I need to be wowed


Next month I'll be starting my hunt for new speakers...new to me, at any rate.
And I will be obsessed...

What I've got:
Arcan Alpha 9
Plinius Integrated 2100i
Analysis plus 12's bi-wire
and shortly HT Pro MK2 IC's
and a *DOUZY* of a room:
http://www.geocities.com/sundaesundaesundae/audio.html
Oh, that room.I think that's the key....I learned early on how much room interaction plays in sound.

I listen almost strictly to classical music....small ensemble/piano/violin/but yearn for large scale to sound
wonderful too. Also listen to acoustical classical/folk/female singers...

What I want:Tonal quality most important....I tend to like laid back/dark sound but needs to be involving and have intensity...
and oh, yes....they must come in black.
What I don't want: Bright tweeters!

Just for comparison I had wanted to hear some stats but have been told there was no way bipoles could work with
in my room....although someone suggested Innersound Isis ....and Gradient(out of my price range)..
I had also been intrigued for a while by Newforms but the fact that most who own them feel the need to do
mods bothers me....I want to own them....not build them...

Any suggestions will be much appreciated!

allegro12
I absolutely agree about placement..believe me....I can even hear the difference in an inch or two..
however, if you look at my room photos...there really is no way to alter placement...give or take a feet inches...
As I have the speakers right now the spiral staircase has only necessary clearance..any further out and you'd literally have to climb over the speakers to get upstairs...
.I even thought about reversing the room even though it'd be bizarre, but the only two pieces of furniture
wouldn't fit...
I'm really nor being inflexible for aesthetic reasons....it's just not possible to reposition...
I'd really love to...!
As for home audition....I will try...that's my biggest fear...that with these 22' high ceilings...nothing will sound
the same as in a demo room...
I didn't find the remark condescending...just passionate...and that's a language I understand.
Thanks,Bishop and Will!
Greetings, ah, "Dudette",

I recognize you from your room photos, if nothing else.

The Shahinians and Vandersteens and Spendors mentioned make sense to me from a voicing standpoint; but the Thiels and Martin Logans and Dunlavy's would not, in my opinion, be likely winners for you. If the Shahinians would work in that location they'd be excellent, but I'm not sure about positioning them that close to the wall. Such wide dispersion speakers tend to be quite demanding of speaker placement, but then quite forgiving of listener placement.

I have not heard the Naim speakers mentioned, but they might be an excellent choice if that wall right behind them significantly reinforces the bottom end. You see, I can't judge from here whether or not it really does - those huge openings to either side of the speaker probably reduce the amount of bass lift you get. So I have a question for you -

When you move your speakers out from the wall, does the bass and midbass lighten up considerably? Or does the tonal balance stay pretty much the same?

If the bass and midbass lighten up considerably when you move your speakers out, then you probably want speakers that are voiced to sound good close to a wall, like the Gradients or perhaps the Naims. If the bass and midbass stay pretty much the same, then I'd suggest the Vandy's or Spendors or maybe Shahinians. Hey, the Shahinians can be painted, if necessary.

Let me comment a bit on the bass tuning to explain why it makes a difference whether the speaker is designed to be placed near a wall or not.

Suppose a speaker is designed to be flat to 35 Hz in an anechoic chamber. Now put that speaker out in the middle of a room, and it will sound pretty good down to the mid 30's. But put it close to the rear wall and bring a sidewall into the picture, and the bass is boosted so that it's up maybe 3-6 dB in its lower region, say between 30 and 40 Hz. This speaker will now sound tubby and sluggish in the bass, and the midbass may be chesty and thickened as well.

Now suppose instead we tuned the same speaker to be flat down to only 45 Hz, but then to gently roll off so that at 27 Hz it's only maybe 6 dB down. If we put this speaker close to the wall, the bass will now go down to 27 Hz or so without peaking, and retain good transient response and natural midbass. This is the kind of bass tuning the Gradient Evidence uses, and it sounds very good in practice. Acutally, the tuning of the Evidence can be adjusted via jumpers so that it sounds natural either close to the wall or out a bit. But the Evidence would not be an ideal speaker for way-out-in-the-room placement.

The coolest thing about the Evidence is its mid/tweet module, which uses the same cardioid loading as the mid/tweet module of the Revolution (it's the same unit, just not in a separate enclosure). This cardioid radiation pattern puts out virtually no energy towards the rear, so there is essentially nothing to be reflected off of the rear wall above 200 Hz. Virtually all other speakers are going to reflect a significant amount of midrange energy off the rear wall because monopole woofers and midranges have a pretty much spherical radiation pattern in the midbass and midrange region (up to maybe 1 kHz or so). So as far as eliminating midrange reflections off the rear wall, the Gradient Evidence and Revolution are pretty much unique in their price ranges. And the Evidence's voicing is like the Revolution's - very relaxing and non-aggressive. No hot tweeters here. By the way, I checked and the Evidence does come in black.

Here's the link to the propaganda page for the Evidence. Be sure to go to the second and third pages of the link - the third page in particular has cool information about optimizing the bass tuning. And, for more information on the cardioid-loaded mid/tweet, look at the Revolution pages also. Evidence page: http://www.gradient.fi/En/Products/Evidence/Evid1.htm

I absolutely agree that you've got to have an in-home audition to be sure you're making the right choice. I think the stuff I sell would probably work for you, but there's really only one way to find out.

So anyway if you have a chance, please check out the effect on the tonal balance of placing the speakers right up against that wall, and then of pulling them out about three or four feet, just so we have an idea of how much bass lift you will be getting, because that really needs to be factored in to make a good recommendation from here.

Best of luck to you in your quest, intrepid Dudette!
One thing I noticed looking at your room photos was not only the front wall height of your ceiling, but the angle at which it comes back down toward the listening position. If I am seeing it correctly, the angle is approaching something like 45 degees, with the height at the back wall being close to normal 8 ft. This means the first reflection point for the sound off the ceiling is almost over your head, instead of half the distance between the listener and the speaker, as with a normal flat ceiling. This in turn implies of much shallower degree of off-axis positioning of the reflection point relative to the speaker's higher-frequency drivers, which could be affecting the spectral content of the reflection. Since speakers are voiced to sound correct with conventional ceilings - insofar as their dispersion roll-off characteristics will affect the perceived balance of direct/reflected sound - I am theorizing that your ceiling configuration could be unduly brightening the resulting tonal balance. If true, this would point toward some kind of acoustical treatment for your ceiling first-reflection point as a remedy. I may be in over my head with this idea (bad pun!), but it seems to make sense, so maybe consulting with someone qualified in acoustic design before doing anything would be indicated. Good luck!
Yes...that 22' slopes down to 9' behind the listener couch wall..(me being the listener)
..thank you for explaining that..it makes more sense to me now what happens to sound and why I apparantly have such a big problem...
..ceiling treatment would be aesthetically fine for me to utilize if it'd help....
Three very simple letter is the answer to your prayers....

A T C

They are from England, they've mainly only done professional sound until recently (they're in 60% of the recording studios, including Sony and Todd AO). They are finally here in the states, and they won the Stereophile system of the year for 2001. I just bought 3 of the ATC 100's for the front of my home theater. They are internally TRI-amped, so sell the amps and put the money into the best ATC's that you can afford... Check out their website for yourself:

www.atc.gb.net

When I first heard them, it's a WHOLE new ballgame in terms of performance level. They are you going to knock the tar out of the American market... Mark my words...
I turned another guy from here onto them. He wrote me an EMail the other day graciously thanking him for the lead.
All I can say is trust me, you must listen. Nothing too forward, the sound is sooo accurate, and a GIANT soundstage with the most amazing imaging. Do your research, demo them here in Denver (I'll send out contact info) and all I ask for is an email of thanks....

Here's some recommendations based on your budget range:
ATC powered 10's $2500/pr
ATC powered 20's $8700/pr
ATC powered 50's $13000/pr
ATC powered 100's $14600/pr
ATC powered 150's $25500/pr

At the CES show this year, Sony SACD booth had 5 ATC 150's for their demo of their new SACD 5.1 surround format. I've never heard better. This is NOT a sales job, I get No money for any type of endorsement, I'm a petroleum engineering manager and I'm trying to help other audiophiles get into the speakers that Stereophile and I agree are the most amazing in the world!

IF you can afford it, get into the powered 20's or powered 20 towers, it's the real breakover point. But at $2500/pr, the 10's are the BEST value for the money in that price range.
It's funny how some folks consider the terms "2K budget" and "new to me" to be such relative concepts....If you can figure out (or somebody can suggest) a way to get a quilt to stay put on the ceiling temporarily without marring the paint, you could do the experiment in acoustic treatment I mentioned above for yourself....
More to discover