JST, using tin. I've had every single connector connected directly to the board (power/input/output), also using a high quality fuse. There was ZERO difference between direct/indirect connections. This is not a high current amplifier. My SS amp is much more dynamic and louder at a much lower volume setting. I'm afraid I agree with what Georgehifi has been trying to tell everyone (at least for lower priced class D).

golfnutz
231 posts
 
Yes, the 1200as2 is the Icepower module. By no means am I bashing class D. All I am saying is that this module does not do well with inefficient speakers (watt/puppy). I also have Pass Labs amp, and the comparisons are night and day (not even close). When I initially purchased the 1200as2, I wanted to use them for Home Theatre, but decided it wasn't the way to go. I had 2 of these amps and was going to get a third, but I made the decision to just keep my 5 channel Parasound amp.
golfnutz
231 posts
 

@mapman 

I had the Mivera amps.

I don't know much about the Bel Canto Ref 1000, but I did see comments on Stereophile that said this:

"This latest version of Bel Canto's e.One Ref1000M monoblock offers very high power from its diminutive chassis. It does work best with higher-impedance loudspeakers, however, and at lower frequencies. Fortunately, music rarely includes enough high top-octave energy to reveal the amplifier's unhappiness in this region.—John Atkinson"

I believe this is what Georgehifi is also referring to in his comments.

golfnutz
231 posts
 

@mapman

I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m only talking about my own personal experience, which matched what Georgehifi was saying. I’m sure it’s not just limited to the Icepower modules, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t great class D amps (even for inefficient speakers).

I’m not sure the Icepower 1200as2 was even designed/intended for stereo/mono amps based on these comments: "Intended for PA speakers, line arrays and professional single or dual sub-woofers"

https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/products/analogue-linear-mixed-signal-ics/1200w-class-d-audio-amplifier-130db-snr-built-mains-psu-2018-04/

golfnutz
231 posts
 
Seriously tweak? Do you really think 2 1200as1 are any different than 2 1200as2's? As for difficult loads, you'll only know if you have inefficient speakers. In my system, it was a flat wall of sound with no dynamics at all. How many times can a person mention the same thing over and over again (EVS amp) before you think they are trolling?
golfnutz
231 posts
 

@mapman 

Right, $300 for the module and maybe $300 in parts to put it together.

golfnutz
231 posts
 

@tweak1 


OK, 20-25 times, but it sure seems like 100.

Please tell me what I'm confused about?

I'm basing my comments on actually owning 2 of the Icepower 1200as2 amps. The only conclusion I've said was that you'd be selling your amp within a year. I hope I'm wrong, I hope you enjoy the amp. Just know, the resale on your amp won't be very high.

golfnutz
231 posts
 

@klh007 

Yes, I've read Phil's comments on the various forums - nice guy!

And I agree with everything you've mentioned in your post.

The Watt/Puppies go down to 1.8ohms vs 2.4 - 2.8 ohm for the Thiels. So they are a bit harder to drive.

I'm not sure comparing the 1200as2 to a Bryston amp that would shut down is saying much.

At first I thought my system sounded pretty good with the 1200as2 amp, but I had someone else come and listen and he convinced me there was a lot missing. I went to his place and realized what a decent system should sound like.


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