What kind of speakers are you using. What is their efficiency, and processor output setting?
Do you have a subwoofer? Marty makes a good point, because if you use a subwoofer you can set all your speakers to "small" rather than a "large" setting if that's what you're doing. This will take a big load off your speakers especially your mains and allow them to perform better without having to reproduce the LFE channel.
We could use a little more information. |
Lej1447,
Five years ago I set up an HT system using a Marantz 5.1 pre/pro and an ATI AT1505 5x150 watt amp feeding five NHT monitors. I also have an NHT 12" sub and all this is in a 12x14 room. By now all this equipment is yesterday's tech, but I haven't had the urge to upgrade since. It may be because my interest has been focused on 2 channel listening ever since.
But I wll tell you that I never feel a need for more power or dynamics even on demanding movie scenes. It may have to do with what some of the respondents here have recommended about using a high current amp other than the Denon for your front channels. With the monitors set to small and the subwoofer set to cover everything below what the monitors are fed, I get the full effect of crashes, explosions and dinosaur stomps in a convincing and controlled manner.
In my small room, I feel adding more channels isn't necessary. |
Lej1447, as I said previously if your speakers are currently set to "large", before considering any further purchases I would definitely recommend changing them to "small" then take the time to evaluate your system.
If the 8.3s are reproducing full-range sound, they may be struggling during transient spikes and dynamic movie scenes. Using the Denon's bass management to set the crossover in the 80-100Hz area would definitley help ease the workload on the 8.3s. Let the sub handle the dirty work!
If you feel you're still experiencing this same problem, then consider buying a good three-channel amp for your front speakers. As some of the previous posters have mentioned, having matching speakers AND power across the front is important for timbre matching and good panning/steering.
Try the cheap fixes first! |
Marty, the 80Hz LFE setting you mention IS actually quite standard. Although many processors and AVRs these days have bass management systems that allow adjustability of this frequency, 80HZ seems to be the THX standard [for whatever that's worth], heheh. My old Marantz AV550's LFE however is stuck only at 100Hz, but it works fine for me.
About five years ago when Outlaw came out with its first amp it was rumored that it was an OEM ATI AT1505 exactly like the one I own. The casing and most of the innards were nearly identical, but the price was considerably lower. Since then, and I haven't really kept close tabs, they have released AV procesors and receivers, but I can't vouch for their quality. However, they seem to offer good products at a good value.
Lej1447, as a whole I feel that getting more amp than you need is better than not having enough, and this is especially true for 5.1 encoded movies and their big bang effect tracks. I use dinky NHT mini monitors that are anywhere from five to eight years old being driven by 150 watts to each channel and have never had a problem with lack of dynamics, clipping or being overdriven. Having a lot of clean power on tap reduces the tendency of the amp going into clipping possibly like your Denon is with the AR 8.3s. Setting your speakers to small will help in this direction. |
Ooops, sorry to confuse you more Lej1447!! :-)
In my opinion, most people view bass reproduction in a monitor or main speakers as secondary to how it performs with everything above those frequencies. This is just my opinion, others may disagree.
I use ProAc monitors in my music system because of the way they reproduce midrange and how they soundstage, and because they sound great with vocals and acoustic instruments. I do ssometimes use a subwoofer with them to add some bottom end weight for music, but I don't have a crossover in the path of the ProAcs because it would muddy their great midrange. I let them run full range, becasue I never have the need to crank them to movie sound levels just for music.
For home theater however, the criteria in picking main, center and surround speakers probably wouldn't follow those guidelines because reproducing the crashing effects of movies and a jazz quartet are two different animals. Because of the great demands a movie score can put on any speaker, whether monitor or full range, I think more emphasis would be placed on power handling and the actual placement of the speakers to create an effective HT experience. Picking speakers that are tonally agreeable with you is important as well, but the other factors I mentioned would probably be more heavily weighed with HT speakers because of movie soundtrack dynamics and proper placement for the "theater" experience.
My viewpoint is obviously biased as I place much more importance on my 2channel rig than my HT system. I did a little research on your speakers and it seems to me that weren't intended for "true" full range use because of their rated 45Hz bottom end, aluminum cabinet and "in-wall/wireless" classification. Running them in this fashion could strain them sooner than a speaker designed to be full range if pushed. One thing you could try is to set the main speakers to large when 2 channel listening and switch back to small for impactful movies. An interesting review of the ARs in different HT applications can be read here:
http://www.audioweb.com/Newsstand/SensibleSound/ARPhantom83.asp
Many people receive more enjoyment from HT than music and spend big bucks to create an immersive movie viewing experience, and that's cool too. They invest in floorstanding main speakers like the NHT VT series or Aerial Acoustics 8B or 10Ts that are capable of excellent bass so they can set them to "large" and ONLY the LFE information goes to the sub/s. Yes, there is material in a movie soundtrack that may sound better coming from 2 good full range mains while leaving that which is specifically intended for LFE to be handled by the sub. But in a small room like yours or mine where space is limited and the benefits of such a set up are questionable or impractical, going with all satellites and a sub makes more sense.
I hope this response isn't too haphazard and makes some sense to you, heheh.
Also, Buscis2's recommendation about looking into the quality and quantity of AC current available to you has merit. Big amps in systems producing big bass especially those for movies with multiple channels put incredible demands on the amount of current drawn from the wall. That's the reason many audiophiles might run their source, DAC and preamp into a power conditioner, but run their power amp directly into the wall. Many audiophiles claim that power conditioners reduce the amount of immediate current on demand, thus limiting dynamics during spikes in the music. I've noticed this phenomena as well, and that's why the Bryston 4B that powers my subwoofer doesn't go through a power conditioner but directly to the wall with a good power cord. Many audiophiles go a step further and have their wall receptacles upgraded and even their house rewired to accommodate power amps that draw a lot of current.
Sorry to keep piling explanation upon explanation on you, but there are many issues that might be involved. I would still recommend looking at the simplist experiment first, and that is setting all your speakers to "small". If the problem with your amp going into clipping and restricted dynamics remains, then reevaluate and consider a more powerful multichannel amp or reconfiguring your power conditioner/power cord set up.
Good luck for now,
Dean |
Interesting results Lej1447! I have a few questions regarding the test you conducted.
You said after setting the 8.3s to small you adjusted the crossover higher on BOTH the Denon and Polk PSW350.
When setting your speakers to small and allowing the Denon to perform all the bass management, you should BYPASS the crossover in your powered sub by going "direct in" otherwise you'll have a phenomena known as "cascading filters", which is two crossovers one after the other performing the same task near the same crossover point. This should be avoided because it can hamper the performance of the subwoofer and cause strange dips or humps near that area.
One way to avoid this is to either use the "direct in" jack on the powered sub which in most cases completely bypasses its low pass filter, thus allowing the Denon to handle all the bass management with only one low pass filter in the mix. I noticed that the PSW350 has three inputs. Speaker level, LFE and line level. In your case you should be using LFE because your intended use is for movies. I don't know however if this input bypasses Polk's crossover.
If the LFE input doesn't bypass the subs crossover, then crank it as high as it will go so the Denon's and Polk's filters aren't close enough to affect each other. An example would be setting the Denon's crossover to 80Hz and turning the Polk's all the way up to its 160Hz max setting. You'll still have cascading filters, but this configuration wouldn't be as bad as if they were near the same crossover point. When I was using the NHT SA-3 amp/crossover which is intended for use with my NHT SW3P passive subwoofer, this is exactly what I did since the SA-3 doesn't have a direct in jack. Now that I'm using a Bryston 4B instead of the SA-3, I go directly from the amp to the sub without any filters in the path.
Also, you said you turned the crossover on your Denon up. To what frequency setting? If I had your system I would experiment with LFE settings on your Denon starting in the 80Hz range [if adjustable], this will aleviate much of the bass duty your ARs are enduring while retaining the qualities you like. I don't know if it's the same for your unit, but I see that the AVR-2803 has switchable low pass settings of 40, 60, 80, 100, and 120Hz. If you had set your Denon to 120Hz when you did your test, this could explain why Ian McKellan sounded like a little girl. No, not the OTHER reason, heheh! And, if your Denon was set to this while the Polk had a slightly lower setting these two things in combination could cause a "hole" or "suck out" at that frequency, thus the lack of warmth which is usually attributed to an upper bass hump. Also, try the 60Hz setting and see how that works.
Check all these issues pertaining to your LFE settings, because something as simple as this could be at the root of your dilemna.
In the end, it may just be your Denon. After all, its 90wpc rating is probably a bit optimistic and not an indication of its actual ability to supply dynamic power and high current on demanding movie tracks. It's like my old Integra GSR which had a high horsepower rating and could rev like a demon, but was dog at low RPMs because it had no low end torque at all.
Another thing that might complicate your situation as well is speaker AND subwoofer placement. If you haven't taken a lot of care in placement and set up, search on line for some guides for HT speaker placement. You'd be surprised how vital proper placement of all speakers and especially the subwoofer is to achieving a great movie experience. Yes, subwoofer placement is crucial and in my opinion the most difficult speaker to position.
Sean, quite frankly I'm stunned that you SAY you hadn't thought of the "small" setting for Lej1447's 8.3s. Over the years, I have enjoyed and learned immeasurably from your posts pertaining to 2 channel audiophilia. I'm very honored by you compliment!
Lej1447, if you think setting up a home theater is CONFUSING, don't ever take the step to 2 channel listening. I find this arena to be far more complex with endless upgrade paths and limitless permutations in search of musical bliss. But the rewards can be magic!
Keep at it! |
Hey Marty, I wish 2 channels was easier, hahah! I'm finding it to be way more expensive as well!
Sean, your discussions always seemed to center around 2 channel and I never considered you might have an HT system. What kind of gear are you running? Your main speakers with built -in 8s and 12s is exactly the example of speakers that I was searching for that should be set to large. I use little NHT SuperOnes and SuperZeros, so setting them to small is optimal, but I have experimented with setting them to large just for fun.
It's interesting that your center channel has two 8s and that your rears have 8s and 10s. I've read about many systems including magazine reviewer's own systems that employ subs to operate in tandem with all their speakers EXCEPT the center channel. And I'm not just talking about multiple LFE subs, but one integrated with each speaker via its own crossover network. I've read explanations on why the center channel is excluded from this, but never truly understood why. Your system seems to mirror this philosophy in a way except that the "subs" are built into each cabinet, except the center channel. I hope this is another area you can help enlighten me, hahah. |
Sean, I'm a little more yellow than green. I have a wedged head but not on one side, it's more in the front. I don't know any fellow named Pokey, but I do whiz around on one foot with the other one lifted behind me.
FOUR 2 channel systems??!!!! Wow. |
You ain't done Viggen!
As soon as you locate a cool, inexpensive, obscure piece of equipment that has a cleaver yet elegant design you'll fall off the wagon and order it directly from the guy that builds them with his own little hands.
It's only temporary! |
