KennyT,
Have you A/B 'd your system when the PurePower 700 is plugged into your dedicated line vs. a regular outlet? That would be a great experiment! |
I tend to agree with Mceljo. The PurePower AC regenerator takes any crap coming out of the wall, converts it to DC, which completely eliminates the grunge and then converts it again to CREATE brand new perfect sign wave 120V power which it stores in a bank of internal batteries and feeds the components this juice as needed.
The idea that the most important cable is from the wall to the power center was referring to a CONDITIONER, not a regenerator... totally different animal.
That said, I'm still very interested in hearing from anyone who has A/B'd this question with a regenerator. I'm not opposed to getting a dedicated line if there is something I'm missing here.
Stanwal, the tests PurePower has done on the juice coming out of the regenerator seems to suggest that it is actually "perfect" power... and considering the enormous difference it made in my system, it is believable.
Now as an aside, upgrading the power cord from the regenerator to my tube preamp made another enormous difference which I don't quite understand... anyone have any thoughts on why? |
Mceljo: That makes sense, my old cable must have been introducing some EMF grunge that did not come from the regenerator, but maybe picked up via air or proximity to other stock cables that are not shielded well.
Aside from shielding from EMF and EMI, I wonder if the upgraded cable's increased ability to transfer AC current also plays a factor? Either way, I'm upgrading all my power cords from the regenerator to components.
I have yet to be convinced that money spent on a dedicated AC line will pay off in sound quality. |
Hey Jdub39, you're killing me here... As an audiophile, I will do almost anything for better sound, and your reasoning is very much like my own... I want to believe, however, I'm trying to do what I always do, which is to "prove" to myself (and my wife, who lucky for me has very good ears) that what I'm spending money on is an audible improvement.
I can get dealers to let me audition cables with a money back guarantee... but have not found any electrician willing to let me audition his installment of a dedicated line in my home. Hence, the purpose of this posting.
Somewhere in A'gon-land there must be someone who has run a Blind A/B on this question. |
Hey Stanwal, I can't quite tell who you mean by YOU... you seem annoyed. Regardless, I just went to PS Audio's web site to read what you said they said, and found it to be unclear and not really in support of your post. And I quote, from their page on the AC12 top of line power cord:
"Use the AC12 in your most demanding audio situations. Between the wall or Power Plant Premier and your power amplifier, preamplifier, DAC or even the phono preamplifier."
Reading that sentence carefully, it says between the wall and your components, OR between the power regenerator and your components. They do NOT say between the wall and the power regenerator.
Whoever you're annoyed with, try to play nice. We're all just doing our hobby. |
OK ZMan and KennyT, I'm in. I thought adding a dedicated line would cost over $1000 nothing is really cheap in San Francisco! if it is indeed less than a good power cord, it's a good solution... then I can do a bunch of A/Bs and report back to anyone who is interested. Maybe I'll align with Stanwal... maybe Mceljo's logic will will prevail... either way it should be fun finding out.
Thanks to all of you for your thoughts. |
Ah, Stanwal Here we are again with the classic argument between reasonable logic and actual experience. We've probably all heard the famous audiophile mantra: "If it measures good and sounds bad, it's bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you're measuring the wrong thing."
I've also read (and I'm not sure I buy in to this theory) that human psychoacoustics can have us hearing what we expect to hear... kind of an aural placebo effect. I have sat in a room full of audiophile society members for a demo of Synergistic Research's Tibetan Prayer Bowl room treatment. Ted Denny was there and when he put a tiny metal bowl behind the couch in the back of the room, to me and most of the participants, it sounded better! Either we were all hypnotized, or it really works. My question is, does it matter? If I hang a rare and expensive dead muskrat from my ceiling and suddenly my system's previously sucked-out midrange blooms with life and it makes me smile, who cares if anyone else believes me!
I realize that this question will never be answered for me unless I do this myself... I am waiting for a quote from my electrician for a 20amp dedicated line with 10 gauge wire. I'll probably order a Maestro wall outlet to give this experiment the best chance of revealing the truth. As long as the cost is reasonable, I'm going for it. I'll chime in once I have it installed and report my impressions. I'll even A/B it against the dead muskrat (which has proven to have really low WAF). |
HifiHvn,
What were you referring to when you wrote that they misprinted the Pure Power owner's manual?
BTW, I bought my first audiophile gear at Hi Fi Haven, which was a high-end audio dealer in my college neighborhood in NJ. This was not a part of town you'd expect an audio store, on it's left was a strip club and on its right was Greasy Tony's Cheesesteaks, which was open all night and staffed with the shadiest motley crew imaginable. Ah, you gotta love college in NJ in 1980. Most of my friends frequented the two latter businesses, I think I was the only one who added HiFi Haven as a point of interest. |
OK, Gentlemen, here's something that should stir up some controversy: an actual A/B comparison!
Some background: it's after 3:30AM and in a few hours my electrician is coming to do some work at the house, including, if I want, dedicated 20A lines to my stack of gear.
Had an idea for an A/B test tonight that I wanted to check out before the dedicated lines were installed: would there be any audible difference between using a high quality power cord from the wall to the Purepower 1050 AC Regenerator, versus, wait for it... using NO CORD AT ALL?
Let me explain: unlike any other AC regenerator I know of, PurePower claims that when using it there is absolutely no connection between the unit (and therefore your components) and the power company supplied AC at the wall outlet.
The PurePower takes the wall power, converts it to DC (which strips away all the AC grunge) and then converts it to AC again (this time clean, steady and perfect power) and then stores this newly created power in a bank of super high current batteries which are completely isolated from the power company, that feed fast, perfect sine-wave 120V power to the components. This means that I can be listening to music at concert level volume and if the whole neighborhood has a black-out, my tubes will still glow and my music will continue playing at the same volume for 10 minutes running off the batteries!
Essentially, this means I can take the highest quality AC power cable I can get my hands on, connect it from the wall outlet to the Purepower, and A/B it versus using NO CORD AT ALL (when the cable is unplugged from the Purepower, making it use its batteries).
Please comment on my premise here if you find any holes in my logic
it seems to me that if the cable sounds in any way different from no cable at all, that means that a cable CAN influence the components connected to the regenerator, and therefore dedicated lines, high quality receptacles and super high-end power cords should make a big difference, right? And therefore, if THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE in sound between no cable and high-end cable, that means that expensive cable, dedicated lines, super high-grade outlets as well as anything else from the regenerator on back to the local power station might be a waste of money. If you're still with me, here's how I did the A/B:
Pulling my very heavy rack from the wall, I exposed the 40 year old original wall receptacle imbedded into the concrete floor. As far as I can tell, it has never been replaced. The circuit this outlet belongs to has a ghastly variety of power offenders on it
space heaters, dimmers, compact florescent lights, cordless phones, computers and wi-fi routers. This is the circuit I have the Purepower regenerator plugged in to.
My VAC tube preamp has been on all day, and I switched on my Ray Samuels Audio "Raptor" tube headphone amp (arguably one of the best in the world) and let it warm up with music, driving my AKG K702 headphones for over an hour. This is an incredibly resolving system as every change in volume, tone, soundstage, air, and distortion of any kind is immediately and irrefutably audible.
I put on my best recorded cd (Midnight Sugar on 3 Blind Mice Records, which I've been listening to for years and know very well) and sat down against the wall next to the power cord connecting the wall to the regenerator. The music was gorgeously rich, balanced and detailed
just as I know it to be played on this configuration. I listened for about 10 minutes, enjoying myself thoroughly
then, in the middle of the title track, I braced myself and yanked the power cord out of the socket. I prepared myself for a pop, a change in volume, a click as it switched to battery power, a change in tone, or the depth and definition in the lowest octaves
NOTHING. No pops, no shifts, no disruption, no audible change whatsoever, just a seamless, uninterrupted continuum of beautiful jazz. I was amazed, and continued sitting there yanking out and plugging in that cable at least ten more times to no avail. There was absolutely NO DIFFERENCE!
This proves to my satisfaction Purepower's claim that their unit completely separates my components from any power issue that lurks before my regenerator. Truth in advertising is always refreshing. Now I know why this regenerator, which replaced my AC conditioner, was one of my most satisfying and dramatic upgrades ever.
One interesting addendum: replacing the stock power cables from the regenerator to each component (one at a time) with high-end cords made an immediate and obvious improvement in sound quality! Interesting, huh?
As for the electrician tomorrow
I'm an audiophool at heart, so if the cost is not too bad, I'll probably have the dedicated lines installed anyway, along with the Maestro wall outlet I just received. Then, I'll do the same A/B comparison again, and if I get different results, I'll just go ahead and kill myself to avoid the embarrassment.
Any thoughts on my process or methodology are welcome, as are challenges, rants, and questions. Thanks for reading, you're obviously as crazy as I am. |
Inna, I will do that, probably tonight. Right now, the electrician is here and he gave me a quote to run two 20A dedicated lines from the main panel to my gear (about 40 ft. of conduit) with 10/3 wire for about $600! I mentioned on this thread earlier that San francisco prices for just about anything are about double that of other areas in the country.
I have about 3 hours before he needs a decision. Considering the results of my A/B comparison so far, I'm not sure the investment would pay off... $600 buys a lot of vinyl... |
I did what I said I would do, and finally, this one-man jury has reached a verdict.
Conclusion: In all the A/B tests and experimentation I've conducted since my original post, I have arrived at the answer that in my system, high-end power cables connected AFTER the AC regenerator (i.e. from the Purepower 1050 to the preamp, another to the amp and one to each of the source components made a significant and immediate improvement in midrange clarity, bass articulation, depth, and shear musical impact.
On the other hand, anything I installed in the chain BEFORE the AC regenerator (i.e high end power cable from the wall to the Purepower 1050, high-end wall receptacle, as well as a 20Amp dedicated line that cost me over $500 -- made absolutely no audible difference at all.
My expensive conclusion is that the PurePower 1050 is doing exactly what they claim it does no matter what crap comes out of the wall, be it dirty power from the grid, erratic voltage drops or spikes, whatever, it doesn't seem to matter -- the Purepower doesn't care -- it strips out the grunge from the AC by converting it, waxing it, polishing it, and generally having its way with it to create brand-new, virgin, perfectly shaped sine-wave, completely steady 120V AC with copious headroom reserves for instantaneous availability to all components. This unit has transformed my system in so many ways. Aside from the usual inner micro details that have emerged from the deep, music is much more dynamic, richer, with faster attack than I've ever heard.
No I'm not on their payroll, just a happy customer. This is the best $2500 I ever spent upgrading my system. See if you can borrow one somehow and hear for yourself. And please, don't lump this remarkable product in with power conditioners and filters, no matter how expensive. This is a different animal altogether. If you have any questions, please ask. Alonski out. |
Mceljo, Yeah, refreshing isn't it? What I appreciate about them is absence of hype, availability of technical white papers to back up their findings, and they let their customers do the rest with glowing testimonials from all over the world.
Snopro, I totally believe you, it just wasn't my experience in my system. Two things come to mind: First, it's possible that results are system dependent, especially with differences in amps. Second possibility is that in the years since your test, Purepower has improved the 1050 significantly.
Either way, I'm willing to forge ahead I ordered another high-end power cord to test, and the first place I'll plug it into is between the wall and the 1050 and repeat the many tests I did, again (luckily I enjoy this madness). I'll report back with an update. |
Oh, Inna, you're making fun of my madness... bring it on, I'm a proud audio nutcase! Thanks for all your input ;-)
I bow to you, Snopro... You were a very early adopter of this game-changing technology. Well done!
Mceljo, the exploration of possibilities is part of the fun for me... and yes, that can get to be expensive over time! |
Pani- Yes, the PurePower is different. The stored power available on demand in the massive batteries is probably the reason the dedicated lines, the Maestro outlet and the expensive power cord from the wall to the 1050 did not show any audible difference. IMO of course.
What I really like is that this regenerator allows high power amps to not only be connected to the unit along with source components, they actually end up performing so much better! I went back to the research I had done before my purchase and I remember this excerpt from their website helping me make my decision:
"The PurePower AC regeneration design provides something you might not expect from a power solution. Many power filtering and conditioning products are routinely accused of limiting the current flowing though them, thus starving the power amps with their need for lots of instantaneous current on demand. Testing shows how the PurePower actually has the capability to deliver more current that even a completely unfettered and unfiltered household outlet. In the Bryston equipment test measurements shown above, the 9B SST demanded AC to produce the required output to the speakers. The Amp drew 3.88 amps at its peak demand. When powered from the PurePower 1050, the amp was able to draw 5.6 amps at peak! That's almost a 50% increase! This is possible due to the nature of our AC regeneration technology. One of our primary goals is to be able to provide for maximum current variation on demand without allowing the sine wave or voltage level to be adversely affected. While you want voltage to be rock solid, noise to be at a minimum and the sine wave to be pristine, you also want to be able to have the most current possible available exactly when it is needed. The more instant current change you can provide without affecting any of the other power variables, the better your system can perform. "
|
Foster 9, Try inviting a friend over, putting on a very familiar track at an involving level, closing your eyes and having him/her quietly unplug the power cord from the wall and back in again a few times without telling you when and determine if you can hear any difference between the expensive PC cord and no cord at all.
If you hear a difference of any sort, it means that something from the 1050 on back (pc cable, dedicated line, outlet) is able to affect your system. If you weren't able to tell when your assistant unplugged or plugged back in, the 1050 is doing it's job. Have fun! |
Inna, Part of this obsession, to a different degree for each of us, is the reality of the never-ending upgrade. Technology will not stop its progress because I just bought an expensive component... So, I like to ask the dealer or company how long the current version has been around and when is the next model coming out? The key for me is knowing its inevitable and not getting too upset.
BTW, I just got my 1050 a few months ago. If there's a new version that replaces it already... heads will roll! No, wait... that negates everything i just said. Uh, never mind. |
Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread... It got somewhat tense at times, with some strong opinions bumping up against each other but overall, it was instrumental in exploring and answering the question I posed to my satisfaction.
Yes, it cost me a few hundred dollars to find out, but for audiophiles, that's just part of our expensive pastime, isn't it? I don't regret getting dedicated lines and high end outlets, and eventually, I will probably put a high end power cable between the wall and the 1050. Why? because I'm nuts, and an audiophile, and how could that ever hurt?
An audio friend whom I greatly respect swears that he hears a significant improvement when replacing a stock cable from his turntable motor with a $1000 power cord. I haven't tried it yet myself, but I said, in a somewhat snarky tone, "Now wait a minute, Buckeroo, the electrical path ends at the motor... the only thing connecting the motor to the turntable is a rubber belt, which as far as I know can't conduct a signal. How can it make a difference?!" "I don't know what to tell you," he said... "It just does."
Bottom line: In whatever way you can, from full out dedicated lines, to really expensive AC Regenerators, or even an upgraded power cord... clean up the juice coming into your system and you'll be amazed. I was unprepared for the difference clean power made in my system.
Sometimes, I sit in my sweet spot just shaking my head in disbelief (like last night, while listening to the amazing Sonny Rollins' Way Out West LP) thinking how lucky I am to have this great hobby.
Glad you guys are a few keystrokes away when I need a fix (so to speak). |
Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread... It got somewhat tense at times, with some strong opinions bumping up against each other but overall, it was instrumental in exploring and answering the question I posed to my satisfaction.
Yes, it cost me a few hundred dollars to find out, but for audiophiles, that's just part of our expensive pastime, isn't it? I don't regret getting dedicated lines and high end outlets, and eventually, I will probably put a high end power cable between the wall and the 1050. Why? because I'm nuts, and an audiophile, and how could that ever hurt?
An audio friend whom I greatly respect swears that he hears a significant improvement when replacing a stock cable from his turntable motor with a $1000 power cord. I haven't tried it yet myself, but I said, in a somewhat snarky tone, "Now wait a minute, Buckeroo, the electrical path ends at the motor... the only thing connecting the motor to the turntable is a rubber belt, which as far as I know can't conduct a signal. How can it make a difference?!" "I don't know what to tell you," he said... "It just does."
Bottom line: In whatever way you can, from full out dedicated lines, to really expensive AC Regenerators, or even an upgraded power cord... clean up the juice coming into your system and you'll be amazed. I was unprepared for the difference clean power made in my system.
Sometimes, I sit in my sweet spot just shaking my head in disbelief (like last night, while listening to the amazing Sonny Rollins' Way Out West LP) thinking how lucky I am to have this great hobby.
Glad you guys are a few keystrokes away when I need a fix (so to speak). |
Inna, I trust you had a nice holiday.
If you don't already know about it, Nottingham offers the Wave Mechanic optional power supply which regenerates the AC going to your deck's motor. It's a bit pricey but I've heard good things about this upgrade. |
