How to select a good Speaker Cable

For All

If you are into the path of implementing my advice, and getting into a DIY project, than please read this:

1. Use care when working with cutting tools and soldering.
2. make sure you turn your system off (not standby!) when you replace cables.
3. After you do an extensive listening to your music, with the new cable, please come back and share your impressions.  
4. When you kindly do so, please provide the following info.:

What # awg and length was your previous cable,
What is the  # awg and length of your new cable,
What is the DF of your Amp.
How much did the DIY project costs?

Thanks you all, in advance.

Mr. madcow

NO,
The load is insignificant in this calculation.

It is usually a given of the Amp of your choice.
There are two ways to go:

Low DF as common with Tube amps, tube like (with output transformers), like mcIntosh etc. Those have a different sound signature.

High DF, common to SS high power amps, and they can go anywhere from 150 and up.
PASS LABS is at 150
Emotiva is at 400
Luxman is at 700
Class D tend to go really high with DF to over 4000!

When you try to understand DF with a power Amp, try to look at a car's engine:
While the Amps' power is the HP of the engine, the
DF equivalent is the torque. 

DF is of how much of control the Amp has over the speakers. 
So in this perspective, the higher the better. I do not think that the spec. of digital amplifications of 4000 is actual. I did't dig in, but the figure is just too good to be right.
DF can be achieved by a meticulous design of the output power stage,
Or with a feedback.
If it's feedback, it's not as good.
In the past, I used some Rotel amp with high DF (feedback) and is sounded bad.

Mr. kiwipeter

For 3 m and DF = 320, a #1 awg is recommended (you can go also with #0 awg).

Hi Mr. keppertup

I remember you well. One of the guys who implemented my cable advice and was happy with the results:

"Pass Lab 250.5 with Magnepan III's.

I replaced DIY 5 foot 16 AWG silver ladder line.  Have previously used a variety of commercial Helix design, solid flat wire and braided multi-stranded wires insulated and in multiple sleeves. All 12 AWG, 5 to 8 foot length.  Costs ranged from $400 to $2,000.

Dear b4icu57,

I purchased 25 feet of 0 AWG form a supplier on eBay for $45 ($12 shipping) and four brass (supposedly gold plated) battery connectors ($7.49).

I constructed four five foot cables in just over one hour.  Battery connectors were converted to spades with a cold chisel and wire cutters, cable was cut with a hacksaw and insulation stripped with the hacksaw.  Spades were connected to Pass Labs 250.5 terminals (PL does not supply banana plug receptacles).  I attached banana plugs to a two inch piece of silver plated 8 AWG wire.  I hollowed out a holle in 0 AWG wire with a punch and did not remove insulation.  I then inserted the stripped 8 AWG wire in hole and secured the assembly with a hose clamp around the insulation at the cable’s end.

The cables were attached to my thirty year old modified MG IIIa’s.  

The results are stunning.  The amount of undistorted energy filling the room, is jaw dropping.  I keep turning up the volume to levels that previously irritated my ears, and experience no irritation.  In the modified lyrics of B.B. King, “The shrill is gone.”  My wife is hearing new detail in cuts she has listened to many times before.

In my case, b4icu57, you were absolutely correct, thank you (except for the part of you doubting ribbon speakers would be improved with installation of your design).  I can’t wait to try the cables in one of my other systems that employs cone speakers.

I am sure every case is different.  Nevertheless, I encourage other hobbyist to test your theories.

Thank you for your generosity and patience.
All good wishes."

Well, Class-D, tend to have a Spec. of high to very high DF (Dumping Factor). It is in the thousands...

As DF is a representation of Ro (output Resistance) and equals to 8/Ro, a DF of 4000 (common to D-Class Amps) is 0.002 ohms.

If I compare it to your PASS Labs 250, with a DF of 150, it's Ro equals to:

0.053 ohms. In other words. it's 26 times lower Ro, of better DF !

How it is achieved: 

D-Class is a high speed switching power device. It uses some H-FET or equivalent high power and very low ON resistance, between the power rails and the output. That's the DF or Ro are coming from.

For the Devialet 120 (replaced an older model called 110, and now they are at 140...) I'd found no Spec. regarding it's DF. I'll try to contact them later today to ask their technical support about the DF figure.

As It was on my last thread, it is also now (Physics didn't change), the higher the DF (same cables length) the importance of thick cables grows.

The other parameter that I use in my calculations, is the cable length. 

I assume the length is the same: 6 ft.?

Hi
Here is Mr.  Hiroko (Devialet) replay:

Hiroko (Devialet)

Jul 29, 2020, 12:04 PM GMT+2

Dear Michael,

Thank you very much for reaching out to us today.

I have received an answer from our engineer.
Please kindly be informed that the Spect of DF of the 120 is 8000.

Hope it helps your inquiry.

Have a great day!
Kind Regards,

Hiroko | Customer service & support Devialet

8000 is a very high figure for DF.
The highest I've ever seen!!!

For the calculations, you wont like it at all...
It calls for 25x 0 awg! @ 6ft. long cable.
This is impossible and very thick.
I would say:
1. Go as thick as you possible can.
2. Some  Devialet amps can be used as monoblock.
If you could afford that, a very short cable (10'' or less) would make it better, using still a thick cable (maybe #000 awg or 4x0 awg).

It might be that a second answer will arrive directly from their main office in Paris, with whom I spoke on the phone today.
If they provide a different figue, I'll update you.

Hi
Even though you may double the #0 awg, it is far from go all the required way by calculations.
I suspect that the way a D-Class Amp’s DF is calculated, may not be the actual DF.
I’m not shure. So things might be some less extreme than 8,000! 
However, the numbers are still high in relative to an A-B Class.

Doubling would do better. Hope you know how to get there...
Please be kind to update on progress and results.
Thanks.

I figured up of how to make a 4x 0 awg. It is a bit costly here (Israel).
For some #0 awg cable, I about to receive any day now, I paid $130 per
each 20ft cable. So a pair of 10ft. #0 awg, I will end up with $370 for the BOM.
a 4x 0 awg would pile up to way over $1k.
I don’t want to think of what a thicker cable will cost like!
I'm building a cable for domestic demo. 

Mr. milpai
The budget is really not the issue here.
All members who tried the recommended cable (DIY) ended up spending under $100.-
As Mr. keppertup did, who is one post before yours, says he found a source on eBay, with 0 awg cables, at $2 a foot. (4x6x2=$48).

If you can’t afford $48 or $100, than your kind words and idea may apply.
I think that all can afford such an expense. That’s my reality.
You see, I do not recommend geometry or other snake oil treatments to make a nice profit and charge for a shitty cable $50k.
What I offer is a service for free. The implementation will be really low cost and the results: stunning.

Even better: What else would improve your sound (by any scale) at this amount?

The sonic benefit was huge. The outcome: some remained in contact and we become friends.

I stand behind my say, and I'm NOT the president of the United State :-)
(From the movie Mr. President, with Michael Douglas).

Thank you Mr. keppertup

I read about Devialet products and concept, found them to very innovative and creative. They have indede some very interesting products and designs: both electronically as well as the look.
Using D class direct with a DAC is a good idea, saving a lot of circuitry, by driving the output power Amp almost directly with a digital signal...
That shown also in the fantastic Spec. numbers.
Would you please be kind to pass me the link for your cable ($2 per ft.).
Thanks.
I ordered 2 (one red and one blue) of 20ft at $75 each.
The problem is, that because of size and weight, it gets to $130 each,
including shipping. 

Thanks

Mr. kozka

Your name is a "dice" (kocka) in Hungarian. Best regards (Egészségért).

To whom do you answer with your post?

For the sake of this conversation, we are in speaker cables and their effect on the system’s sound. Just semantics...
They do make a difference. It can be shown with calculations.
It can be demonstrated by two different cables, of the same length, but different cross section.

No one recommend to stuck a cable into someone's ear. Especially not one as thick as
#0 awg as I offered to some.

Hi Mr. keppertup

Congratulations. You really make me happy with your great news.
I wish to share that I also received my cables today (from the US). Slight delay of 2 days, due to COVID-19. No big deal.

The best way for you, would be to get two monoblocks of such high DF, and get a short as possible cable. Less than 10’’!

I need you to understand that the only parameter that matters, is the cables resistance vs. the Amp’s output resistance (Ro).
So the different type of cables has no significance. You are good.
As a cable’s resistance = to a constant, multiplied by length (in meters) and divided by cross section in mm2.
Just by short the length by half, you can gain the same on cross section.
5 feet = ~ 1,5m
It’s already 16 times #0 awg instead of 32 times.
But if you could get it down to 25 cm (6 times shorter), you could have it right with 16/6 = 3 times # 0 awg (DF = 8,000).

I’m sorry to inform you that Devialet main office let me down and answered only after another email and two weeks.

Enjoy.

For all others out there, you see I’m series and confident about my theory. It really works. One more happy guy.

I built a cable this last Sat. 3 m long and #0 AWG thick.
Yesterday I demonstrated it. It was a nice and happy demo:
It replaced a #9 AWG, same length, connected to a Power Amp. with DF of 1,600.
The smile on this guy's face is there till now (a day latter). The sound improved significantly. The bass went lower and tighter. Like a subwoofer was added, just by exchanging the cables!
The mid and highs became crystal clear and balanced. The details increased, like if we focus a picture with a lense. The sound was much better and different from the original cable.
He asked to keep the cable for a week, to play with, and listen to more CDs.
The Guy has a collection of 18,000 CD titles! Most classical.

Hi Mr.  keppertup

I spoke yesterday with the guy I did the domo for, and he said that the smile is still on his face...
He has two sets of Amplification.
A set of two mono blocks, made by an Israeli firm, and an H2O.
We tried it first with the moco blocks, as they were his favorites.
But there was a problem. There was no Spec on the web site or anywhere, about the Amp's DF!
We called the maker, to find out the missing data. He claimed they do not know, as it never been measured because it is insignificant and doesn't matter.
Unfortunately for him' it was after my cables were hooked. So the DF vs Cable's resistance were proven already. 
The conversation was ended with a look saying all and we switched to the H2O (DF=1,600). It stayed there till the end of the Demo.
It is so bizarre, that people (so called Audiophiles), tend to argue a subject, they know nothing about, never tried it and still do it. Why?

Mr.  millercarbon

You have no idea how to select a speaker cable. Trust me on that. A speaker cable can be calculated per Amp's DF and cable length.
I do it, and it works. look above!
All you think is not based on knowledge. It's your wild guess as you have nothing better.

Mr. estereo23

#8 AWG

For this cable you can use Nakamichi banana plugs: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/8x-Nakamichi-24k-Gold-Plated-Audio-BFA-Banana-Speaker-Plug-Screw-Cable-Wire-/271234103733?epid=1488360768&hash=item3f26cff9b5:g:m4AAAOxyaRZR2UT1
They can have #8 AWG directly.

Mr. keppertup

Thanks for sharing your impressions from your upgrade.
I’m happy that it works for you.

The increase is not linear all the way. it looks more like a Capacitor Charging Graph:
http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com/Articles/Capacitor-charging.php
Keep in mind that my recommanded calculation, for DF=8000 was an enormous 32x 0 AWG. That would be your 95% point on the chart.
The 3 or 4 first #0 AWG cables are still at the bottom part of that chart.
Every cable adds significantly vs the level before.
32x 0 AWG is not a practical option...we can assume that already.

Just to be kindly reminded, it is better for you to get two mono blocks and place them very close to the speakers. Every time you get rid off 1/2 the length, you can get rid of 1/2 the cross section.
That could get down from 32 to 16, or 8 or 4 x0 awg...where you are just about to be next.

Insights...

A few years ago, a good friend of mine, got a new sound system:
B&W 802D speakers, PASS Labs 205.8 power and the 12 Pre.
I calculated and build him a set of #4 AWG speaker cables.
It sounded well and since he is happy with his sound.
Yesturday, I visited him with my newly built #0 AWG cable (same length).
We listened to some tracks with his #4 AWG and than connected the #0 AWG.
Before the power was turned on, I’ve told him that the sound will remain the same. My calc. were claiming that a #4 AWG is what he needs, and any thicker, will be a waist of $$$.
He turned the power on, and the same tracks sounded identical.
This is the first time I’m putting to test this part of my theory.
It worked.
It’s kind of funny, that I was happy that it didn’t sound different!
Well it has proven that my theory is on spot and working both directions.
So guys,
I’m happy to report that the theory is working in practice with grate accuracy.
I hope, one day all speaker cable manufacturers will be honest and genuine enough to do it my way and start providing you the right cables for your system, without the "other" claims they sale today.
It works.
It really works, and works well.

Mr. unfairlane

If you would be kind to read back a bit, you would find out two major things:
1. The calculation works,
2. If you connect a thicker cable than required by calc. it will not improve sound.
For a tube amp. with so many floues, the cable is minor.
I see you promote the solid cables agenda. It is BS. Go sale it elsewhere. 

Mr. unfairlane

"calculations which cannot always be trusted" Tell this no NASA or any Airborne manufacturer.

Bi/tri- wiring is BS. Run it on a Spice simulation and see why.

No conductor needs BI. It is the most common say for dealers to prevent a bad sounding product, from being returned and refunded. For real, nothing changes over time.

Mr. unfairlane, over your skills and talents, you talk of subject and I’m not going to offer you a job...

Mr. Dave_b2

The brend is not significant. The cable’s electric characteristics ARE!
No cable brend, as respected as they are, do not propose you what you need, by the requirements of your gear.
Getting and "Audioquest Rocket 33", or any other is a dumm shot in the dark. You may repeat that costly try again and again, with no guarantee to hit the right cable! but it will be be an expensive and frustrating process.

Mr. vinylshadow

The relation of a copper conductor (cable, wire) is:
R = ro x L (m) / S (sq. mm)
When R is the resistance (in Ohms),
ro is the copper constant conductivity value,
L is the length in meters and
S is the cross section in square millimeters. 
You may use the AWG
table: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
For every 1/2 on length, that the cables is shorter, you can let also 1/2 on cross section, so the R will remain the same.
Why 2 meters?
Why not 1 m? (3') it's more than enough.
On 1 m you can go with #12 AWG.
For 2m as you ask for (!) is #9-10 AWG.
A DF of 100 is not much for monoblocks. A mediocre Japanese receiver of the 70's was 40! 
Follow my recommendations about eBay and Nakamichi banana plugs, you will end under $100.- for the best results.
The Nakamichi banana plugs can have up to an #8 AWG cable, without problems. The labor time is about 1hr. the results: excellent.

Mr. Dave_b2
MIT use a small box along the cable. that has some passive components.
Look at it is some filter, if not a gimmick to charge you and doe nothing!
I opened once an MIT cable, they use HF antenna cables, with shield and solid middle wire. They are shorten at the ends.

Look at a cable that works with your DF and length. Pass me the information and I'll calculate for you the AWG. It's for free.
At least you will know what AWG you need. The brand providing it is insignificunt.

Mr. vinylshadow

For 8' long and DF of 100 you need a #8 AWG cable.
But why 8' if you have two monoblocks? Place them as close as possible to the speakers and run the distance between the pre and the  monoblocks with XLR. 
However, if you stick to the 8' arrangement, I would advise you to find some #8 AWG cable on eBay, pair it (by soldering) with 8 Nakamichi banana plugs: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/4x-Nakamichi-24k-Gold-Plated-Audio-BFA-Banana-Speaker-Plug-Screw-Cable-Wire...
It will sound better than any cable you may buy...

Mr. tweak_1

The Wire World website information is irrelevant. 
Use an OFC cable that is flexible enough, with lots of thin strands, would be the best. For length: you need to say. The thickness for such length, is set by the Amp's DF spec.
All tricks as for skin effect, cable's geometry, cryo treatment, Bi-Wire, or any other of that long list (including Burn Ib (BI) are nothing but BS.
My suggestion, to use two separate (the red and black), and not a twin in one cable. That is the best for no Capacitance. 

Mr. Dave_b2

Why talking when you can walk down to the field and play it?
Try this out, and than see.
You are kind of having an Anti-approach, while never gave it a try. Why not?
It will cost you nickels compared to other fancy cables, or any other change in your hi-end audio gear.
With fantastic results. It should stay under $100. No other attempt would cost you so little, and gain you so much.
Sorry if I need to apologize, that I figured it out. But I did, and others did not.

Mr. vinylshadow

The DF is a given, once you purchase your Amp. You can look for a better, or let it be as is.
DF is defined as the ratio (pure number) between the constant, pure resistive value of 8 ohms of a speaker load, divided by the Amp’s output resistance.
The figure of output resistance is the way the Amp’s drives the speaker.
Keep in mind that a speaker is a complex device with reverse current, generated by the speaker to resist the Amps will to move it.
So at that part, DF is critical.
However, tube amp’s sound nice and have very low DF! less than 20...
It is nice but not right. Some like it this way, others like it that way.

Some pick a very beautiful wife and do love when their eyes are open. For the less fortunate, there is the option to close their eyes and imagine...

Some makers, often mentioned here, may have some says, but none tells you what spec. should your speaker cable have. NONE!
The only Amp maker that went this way (telling you about speaker cabling) is MBL. They mention it, but they not tell you nothing. Even the DF is top secret. Sorry, that is not a recommandation! mine is.
The idea I bring, been tested and proven. Even with over thick cables (vs calculation) that brought no sonic improvement.
It is correct that some combinations (Amp’s / Speakers / Cables) has more significant improvement, when other combination has less.
If you follow the physics and get the optimal cable as calculated, it guarantees that you are good.
Any other approach, is a blind shot in the dark. The problem is that no manufacturer is telling you which cable you need, and every try is a load on your wallet.
Yes, for those who have more money that brain, or money is not an object, it may be a game they will be willing to finance. Still a waist of time, with never know if you have reached the best or still looking...
For all others, there is a way to go, to nail it on the first and only required approach: Calculating the cable and than get one.

Mr. vinylshadow

There is a post in my mailbox, that is missing here. For a reason...?

1. Yes, I know Jeff Rowland.
2. No, I didn't hear your model playing.
3. I never tend to say if DF of a 100 is good or bad. It is relatively low for power amps. Most have more...Just a fact.
4. Never thought to undermine anyone 's equipment. It was your choice to buy it, and I respect it.
So please no offence regarding low, mid or high DF. It is what it is.
However, I do sincerely apologize if I hurt any feelings. Never meant such to happen. 

#16 AWG would do.

Mr.  qilin_maker

The answer is NO !
It was tested with a system of a friend, using PASS LAB 250W power Amp, with calculated cables of #4 AWG.
On an occasion I made a new cable of #0 AWG for demo, I tested it with his system (and a nice bottle of wine), replacing the #4 AWG, by the #0 AWG. Sound did not improved.

I need to say that your DF is kind of low (40), so it really not the place to look for the sound improvement.
Usually DF is about controlling the speakers. If so, the higher the better.
To get the control effect with high DF Amp's a proper cable is required.

Mr.  dave_b

Regardless, if you have a point or not, till you won't offer a better solution, you practically have nothing.
I also have more than 40 years of experience, but this "eurica" came to me only in the past 10-15 years. I did extensive tests and used this stage of Audiogon, to run it around the world:
US, England, Singapore, Israel and more. I worked everywhere it was given a try.
It started (naturally) with my own sound system (Klipsch Forte-II with CARVER TFM-35). Than I went with the same idea to a dear neighbour of mine, with a KEF Ref. and a McIntosh SS power. It had no improvement! That drove me to the drawing board and came out with a formula. The idea was, as just mentioned, tested extensively. So tests approved it works.
What do you have? 
Nothing! 

Sorry for your fixed minded and narrow view, that gets you to the conclusion that trying more, gets you somewhere. It can only tell you that all passed attempts failed. Otherwise, how would you explain the rest of your endless trying ?
The one who is delusional is you. If you would follow, rather than argue, you could nail it on the first attempt. Would that be better and less costly?
What insights do you have from all your tries?
Try more?
Do you know what characteristics of one cable' of all tries, prevails on another cable? Would getting more of that would get you a better sound?

Your say only proves, that you spent a lot of time (and money) for nothing. 
Congratulations.
If you would have the knowledge, it would save you all that.
This is the advantage of knowledge over ignorance. 
Dave, some knowledge don't hurt.
Ignorance does. 
This debate, over something I extensively tested and approved, over you, who never tried is an absurd. 

Mr. dave_b

Owning equipment gets you no knowledge about it. So your bumptious response gets you no advantage. Its only a miserable attempt of a shallow character. All you may say is that you can afford the equipment.

Instead of wasting time (yours and mine) arguing a subject you do not understand, just try it. If you would do, and get different results, we could have a conversation. As all you have to bring to the table, is a negative attitude, statements of ownership and tones of ignorance, I see no point to keep arguing with you.

Mr. Dave_b

Enjoy the journey. It will never end. However thanks for enlightening the followers, it is "first hand experience" rather some understanding or knowledge. It is sad and disappointing, to find out after so long that you are as ignorant you were when your journey started. It is comforting that at least you had enjoyed that nothing.

You know that your request is impossible to fulfil, as cable makers do not provide spec. information. For a reason.  So what can we compare with? Your joy?

Dave

Playing around with specimens might be fun as playing search and cath blindfolded. This game is fun for kids till a certain age. After, it becomes childish. So is your pathetic say about your ways to get to the right speaker cable. Not to say, that even the one you poses now, is  NOT the one.
It might as well be another step in your journey. An endless journey.
No need any more. Now, as the knowledge is there, it can be reached on the 1st attempt.
Even though you are very proud of your enjoyable journey, it doesn’t give you a clue of what is the best (and right) cable for the next guy that is going to visit the audio shop, for his speaker cable!
You offer him an endless journey, with no promised results, but maybe a joy from the journey...
I offer him a quick calculation, and the right cale, spot on, on the first attempt.
In other words, lets say that we (you and me) are saling two different GPS navigators (Never lost).
Yours will go around, get you some journey, but no garanties for getting to your destiny, but giving you some illusion that you will get there soon.
Mine, is a 1st time on spot, with the fastest and shortest path.
I’m really sorry for your poor choice.
I do acknowledge that your way is very beneficial for cable makers, sales guys and shop owners. I kind of think, that you are just happy to feed them with your hard earned $$$.
No need. There is a way available to save all that.

Mr. bjesien

Just for the record, the most ordinary copper wire in the electrical industry, has by standard a purity of 99.98%. So no matter how much of an effort or price is added, it worth only 0.02% in conductivity (resistance). Moving from copper to Silver, that is agreed to be the best conductor from all materials, Silver is only 5% better than copper but costs (crude stock market price) 130 times more.
Adding 5% in the copper wire cross section, would equal it to the silver wire...
So, as I see it, this is not the light to look under it, for the missing coin.

DF is about control. The ability of the Amp to drive a compex speaker coil, that is also a generator, objection equally the current caused it to move. Add a crossover with some C and L.
When DF is low (as the case with tubes), the Amp’s designer, by intention, gave up that quality. Tubes have by nature low current and high voltage. All tube amps use an output transformer to convert that into lower voltage and higher current. Some, like McIntosh use such topology even with their SS amps, to achieve a tube like sound, without using tubes. Keep in mind that most speakers impedance is 8 ohms, so at 2.83V they consume 1W.
For that reason, the serial resistance that the speaker cable add to the Amp’s output resistance is insignificant with a DF=20.
It’s more significant when DF=200 or 800...
When that parameter with SS amps, and DF>200 is achieved, it provides clarity and better bass. Tight and clear.
Such would have a positive effect on the mid and highs, as they get a release from the "heavy bass".

Well, the formula suggests an improvement from thin cables till the calculated value is applied. When that is increased, above the calculated value, sound remains the same. Only the cable is getting more expensive and difficult to build. This been tested with my friend’s system (B&W801D with 250W Pass lab’s power amp with DF=200). I calculated his cable to be of #4 AWG and 3m long and built one for him. Some time ago, after completed a demo cable of the very same length (3m) but #0 AWG, I put it to test and compared between the two: #4 AWG vs #0 AWG.
As predicted, there was no improvement or degradation in sound. They sounded identical.
So unless you use some cable with a twick, like MIT with a box or similar, getting thicker should not effect your sound.