Na...you must do separates for good sound. I've worked in this for 15 years, 6 audio stores, and hundreds of installs. Do yourself a favor and do separates. Receivers powersupplies must delegate power to all the switching, processing, lights, dials, preamp/output section, as well as the amplification section....not to mention crosstalk and interference between components and such. Separates are much more efficient, and the amps can deliver better cleaner current most every time. I've never heard any receiver that can do what good separates can do. And I've sold the Denon 5803, Yamaha RXV1,Marantz SR18/14,and B&K receivers,etc., retail. Separates stomps these overall, especially in dynamics, detail retreival, overall resolve, soundstage, you name it. |
What separates can you recommend for under $3000.00? Tweeter has a demo B&K 507 for $1630.00. For the price I am very tempted. I was thinking for separates a Lexicon MC-1 (used $1200.00) and a Sunfire amp (used $1500.00?). |
If you want HDMI switching, currently the pickings are quite slim whether you are talking receivers OR surround processors. At this time, I believe only the Denon 5805 has HDMI switching and that is out of your price range.
If you can forgo inboard HDMI switching, I would recommend something like a used Anthem AVM20. |
What about Anthem? You should be able to get a used AVM-20 and an amp for $3000. |
The AVM20 here on Audiogon asking price is $1700.00. I took a quick look for used 7 channel amps and nothing under $1600.00. I want to stay around $2500.00 but not go over $3000.00. Maybe the AVM20 is only five channel, I don't know. Two of you mentioned Anthem, but neither said why.
I researched on the internet and found comparisons between the Denon 5805 and the B&K 507 and the reviewers chose the 507. I don't need HDMI, just good sound with some power.
I just spoke to a local retailer and he said Arcam AVR300. The only drawback is the 100wpc, but he also deals B&K and said the power ratings don't mean much the Arcam sounds just as loud as the 507. |
I'm awaiting on my Arcam AVR300. From what I understand, it will put out a true 120wpc into two channels. Also, you can biamp it if you use it in a 5.1 setup (two extra channels left). I haven't heard it yet but from the reviews it sounds like the holy grail of receivers in terms of two channel playback. I'm no mega audiophile but if it can at least compete with separates in the $3K and under range, I'll be happy. I've also read that the Rotel and B&K offerings are excellent as well. I passed on a B&K 507v1 for $1550 for my AVR300 @ $1600. I told my wife that the Arcam matches better so let's spend the extra $50. LOL, (my stuff is silver, the AVR300 is silver and the B&K was black).
Scott |
I just put together a system for my son using a Proceed AVP2 and a Marantz 5 channel 9000 . Sounds great , the Proceed is extremely intuitive for menus and set-up and the Marantz runs 150 per channel. The total investment buying preowned was about 1700. Check Audioreview.com for users opinions.
Another consideration is the Outlaw separates, great value for the bucks and certainly within financial parameters.
It's a dotcom buy direct company and their service is outstanding.
Good luck and welcome to 5 channel |
Why 7.1? You can't get any decent source material in 7.1, so why bother?
Why is Anthem recommended - because it's excellent bang for the buck. So is Sunfire, but it suffers from the successful (large) company = not-in-our-club attitude that prevails here. The sunfire Theater preamp in III configuration with an Anthem MCA-50 should be under $3,000 and a nice set-up. an Anthem MCA-5 or 50 can be had for about $1,000 - I still have my MCA-5 doing rear / center duties in my system, and it's the component that's lasted longest in my system.
If you're reaaly thinking about a receiver buy it used as they drop like rocks - buy someone elses mistake.
I wouldn't bother with HDMI switching either, as the frequencies video works at is bound to be adversly affected by a switching mechanism - be sure to get at least two HDMI inputs though, as very soon you'll need that for the cable and DVD inputs. |
If you are looking at used stuff, EAD was top notch stuff as well as CAL but unfortunatelky both companies have closed their doors. The prices have dropped dramatically but the service may be a problem if needed. |
Thank you all for your suggestions. I like the comment on the Arcam biamp ability and comment about why I need 7.1 not 5.1. I am leaning toward the Arcam. If I can run a 5.1 system and biamp my speakers with the other two extra chanels until more movies use 7.1 then I think the AVR300 is the amp for me. The reviews on the AVR300 are fantastic. Where did you purchase your AVR300 for $1600.00? |
I moved from a 507 to an Anthem AVM20. It cost me 1,700. I paired it with two Citation 7.1 amps (cost of 1,800 for 8 channels of amazing 150 watt power), four channels each. Very satisfied with the move, a big step up in sound. The Anthem has a better upgrade path then most at resonable costs, sometimes FREE (i like that). Plans are in the works for HDMI swithing to be backwards compatible to the AVM20 - of course a chassis modification will me a cost involved. That is the only video switching I'd spend money on, so I'm content to wait. My tv monitor, like most, just has one DVI connection.
I will say the B&K is very user friendly and has THE best remote of them all. The sound certainly is fine but nothing compared to having seperate amplification. I did a work-a-round because I missed the B&K remote so much I purchased an MX-850 off e-bay... an even better remote then the B&K oem version. Highly recommended... I even have it controling $125.00 worth of Lutron Spacer System dimmers in my room now... its the best!
B&K will charge a lot for their upgrades. Anthem won't. The Anthem's processing control over virtually every aspect of the sound is amazing... tweak till you drop, if so inclined. And their customer service is terrific, although I enjoyed that with B&K as well.
At $1,800 +- for the AVM20, $800 +- for an MCA-5II (5 channel) your at 2,600. I know you want 7.1, but after making that move myself adding 2 speakers, I wouldn't do it again. Your room may dictate all those speakers and I thought mine needed it but it was a waste. Better off with 5 idealy matched speakers then 7 in my book. By the way... the Anthem will allow you to automatically switch to your rear speakers for SACD/DVDr for instance and back to a standard configuration for 7.1 movies! How's that for control?? So if really want another 2 channels, those amps are around 500 more.
Just my thoughts. |
I moved from a 507 to an Anthem AVM20. It cost me 1,700. I paired it with two Citation 7.1 amps (cost of 1,800 for 8 channels of amazing 150 watt power), four channels each. Very satisfied with the move, a big step up in sound. The Anthem has a better upgrade path then most at resonable costs, sometimes FREE (i like that). Plans are in the works for HDMI swithing to be backwards compatible to the AVM20 - of course a chassis modification will me a cost involved. That is the only video switching I'd spend money on, so I'm content to wait. My tv monitor, like most, just has one DVI connection.
I will say the B&K is very user friendly and has THE best remote of them all. The sound certainly is fine but nothing compared to having seperate amplification. I did a work-a-round because I missed the B&K remote so much I purchased an MX-850 off e-bay... an even better remote then the B&K oem version. Highly recommended... I even have it controling $125.00 worth of Lutron Spacer System dimmers in my room now... its the best!
B&K will charge a lot for their upgrades. Anthem won't. The Anthem's processing control over virtually every aspect of the sound is amazing... tweak till you drop, if so inclined. And their customer service is terrific, although I enjoyed that with B&K as well.
At $1,800 +- for the AVM20, $800 +- for an MCA-5II (5 channel) your at 2,600. I know you want 7.1, but after making that move myself adding 2 speakers, I wouldn't do it again. Your room may dictate all those speakers and I thought mine needed it but it was a waste. Better off with 5 idealy matched speakers then 7 in my book. By the way... the Anthem will allow you to automatically switch to your rear speakers for SACD/DVDr for instance and back to a standard configuration for 7.1 movies! How's that for control?? So if really want another 2 channels, those amps are around 500 more.
Just my thoughts. |
I recommended the Anthem because it a huge bang for the buck, will compete with gear costing twice as much -- and because I don't believe you will be happy with a home theater receiver -- I believe you will quickly wish you'd purchasd separates. So, factor in the cost of buying a receiver, shipping it, realizing you're not satisfied, selling it, and buying separates. Now, think of the time and money you'll save going directly to separates -- and you can still buy an Anthem AVM20 and a 5 channel amp [used] while staying under your budget of 3,000. Also, as Sailfish mentioned, they offer upgrades from time to time, which will help you stay current. |
7.1 isn't going to happen. It's bad enough getting all the extra channels of amplification and finding, locating extra speakers 5.1 much less for the very minor improvement in surround performance in 7.1.
Likewise, bi-amping is a minor improvement for the $ involved. There's better places to put your $. |
I decided on the Arcam AVR300. Thedautch is using the AVR300 with Merlins and recommends it as well as two dealers that carry both the Arcam and B&K. It should be here in 5 days. Can't wait. I looked at separates and found a review that compared the AVM20 to the Arcam AVR300 and the reviewer said he liked the AVR300 processor better. If I needed more power I could add an amp to the AVR300 analog outputs when I needed. This made the most sense. |
As you said in your post, "I do belive a receiver can sound as good as separates." This makes logical sense why you'd go the Arcam route.
While I have no doubt the Arcam makes good sound for a receiver, and I used to sell that line, it can't compete with separates...good separates that is.
Do yourself a great favor sometime, and add an outboard amp the the receiver, and use the ARcam as a pre/pro. YOu'll be amazed how much better the sound quality is from even a lowely parasound 5 channel amp, and similar!!! The amp's in those receivers really can't hold a candle to a dedicated amp. It's always been that way...not to mention a good pre/pro's preamp section is better as well, especially dynamically.
For the record, and I've sold some good sounding receivers over the years including the original model 100 Arcam, I'd NEVER spend $2k on ANY RECEIVER, EVER! I've worked in this business to long to know better. The sound is just not there for that money. A used $1200-1500 pre/pro and $600-1000 multi channel amp punishes any receiver ever made from my experiences. But, it's fun finding out this stuff, I"ll conceed that. |
Thank you Flrnlamb. That is the exact route I am planning to take. The AVM200 used is asking $1700.00 currently on this site. I am getting a new Arcam AVR300 for $1625.00 including shipping. From what I have read, the AVR300 has an exceptional pre-pro. If the 100wpc AVR300 integrated amp isn't enough then I will purchase a separate multi channel power amp to use with the AVR300's pre-outs. |
Flrnlamb, I'm no techie, and I respect your experience and knowledge. I come from the high end audio world and up until last winter I would have totally agreed with you about seperates. I generally still do.
But have you actually HEARD the AVR300?
I'm tellin' ya, after auditioning it, the AVR300 is a different animal from your typical HT receiver. It's by far the best HTR I've heard and it really does approach the performance of separates IMHO. It's a whole 'nother league better than the AVR200 and in a completely different universe from the AVR100.
I thought the pre-pro section of the 300 was a real honey, worth the price for that alone. I don't know precisely how Arcam separated the power supplies, isolated noise or what other voodoo they worked, but the amps in the 300 are much better sounding than the 200. Unless you have thirsty, current hogging speakers, I think the AVR300 sounds much better than any other solution I've heard near its street price ($1600-1700) - and that includes the medium priced separates I auditioned (Rotel, B&K, Parasound, and Anthem).
I found the AVR 300 to be very spacious, resolving and dynamic with reasonable speakers, and this is from someone who usually hates music through receivers of any sort. (I'm used to listening to music through full range Alons Vs with 6K mono amps and a 4K preamp). No hardness, no glare, no congestion. In fact, the 300 has an ease and openness that's very appealing.
Music reproduction is where the Arcam outshines other HT receivers and modest separates. The AVR300 doesn't come close to beating my 2 channel system electronics, but my gear cost six times as much - it should sound better! Yet music is very enjoyable through the Arcam - you don't think about what you're missing while listening through it.
IMO the AVR300 is an excellent solution for music lovers getting into HT and HT fans who also want good sound for music. It offers genuine value for the money. They can always use the 300 as a pre/pro and add an outboard multichannel amp as their systems grow. A lot will depend on their speaker demands and room size.
Does the AVR300 surpass the top of the line Lexicons, Krells, Carys, et al? No, but it costs thousands less and for many people, this is as much amp and pre-pro as they'll ever need. |
Rackon, thank you for the insight! I very much have NOT heard the AVM300. So, yes it's likely I'm off base here. This has just been my experiences over and over again. The AVM300 may indeed be "all that", and "separates-like" in performance. I think I shall look into this "thing" a bit further.
I appologize to the Arcam receiver if I offended it, or sold it short. I must give it a try to see what it can do. Let the auditioning begin. (and I really do hope it works up to it's hype. I may then recommend it thereafter as a subsitute at the price point) |
LOL, Flrnlamb, I don't think Meridian, Lexicon or BAT are shaking in their boots or anything, nor are the boys in Cambridge UK offended (they're too busy taking this one to the bank).
For demanding speakers or SOTA HT you still need separates. But for average folks in average sized rooms the AVR300 does a great job at a very good price point. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on it.
BTW, Stereo, the AVR300 sounds better with an after market power cord. I used a TG Audio SLVR - I think the dealer was using Audience cors (not sure about that). Give the Arcam some break-in time too. |
Thanks for the power cord info Rackon. It's a great receiver! I would like to bi-amp my Merlins, but don't want to spend $250.00 for another pair of cables. |
