I'm confused

Lej1447, just some food for thought..... maybe it's not the amp running out of steam, but possibly the wall? I use a Denon 3803 for my HT. It is rated at 105wpc. I am using said amp in conjunction with 89db efficient speakers in a room just slightly larger than your room configuration. Since that room only has 15 amp receptacles, I find that the amp is fully capable of drawing more power than the wall receptacle can provide.

Maybe a regenerative power conditioner may be in order? If you are trying to avoid more amplifiers (space limitations, heat, interconnects, etc.), could this possibly provide you with an alternative? Needless to say, all of your HT components will benefit from a stabilized power source. Power "draw down" or "sags" will become virtually nonexistent. You will find that your amp will sound like it's on steroids, not to mention the clocks in your DVD player and receiver will become much more stable.

You will probably not notice a major difference in SPL by going from 100 to 200 wpc. But, stabilize the AC power and you will notice that extremely dynamic passages will become much more effortless for the amp to reproduce. You would be surprised. That little Denon is probably capable of drawing as much as 1000-1200 watts from the wall at high volume level passages. Unless you stabilize those types of power draws, the amp will have a tendency to sound it's clipping when it is actually not. This also wreaks havoc on your digital section since the DA/AD clocks need a stable voltage supply.

Something like an Exactpower EP-15 or Accuphase will provide you with a very stable 120v/60 cycle power waveform, no matter what type of load you put it up against. Again, ALL of your HT components will benefit from this type of power conditioning, the unit will not occupy a lot of space, will generate virtually no heat, and would probably be extremely cost effective, condsidering your other options.

Also, if you decide to upgrade to other components at a later date, they will all benefit from stable, clean power.

Just a thought.

Sean, I agree. HT receivers of this magnitude will always confront you with compromise. Especially in terms of power supplies, which generally do not have the capability of high current flow and the ability to recharge the caps in the power supply adequately in real time.

I was trying to consider the users space limitation factors and also heat concerns being generated by additional amplifiers. My Denon (rated at 105 pc) would probably actually spec out at approx. 65-75 wpc before the THD curve goes through the roof.

An increase of output power from 100 to 200 watts would probably only increase SPLs by approx. 2 db. My point being, the concerns of the user are considering the aforementioned space and heat. Although adequate power supplies would provide a higher dynamic headroom capability, they would also require a higher level current of flow from the wall. It would be kind of a 2 steps forward, one step back scenario.

For instance, if the user were to obtain a quality 3 channel to use in conjunction with the existing Denon HT receiver, he would also need to provide more AC power from the wall. A quality amplifier will increase it's power output based on impedance load. 200 watts @ 8 ohms, 400 watts at 4 ohms, 800 watts @ 2 ohms x 3 channels. That amp, theoretically, would require 2400 watts from the wall.

I was suggesting, instead of introducing those types of power requirements, simply providing a stable, regulated AC power supply that would adjust to current demands, to the existing amplifier. We are both fully aware that the Monster power strip presently being used is acting to "choke" that poor little amp.

I have always firmly believed that problem rectification begins with problem identification. I would be interested in hearing what that system would do with a stable 120 volts @60 cycles without "sags". The user might be pleasantly surprised, and would still be staying within the confines of estblished limitations of room, heat, etc.

Lej1447, here is a simple experiment. Unplug the Denon receiver from the power strip, and plug it directly into the wall. See if you notice a difference in the capability of reproducing dynamic passages.

Let us know of your results.

Gentleman, let's put opinions aside and evaluate based on facts and raw numbers. Lej1447 is presently using a 15 amp non-dedicated circuit as a power source for a plasma tv, a 5x90 HT receiver, a 150 watt sub, and any other input sources. On it's best day, that receptacle is capable of providing 1600 watts of AC current. That is assuming he has a solid 120v/60cy waveform with no deviation.

In terms of wattage to SPL ratio, 1 watt is providing 89db of SPL. Let us use the gradient scale for increased SPL output. In order to increase SPL by 3db, we would need to double the power. So, 2 watts would provide 92db, 4 watts/95db, 8 watts/98db, 16 watts/101db, 32 watts/104db, 64 watts/107db and based on present calculations, 128 watts/110db.

I am sure that most of us realize how loud 107db of SPL is, in a 12'x13' room. Most gunshots in Dolby Digital or DTS format are mixed to provide 103db. So this would give a fair indication of how loud 107db actually is.

The output wattage of most amplifiers is rated at 120 volts. If the receptacle is only providing say, 117 volts, current in watts would drop to 1350 watts.

Now, a plasma tv can use as much as 500 watts of AC. A 150 watt sub, considering high dynamic passages, could demand up to 600 watts of power. The HT amplifier based on a 90 watt output per channel would use a minimum of 450 watts, and that is not even considering power loss for operation efficiency. Let us not even consider the source components being used.

We have just used 1550 watts of AC power.

Now we are recommending another 3 channel amplifier?

Treat me like I'm an idiot. Where is the AC power coming from, to operate this additional amplifier?

(I'll give you a clue), IT AIN'T THERE. Are we now worsening an existing problem by adding ANOTHER amplifier and not seeing the forest from the trees?

My opinion regarding power conditioning precludes AC filtration. That is not my primary concern. AC current capability, current limiting, and AC instability is my primary concern.

I think we are fixing the blame, not the problem. I have this funny feeling that if this little HT receiver had a STABLE AC power source, such as Marty suggests, a dedicated 20 amp receptacle or as I suggest a power regenerator/stabilizer, he might have a problem resolved. This is even considering a "mid fi" HT receiver with it's questionable power supplies.

A tree needs water to grow. An amplifier needs AC power to amplify. Let's not ignore the most basic of operating principals.

With all due respect, my opinion still stands. Provide the AC power required for this amplifier to operate PROPERLY, and the listening results may be quite different.

Marty, I guess my question would be, "How much receiver do you need for 107db in a 12'x13' room"?

Lej1447, Marty had mentioned an approach to providing sufficient AC to your equipment through the use of 20 amp dedicated circuits. For most large amplifier users, this is not an option, but a requirement. A dedicated outlet for your system would provide a substantial benefit. It would also benefit any future equipment you may intend on buying.

It is too often assumed that people are providing enough AC current to their equipment. In many cases, the AC being provided is totally inadequate. Also, people tend to establish opinions of certain equipment without ever really knowing if the AC power being provided is of any quality.

It is a very basic level of thinking. "Junk in/Junk out".
Think about it for a moment Lej1447, how can you really come to the accurate conclusion, that you need to replace your amplification, unless you positively know that the power you are providing to this unit is adequate. If it's not adequate, what do you think will happen when you install a LARGER amplifier.

Keep in mind, you are in a considerably small room. How much power do YOU feel you need to provide ear shattering video dynamics. Not a lot. There is no doubt in my mind that 60-70 watts with an 89db efficient speaker would provide that, plus some. But, the amp must be able to provide that power without having to struggle for input power. I will be the first to agree that you are not using the pinnacle of home theater receivers. Neither am I. I'm using the one model up from yours in a room with an almost identical configuration.

This system provides an ungodly amount of SPL with plenty of power to spare. This is what first raised my suspicions regarding your system.

Did you try plugging the amp directly into the wall yet?