I Feel Overwhelmed....Please Help

If you go with vintage , I could help you with restoration and or to add some nice wooden case. I am done with my house renovation - that will give me extra time to finish some projects for my audiophile friends ( you too Chad - if you are still interested.) There is another option since you tasted some of the goodiess allready. But that would cost you about 4K including new speakers and components you never heard of. It would shamed the systems you heard today and put you up there with the big boys. One thing - your room dimentions - and can you pull the speakers at least 3feet from the walls????

One more suggestion. If you want to fool around with vintage tube gear, I would at least look into something like H.H.Scott from the 60's . My buddy has one and I loved its middle range, liquid, musical and very seductive sound. In fact, I liked it so much that I am getting one for myself. I will pick it up this Friday. I will have Bob Backert (my favorite tech.) look at it and see what can be done to make it even better. I bought it for $300 ( Scott 299B integrated) and small mod performed by B.Backert shouldn't cost more then $300-$500. I would guess that then it should compete with the best. I will post my impresions in my system when the time permits.

After today, I certainly am not ruling that option out. As I earlier stated, I have had two lengthy experiences listening to tube gear, and one of those was a Scott, which I loved. I thought the sound of the equipment I listened to today was far superior to what I now own, but there was no question to my ear that it was SS.

I just returned home from my jaunt into San Antonio to do my first day of shopping and listening. Unfortunately, I came home quite disappointed.

My first stop was an appointment at Galen Carol Audio. Mr Carol was very nice and professional, and obviously knew his business. I was disappointed however by the lack of components that I was most interested in, and that fell into my price range. He had no tube gear in stock, which was a major disappointment. He advised that the amps that I would audition would smoke the tube competition in their price range. My first listen was to:

Creek Classic 5350 SE int amp
Creek Destiny DCP
Splendor S8e speakers

Excellent soundstage and detail. I was very impressed, but he did not have the Creek Classic CDP, which is more into my price range, so I have no idea how much difference there would be. Mr Carol assured me that the difference was slight.

The only other audtion was:

SimAudio Moon I-3 int amp
SimAudio Moon CD-1 CDP
a pair of very expensive and very tall electrostatic speakers of which the brand name now escapes me

It was an awesome listening experience. It is the first stereo I have listened to that when I closed my eyes, I thought I was listening to a live performance. I would have sworn the female vocalist was singing 20 feet in front of me. Although the bass was accurate to the nth degree, it was not very deep, but the sound was so beautiful, I did not really miss it. Again, the problem was lack of the particular component in my price range, in this case, the SimAudio Moon I-1.

My next stop was to Bjorn's to hear the Rega and PS Audio gear. They also carry McIntosh, but I did not listen, as it would have only bummed me out even more since it is hopelessly out of my budget. What I did hear:

PS Audio A-100 power amp
PS Audio P-200 preamp
PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
Rega Saturn CDP
B&W 803S speakers

I was fairly impressed with the sound here also, but not quite as much so as with the earlier rigs. Again, it is the Rega Apollo that is in my price range, and they did not have it in stock. The deal offered: If I buy the PS Audio amp/preamp, the DAC would be thrown in free for a total of $2000. The Rega would have to be special ordered because they did not have one in silver to match the PS Audio components. Also, I was not impressed by the spartan appearance of the PS Audio pieces. They were small and plain. I want good sound, but I also want something that is at least a little sexy.

I so wanted to hear some tube amps/CDP's. You would think that in a city of 1.2 million people, there would be a shop with at least something in stock to hear. With this being the case, I am not sure what to do now. Only one other shop in San Antonio, Blue Marble Audio, carries high end audio with brands that I have not heard, but when I spoke with the salesman, he said they did not have any tube gear in stock either. Should I take a chance on purchasing something from online new or used but of excellent repute without listening first, but based on advice from you folks? I may have to make that decision, especially since I live so far out in the boondocks.

Chap_cat,
One more suggestion. If you want to fool around with vintage tube gear, I would at least look into something like H.H.Scott from the 60's . My buddy has one and I loved its middle range, liquid, musical and very seductive sound. In fact, I liked it so much that I am getting one for myself. I will pick it up this Friday. I will have Bob Backert (my favorite tech.) look at it and see what can be done to make it even better. I bought it for $300 ( Scott 299B integrated) and small mod performed by B.Backert shouldn't cost more then $300-$500. I would guess that then it should compete with the best. I will post my impresions in my system when the time permits.

Best
Mariusz

Understood Tvad, I call those Class-D or ICEpower. They're not "digital" at all, since there's no analog-to-digital or digital-to-analog conversion that takes place. The main chip set in my Rowland controls the remote control functions.

Dave

Tvat , have you listen to RWA???? If not you should give it a try. If you want to try it out let me know. I could loan you mine for a short time to try it in your rig. You seem like an honest guy, so.....I don't see any problems with that , if you want to give a shot. It will be my pleasure.

Cheers
Mariusz

P.S
IMO it is better then the ones from your list. But that is me.

Red Wine Audio is one of many. I called it T-amp but chip amp might be a more accurate name. Power is limited to digital chip that is the source of juice. I am not sure but 40wpc is the upper limit of that chip. Usualy it is a very simple design but it takes the know how to squeez the most out of this technology. Since RWA Sig. 30 or 30.2 is also battery powered , the filth that degrade and hunts our systems is greatly reduced. I am not trying to promote that approach but it did wonders in my NY home. NY is known as the audiophile's nightmare when it comes to power and problems that somethimes are imposible to overcome.

If you are or ever will be in NY area , you are more then welcome to visit, listen and have a couple cold ones.

Cheers
Mariusz

Tvad my friend, what's a "chip amp"?

Dave

06-18-08: Tvad said:

"06-18-08: Dcstep
Mariusz, I'm not playing a game. I payed just under $300 for a Holland GZ34 rectifier.

You paid too much...by double if not triple. I'd suggest seeking a different source for your tubes. You're getting reamed."

See, I told everyone that tube rolling wasn't an "advantage" to owning tube equipment.

Tvad, thanks for your concern, but I looked for several weeks for a metal-base Holland and saw several over $600. If I'd spent more weeks or been more "expert" I might have found a better price, but I didn't and I don't plan to buy many more tubes in my lifetime.

Dave

06-18-08: Mrjstark said:
"Dave, I am not saying that it is an advantage......but just another choice."

Yes, you and I totally agree. Somewhere earlier in the thread it was touted by someone else as an advantage.

Dave

"being able to tube roll is NOT an automatic advantage to owning tube equipment, UNLESS you enjoy doing that kind of thing"

I don't enjoy doing that kind of thing but I sincerely enjoy the music so much more. Maybe I got lucky but in my system it's been the greatest "bang for the buck" improvement I've heard - and please don't tell me the improvement is subjective.

Dave, I am not saying that it is an advantage......but just another choice. I own RWA which is a T-amp and it doesn't fit in neither camp , but it sounds wonderfull. It is the sound that I found appealing not the technology behind it. I have heard few very good SS designs but the ones that I like cost an arm and a leg.

There are many sources for NOS tubes. Prices verry from reasonable to outrageous and sick. So I can see how one could end up paying top dollar for good tubes.

I might just add that there are excellent designs out there and it does't matter which cape one is going to choose but the sonic qualities that suit that person best.

Listening is the key. Just use your own ears to do it.

Cheers
Mariusz

Mariusz, I'm not playing a game. I payed just under $300 for a Holland GZ34 rectifier. I've seen 300Bs for many times more and I've seen GZ34s as high as $700+. If you've got an intergrated amp with several tubes and you're going for the best sound possible, as I assumed, then $1500 is not much.

I spent over $9000 for my SS, integrated, including the phono-stage. Without looking back at my example, I think it only came to $5000, so I wasn't implying that $1500 was a ton of money. (I spent that on 3 ICs this week!!). You seem shocked that someone would spend that kind of money, but I thought that I was offering a real world example.

Let me give another example. I bought the Woo Audio WA6 for around $600 new. The NOS rectifier was $250 and if I replaced the power tubes with comparable, highest quality tubes, I'd spend another $200. That doesn't quite double the investment, but it gets it close.

My point is, once again, being able to tube roll is NOT an automatic advantage to owning tube equipment, UNLESS you enjoy doing that kind of thing. I think there are at least as many equipment owners that would rather not have to do such things to maximize the performance of their rigs.

Dave

Dave, if you want to play that game fine.
Tell me what tubes and which preamp did you have in mind.
I have had quite a few preamps and I never spend more then $400 on NOS tubes. And that was the most that I have ever spend on tubes for the single unit (in fact those are my Cyber mono blocks ). For exemple my present preamp is using 2 , 6922 or 7308 tubes. It is design to double the live of tubes as well so it not that bad. Two of the best tubes of that kind are (IMO) Amperex 7308 PQ white label and 6922 orange lable (nice tube for the money) and Mullards work nice with that design as well. I bought 6 pairs (one pair of each) for the total of $200. Since my preamp runs on batteries , no need for expensive cords which can cost from $100 to $1000 and more. In my opinion that is a good deal. On top of everything ,I can swap the tubes to complement the music of choice. Then again , that is me.......your preferences are different and I respect that as long as it is your opinion and not the formula for success as you claim.

Regards
Mariusz

Yeah, a little levity never hurts. ;-)

I've found over the years that many people do, indeed get "bullied" by their perceptions of others. (It's actually a marketing strategy of certain audio dealers, as we know). They come to places like A'gon as newbies and tend to see us contributors as somewhat "expert", perhaps more so than deserved. We can't save everyone from the "wolves" (potential bad dealers, potential bad A'goners, etc.) but sometimes we can help them navigate by building up their trust in their own capacities.

Dave

"take your time and don't get pressured into ANYTHING including being belittled into thinking you MUST get tubes to qualify as an audiophile."

"Belittled"?
LOL! Dave, you are one far out cat.

06-18-08: Mrjstark said:
"Dave in all due respect, where did you come up with $1500 NOS tube replacement. If that is what you paid.........It just might explain your anti_tube parade. I personaly wouldn't down anyone for their choices and preferences. We all know what we like and it might not be necessary what the next guy prefers but the most important fact is that it sounds good to you."

That's a set of tubes, not just one.

Dave

Wow, interesting attack Macrojack, you know attack my friends just because I don't think that tube rolling is an automatic advantage of owning tube gear and I point out that many prefer to buy a well designed system and just enjoy the music.

Nowhere do I attack tube rolling and its proponents.

As for Jeff Rowland, what does it matter where he started??? I see a snear in your words that would belittle a proud, honest man that once made a living doing mods and is now a highly respected designer with a world wide following. Are you jealous, or what? Attacking my friends is like a personal attack and probably doesn't fit within A'gon rules, IMHO.

Rod Tomson is surely a friend. I was a musician and audiophile for decades before I met Rod. We hit it off for many reasons, not the least of which is our compatable views of music (he's a musician also) and what two-channel audio can do.

You presuppose that I'm anti-tubes when you say if I tried them then I'd be a loud proponent. That is far from the truth. My first integrated amplifier was a used Scott 20 watter that I bought when I was 18. one of my favorite jazz guitar amps is an Alessandro Italian Greyhound, with all the bells and whistles. My headphone amp is a single-end, Class-A, Woo Audio WA6 with a Holland GZ34 rectifier tube. (Not provided by Jack Wu, but recommended by him, so yes I do "roll", but that doesn't mean that I think it's an "advantage"0. Until recently my phono pre-amp was a nice little tube unit. So you see, I'm not anti-tubes, yet despite my use of tubes I'm not singing their praises as the only viable option.

So back to my advice for the OP, listen and follow your ears, take your time and don't get pressured into ANYTHING including being belittled into thinking you MUST get tubes to qualify as an audiophile. Tubes are one of two or three possible amplifier camps. Trust your ears. Oh, don't be afraid of tubes if that's where your ears take you.

Dave

I wouldn't have posted if TVAD's post as there when I started. Slow typist.

Dave in all due respect, where did you come up with $1500 NOS tube replacement. If that is what you paid.........It just might explain your anti_tube parade. I personaly wouldn't down anyone for their choices and preferences. We all know what we like and it might not be necessary what the next guy prefers but the most important fact is that it sounds good to you.

"I think that's fine for those people that enjoy that, but I'm in the very substantial camp that would rather pay a designer to do his best work and buy accordingly."

Changing tubes no more invalidates a "designers best work" than swapping power cords. Many designers, especially the more prolific ones, will tell you there are many considerations when they select a tube, they don't choose exclusively based on best sound. In fact, I just had this conversation with a designer who was very enthusiastic about a tube that he thought sounded incredible in his amp but was too rare. We talked for some time about the choices he made, even in circuits, and not everything he decided was his personal choice for his listening preferences and system. He frequently made decisions calculated to broaden the products appeal.

Blindjim said:

"No matter how you shake it, tube gear offers additional advantages over solid state merely by their nature. Don’t confuse that with performance though. That’s a whole other realm."

So tubes have some mystical advantage over SS, but it's not performance??? Please tell us what "realm" these so called advantages lie in.

I sometimes enjoy turning the lights off and watching the tubes glow on my great little Woo Audio WA6 headphone amp. Is that of what you speak???

Dave

Blindjim, I didn't say that you're "half baked" I was speaking of tube rolling audiophiles, in general, not being anywhere near as qualified as the designers of their equipment to make decisions about the best tubes for the equipment. In hobbiests vs. professional designers, the designers win most of the time.

If a designer wants to put a pre-amp, for instance, and then says to his customers something like, "If you want even better sound, then I recommend that you spend another $1500 on these tubes and it'll be an easy upgrade that you can do yourself" then I think that's useful. OTOH, the hobbiest that buys an $15000 Conrad Johnson and immediately says to himself, "I bet that I can make it better by swapping the tubes out for some NOS" is fooling himself.

My main point is, tube rolling is NOT an advantage to tube equipment UNLESS the owner just likes to tube roll. Anyone that enjoys tube rolling should obviously seek out tube equipment. However, IMHO, equipment designers are generally in the best position to decide which parts will sound the best in their equipment. Lots of us would rather buy from a designer that's put together his best effort and stick with that.

Dave

Dcstep says:

I'm assuming that you're a hobbiest. If so, then anything that you do will be half baked vs. a designer that's spent his whole career designing the best circuits that he knows how to make.

I say:

Jeff Rowland is still a hobbyist and nothing he does is half-baked. He's a designer who has obviously won your heart.
But when I first met him he was a doing Hafler mods. Most of our "designers" were just guys who liked to experiment. Very few have a lengthy academic resume.

Dcstep says:

Once again I'll say, some people like to play around and experiment with tubes to see if they prefer different tubes over what the designer chose. I think that's fine for those people that enjoy that, but I'm in the very substantial camp that would rather pay a designer to do his best work and buy accordingly.

My response:

Many different tubes might be a realistic option in a given tube design. The manufacturer normally supplies tubes with his product. What he supplies may or may not be optimum. And it may or may not be the customer's preference. No designer, however, can or will supply all options. That's up to the owner. Additionally, NOS tubes, by definition, are found, not merely sourced like a currently available, currently produced item. There are specialists who deal in NOS tubes but they too must find them. They can't just email the factory and have a new batch sent over.
Consequently, manufacturers don't generally have the tubes on hand to make all options available. Some, like VAC and Music Reference, have stock available but they too may have gaps while they strive to locate the next pool.

When you buy a new car it has tires on it. They are the ones that were chosen by the designer. Are they the only tires you will ever use? Or will you try some half-baked option from Michelin or Pirelli or Bridgestone instead of the factory supplied, designer specified originals?

My guess is that, once you graduate from the Rod Tompson School, and get into tube world yourself, you will be among it's loudest proponents. Until that happens, you should stick to what you know.

Well, Dave ol’ buddy, it’s your choice of words mostly, and the notion user/owners don’t have the acumen to make positive changes to a certain topology which gets me.

I think what irks me here is how critical, undermining and simply misused, the term “half baked”, truly remains in your context…. As a pertinent definition for it is as follows….

“lacking mature judgment or experience; unrealistic.”

I neither lack experience, nor do I possess unsound judgement. I doubt those who do employ the use of tubes other than those offered by the makers find themselves at a loss there either. Perhaps we should ask them, huh? Or better still do it as you did here, just tell them they are all severely lacking mature judgment or experience; and they are unrealistic. Yep. That’ll go over quite well indeed.

Supplanting one tube for another, whose values are the same is not poor judgment. It is nothing more or less than using caps or resistors of varying labels, given their values are alike.

Going down that road a bit further, one should also say the OEM power cord shouldn't be changed, or one cable is as good as another... and why don't we just ask which speakers the desitgner used and buy them! the designer does know best. Right? How absurd.

Transistors, MOSFETS, chipsets, etc…. haven’t always been around? Designers even make changes there too! Well the cat's out of the bag now for sure.

I’m near certain that Dave has been granted the province of ‘speaker’ for the whole of the community too… or was it the overwhelming majority? It’s narrow minded to cast about suggestions such as the ones pertaining to changes of a designers efforts by end users as negative or unsubstantiated, and then follow them up by quoting some aftermarket modders (eg., Schultz)changes to the aforementioned designers effort, as vastly superior to the original product! Yed I’m sure I heard that somewhere … and recently too.

So which is it? Mod or not? It’s pretty obvious Dave hasn’t done much by way of tube rolling/experimenting.

Overwhelming majority my eye! If anything here is half baked, it’s that singularly offered sentiment Dave issued previously on tube rolling. It’s about as hard as changing out a light bulb… with about as many consequences.
Not once when auditioning a tube component have I said to myself, “Well, I’ll just change out the tubes ‘cause this sucks!” if it doesn’t sound good to begin with, or what I’m after I just pass on it. In fact I don’t eye the prospect of swapping out fresh, brand new tubes at all. Eventually though, like light bulbs, tubes lose their initial luster and down the way, do go out. I could too become desirous of a change and not have the entry fee to buy a whole new component. Then and there is a great opportunity for investigating other avenues. others do in fact take out the OEM tubes immediately! Supplanting their own preffered tubes instead!

No matter how you shake it, tube gear offers additional advantages over solid state merely by their nature. Don’t confuse that with performance though. That’s a whole other realm.

Chap_cat
If G. Carroll says you can preview a thing in your home, then that’s the ticket. I’d say he wants your business if so… and if there is no strings (restocking, depreciation, fees, etc.) aside from the norm… take advantage of it.

One last note on CDPs I’ll offer is the Cambridge 840c… One after market upgrader (modder) I spoke with of note, and directed me onto the Oppo, said this was a stunning CD player for the $$$... as he gave me those two for optional upgrades. BTW he wasn’t selling either one then.

It usually takes a good piece to make Robert Harley gush over it and he did with the 840c… the TAS reviews now online. Do read it.

I too thought well about the Jolita 1501 as a secondary unit some time ago. Did some looking around… asked some people I trusted but ultimately passed on it for a new HT system instead. In the doing however, I found others which for the price of a new jolita offered better build and Sonics... on paper. I’m sure it’s a solid choice though. I understand their support is good too.

This is the last thing I’ll add… call whomever you wish to buy’s product support team and see what’s up there before you lay out the long green. Nothing’s perfect, and things do happen. Knowing is far better than supposing with regard to support. That’s a biggie for me. Support. If G. Carrolls place will do whatever work is needed down the road for you, that’s all the better. IMO

this thing is all about what you like. Not necesarily what another likes. Tjhere's tons of paths to follow. Loads of gizmos to try out. numerous additive tweaks you can either make or buy.... and the bottom line always for me is like the optometrist says, "is this worse, the same, or is it better now?".. he'll never answer that one for you.

HAVE A GOOD TIME! Do let us know what you picked out too!

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I took any offense. There certainly wasn't any taken.

Chap cat, Dave,
If my post came off as condescending or pedantic I apologize; that couldn't be further from my intention. I was trying to offer the benefit of my mixed experiences with dealers. Chap cat, I'm happy you're more on top of things than I once was and am looking forward to hearing about your successes.

I suggest checking out all possible resouces and don't make a decision without sleeping on it.

More good advice. I now have the $3500 ready budget, but I have no intentions of spending the money tomorrow. There is just too many choices to go off half cocked.

The unenlightened should never walk into a dealership IMO. Too many of the salespeople one encounters are little better than snake oil salesmen, and even if they seem to be helping you initially, they might be setting you up for a future hit. I know this is harsh and to those salesmen who are on the square - I'm sorry, but you, more than most, know it's true.

My advise would be to look into an Audio Society or club in your area. Find a local mentor, or even one here on Audiogon; you'll find some really generous people here.
Read a lot of forums and you'll get a feel for the members. There are people on Agon who I've never met that I hold in very high regard; some of them can be a little terse at times but there good intentions will be revealed if your persistent. LOL. Good luck.

I appreciate the advice, and it is why I am here. Since I posted the OP, in addition to receiving advice here and on other forums, I have subscribed to the Audiogon blue book, read seemingly countless posts and reviews, researched at least 30 manufacturers product lines, checked out the virtual systems, and read up on technical details, all to help me become more enlightened. Even so, I am not so naive to think that I have as many of the answers as I know I should have at this point. That is why I am always happy to receive you folks advice, even if it sometimes appears a little hard. On 6/18, I am spending most of the day in various San Antonio audio shops. I will trust my ears to tell me what I need to know more so than any salesperson. I am somewhat of a skeptic by nature.

The guy's been through a divorce and has surely been around the block a time or two. I suspect that he can smell a bad dealer. Audio societies are also good, but you'll run into no-it-alls there and it can be hard to find any "real truth."

I suggest checking out all possible resouces and don't make a decision without sleeping on it.

Dave

The unenlightened should never walk into a dealership IMO. Too many of the salespeople one encounters are little better than snake oil salesmen, and even if they seem to be helping you initially, they might be setting you up for a future hit. I know this is harsh and to those salesmen who are on the square - I'm sorry, but you, more than most, know it's true.

My advise would be to look into an Audio Society or club in your area. Find a local mentor, or even one here on Audiogon; you'll find some really generous people here.
Read a lot of forums and you'll get a feel for the members. There are people on Agon who I've never met that I hold in very high regard; some of them can be a little terse at times but there good intentions will be revealed if your persistent. LOL. Good luck.

OMG, I hate stories where the wife gets the analog in a divorce. Does she at least listen to it or was that pure spite???

As much as I hated losing my vinyl and tapes and other stuff too, it was either that or she was going to go after my pickup truck. She hated almost all my music collection, and only wanted to have my vinyl to get what she could for it. All in all, I came out smelling like a rose. She got my old Harman Kardon HK-495i receiver, HK TD-262 cassete deck, old JVC turntable, and Sony CD changer. The receiver and the cd changer had problems she was not aware of, so I got to at least stick it back to her a little. :)

Chap_cat, sorry for posting so late but after reading most of the posts and suggestions I would also agree with those that adviced to take your time, audition as many amps, preamps, cdp as possible. I do understand that some might have a problem finding and auditioning the recommendations from fellow members or reviews from the press but at least try, read some reviews for general guaidence. Finding local audiophile club is always a good idea. Usualy those guys are very passionate and helpful and don't mind to share their wisdom or point you in the right direction.

$3000 is a lot of money and I would hate to see you spend it in the rush and regret your choices later.
LIsten to all but do what your hart and your ears tell you.

Many great products out there. Some are also giant killers that represent not only great value but are on par with or better the componets costing much, much more.

Good luck

Mariusz

OMG, I hate stories where the wife gets the analog in a divorce. Does she at least listen to it or was that pure spite???

Oh man, I feel your pain.

BTW, I've never dealt with Galen, but I've heard nothing but positives when I lived in DFW.

Dave

Blindjim said: I'd like to know if your plans for getting into better audio gear are the beginings of a possibly lengthy system building event, or a one and done upgrade.

Right now, what I have to play back in my collection are CD's and digital files. My wife got my substantial vinyl collection in my recent divorce, so I don't have to worry about a turntable anymore, and I no longer own anything on any tape format (she got all that too). In the future, I intend to purchase CD's and SACD's to add to my collection. I listen to various styles and genres of rock music, jazz, new age, world and some classical.

That said, my immediate goal is to upgrade my amplifier and my CDP. My long term goal is to upgrade my speakers, but I am quite satisfied with my Klipsch KG-5.5 for now. As stated earlier, I believe most any entry level audiophile components should sound considerably superior to what I have now, whether SS or HS, with my current speakers. However, I think it would be wise to purchase an amplifier that could handle tougher to drive speakers as insurance to help meet that long term goal. At my budget level, in the foreseeable future I doubt I will be able to acquire any components in the mid to high end audiophile range, so components of $2000 or less are my target. I am thinking about bumping my current budget for the two new components up to $3500, but that figure must include cables/interconnects, and a new stand. I don't want to go first class on the cabling right now, and I have picked out a nice Bush tower for $358 to diplay my new system.

Tomorrow, I have an appointment at Galen Carol Audio in San Antonio. This dealer carries a wide variety of audiophile gear. I should be able to audition amps and CDP's by Jolida, Shanling, Cayin, Antique Sound Lab, Creek, SimAudio among others. Here is a link to his line list:

http://www.gcaudio.com/products/lineList.html

Unfortunately, the amp that I have been most curious about is the Jolida JD1501RC, and it is not in stock, but he has one coming within the next two weeks. When I spoke with Mr Carol yesterday, he said I could audition the amp at home. I may wait till then to purchase, because the hybrid just seems to be fit the best of both worlds.

I am not a tinkerer, so tube rolling or other modding is not something I am all fired up about. If I could find a SS int amp with pleasing sound, I actually would prefer going that route. It is just that the hollow state amps I have heard in the past were so pleasing to my ear. Tomorrow's listening should go a long way in helping me decide which way to go.

Blindjim said:

"unless the thought is to replace this new/now CDP later on. if that's the case, the OPpo 980H is a slam dunk, multi format player that yields great results in audio and can stick around as just a video player when the itch to move up strikes again. it can even be run as a preamp! Cutting costs even more so, initially anyways"

BTW, I'm not picking on you buddy, you're just deep in this thread. ;-)

I own an Oppo 981HD, two in fact, and they are incredible values for the money, but they're not up to the standard of even the Pioneer DV-58AV which is less than double the price. If you have Ric Schultz mod the Pioneer to his top level, then it's all-in about $1500 and you have a universal that competes with most players under 5-grand, IMHO. Also, he's doing a 32-bit mod which really moves the Oppo up the food chain.

It's funny, if you spend $200 on the Oppo and $400 on an Analysis Plus IC, then you DO in fact have a very nice front end, but the Pioneer is an order of excellence better.

Dave

Blindjim said:

"There is nothing half baked about tailoring or tweaking a system to the tastes of it’s owner/builder. My experience has shown swapping out the OEM tubes is one way to go about it and the results from the doing of it have always been improvement, in varying degrees, and occasionally, entirely."

I'm assuming that you're a hobbiest. If so, then anything that you do will be half baked vs. a designer that's spent his whole career designing the best circuits that he knows how to make.

Once again I'll say, some people like to play around and experiment with tubes to see if they prefer different tubes over what the designer chose. I think that's fine for those people that enjoy that, but I'm in the very substantial camp that would rather pay a designer to do his best work and buy accordingly.

I'm not dissing your choice, I'm merely saying that one is no more valid than the other.

Dave

Blindjim said:
"Dcstep said:

'I don't see that variable sound and the opportunity to tube-roll is an advantage.'

...The ability to interchange tubes, if one wishes to do so, is also an additional feature set, and thus, an advantage."

No, more choices (in tubes) is NOT an automatic advantage. For those that like to take chances and play around with tube rolling, yes it is, but for the other half of us we'd rather buy a well thought out design that represents the designer's best efforts and run with it.

Dave

Hello Chap_cat

I didn't want to say second hand what a component was like previously, but a friend of mine was quite happy with his Jolita CDP but only after some NOS tubes were installed. He now has a Muse CDP, though.

I'd like to know if your plans for getting into better audio gear are the beginings of a possibly lengthy system building event, or a one and done upgrade.

Other's and myself have alluded to the acquisition of an integrated amp as a erstwhile and promising step up from your now system. In fact every noted approach here is a 'better than' option than what you presently have on hand, and are close to your desired sonics goal.

If this is the begining of some lengthy endeavor, or a one and done affair, or your choice is to go with hollow state power, some research on your part is necessary. Some honest soul searching too will help.

If it's the former, start at one end and go to the other. If it's the latter, tote your transducers along and pick out what pleases you and them! With your budget in mind, naturally. To heck with anyone else's thoughts.

My last note on who's helping who, here is simple, if a person has absolutely nothing to gain by sharing their time and experiences with you, and they aren't telling you of someone they know who has the so called 'right thing' for sale just now, it's most likely their statements are altruistic on the whole.

The 'wolves' Dave mentioned are those who have another agenda on hand when they are espousing their own recommendations. Some even go so far as to contact posters off thread and offer so called super deals! I'm quite leary of this approach as it is then tainted, regardless how well meaning a person might have been at the onset. IMO.

Threads are for gathering info, thoughts, ideas, and resolutions other's have accomplished during similar trials. It’s not a 'want ad', per se.

RE Underwood claims
…or anyone else’s calims for that matter as was already pointed out, are merely claims. Subjective notes to promote sales. I’ll not go so far as to say these claims aren’t valid whatsoever. The truth of the matter however is determined by yourself. Their validity is aided by their reputation. I’ve met and talked to a bunch of folks who are very, very, happy with modified units done by these aftermarket resources.

…. And I don’t begrudge them making money from it. It does seem to affect the value of the piece though. Sometimes for good. Sometimes for ill…. And I am considering having one of my pieces modded later on… maybe.

Ever how ya wind up doing this, it seems to me that without a fine source component providing a good signal up front, one won't be able to make up for lack of it later on in the chain downstream.... unless the thought is to replace this new/now CDP later on. if that's the case, the OPpo 980H is a slam dunk, multi format player that yields great results in audio and can stick around as just a video player when the itch to move up strikes again. it can even be run as a preamp! Cutting costs even more so, initially anyways.

Again... I'd go slow… but that’s just me. I hate to waste money as I haven’t got much to begin with.

Key word is "claims".

Dcstep is right -- you look pretty helpless. Go to a dealer.

One alternative that has captured my interest is purchasing a Jolida JD501B tube int amp, or the Jolida JD1501RC hybrid int amp, plus perhaps a Music Hall CD25.2 CDP from Underwood with level one mods. Underwood claims that these components with the mods sound as good as components costing two to three times as much. Is there truth to these claims? If so, that would seem to me to be great bang for the buck.

Chap_cat

I'd add the new Bel Canto digital int with USB DAC to the short list only as an option to the Nu Force entry. I've not heard either BTW... just thought to mention it.

Also Macrojack is offering up solid advice here on that Oppo player. I bought one just as he did, for a video BTW, stop gap, source. I was and still am, amazed at how much improvement has happend in digital gear... and for the $175 tag? It's a no brainer indeed.

it's in my estimation, 75-80% the performance level of my $3K (MSRP) SONY XA777es CDP.

His other points I'd feel are as valid.

Being in sales, I'm pretty sure if your guard is up some, not a lot, you'll feret out the legit from the self serving.

Dcstep said:

“I don't see that variable sound and the opportunity to tube-roll is an advantage.”

I’m pretty sure if additional flexibility is to be had, it must be seen as advantageous. EX. More imputs, both RCA + XLR in’s & outs, remote control, all these features and/or benefits are additive aspects. The ability to interchange tubes, if one wishes to do so, is also an additional feature set, and thus, an advantage.

Dcstep also said:

I personally prefer to buy a designer's best possible work and enjoy it, rather than risk screwing it up with some half-baked scheme to "improve it" with some 60 year old tubes.

Half baked? Screwing it up?

In this instance, the “best” available design isn’t likely to be had for the budget in place. Designers do offer their work in various levels you know?

I suppose one can adhere strickly to a purist notion on all things and be quite happy. However to discount the possibility of improvement upon a given designers effort through aftermarket or optionally offered changes, is shortsighted indeed.

There are plenty of designers which offer upgrades to their equipment as standard operating procedure. BAT, Dodd, AR, Atmosphere, ART, Prima luna, and VAC, just to name a few afford a buyer their wares in varying performance and configuration levels…. And some of these upgrades involve only the change of the tubes being used.

These designers I believe also need to produce a design which can be supplied and supported by currently available parts, including the tubes they employ in their designs. I wonder how many of them, had they an endless supply of NOS tubes, wouldn’t use them in their builds or offer them as options at point of sale?

There is nothing half baked about tailoring or tweaking a system to the tastes of it’s owner/builder. My experience has shown swapping out the OEM tubes is one way to go about it and the results from the doing of it have always been improvement, in varying degrees, and occasionally, entirely.

After all, just how many of these 2008 offerings are 100% new, never been done before designs? They are just variations on much older themes…. Themes which at their time used what we call now, NOS tubes.