Amps which double their rated outputs or don't aren't always the place to start looking for brightness issues. Doubtless few if any of us will actually push an amp far enough along that it needs to output its highest level of voltage or current production. Usually we arent even close to requiring such amplitudes.
I've owned Krell, BK, & BAT, SS amps along with reasonably sensitive, and insensitive speakers ranging from 84db to 93db. 2 ohm to 8 ohm.
Brightness usually results from areas other than limited power output.
The glaring item indicated here predominately is the rooms outfitting
and why so many point to making changes there and I do agree.
However
thats not the only place Id look. One spot to check out is your cable/satellite ground connection. It may not be as pronounced a thing as to produce the usually noticeable ground loop noise, yet might be still introducing sufficient artifacts to the system which will affect the upper midrange and treble areas by its very nature. I -say this as it was my issue
twice. Once in my old home, and then again in this new one.
Simply remove the main incoming cable connection, and/or go outside to the power pole and lift the cable ground. Wait a half an hour or so, and try the rig again. It should be plainly evident if thats contributing.
Having recently heard the butler topology in my own system, Im hard pressed to believe its the amp. Especially if you are using the 250 wpc version. I used one with 100 wpc less. Theres nothing bright about that amp at all. I found it extended and warmish across the freq range. The amp aint it. It drove my 86db dropping to 2 ohm towers, handily.
It seems though, cables arent a concern for you as none are listed nor has a response been issued that I noticed as to what is where on your rig in that regard. Wires matter.
Cabling is a part of, not a part from, the total system synergy, contrary to what others might feel. Such is my own exp. My failure to properly address the wiring cost me sufficiently. I thought the system entirely mismatched and lost a lot selling it all off in near new condition
then setting about to replace it all over again with different items, naturally. Sony CDP, B&K, Krell pre & amp, Monitor Audio Gold 60, BW 9NT, 805, 600S, Velodyne sub.
It wasnt the gear.
Lastly, as power filtration or conditioning was also left out of your list of system componentry I would look there too. Power line artifacts can indeed cause some attenuation of the freq band and by so doing, seemingly enhance other portions of it and contribute mightily to the fatigue factor. With a good one youll hear less of what you arent hearing, and more of what you should.
Isolation or racking & shelving of the gear is as well, another area you might look into. You dont mention the stand you use either so I gotta in all good conscience jot that down as it can also be quite contributory to affecting both sound staging and tone.
I went from an MDF wood rack, to a metal rack with acrylic shelves
and could not figure out why my formerly rich and warm sounding rig became so fatiguing. At that time I BAT pre and amp, with either Phase Tech or VR4 JR speakers
upscale cabling, and PS Audio & Shunyata passive power line filters at various times
again, it wasnt the gear.
It was how the gear was set up.
Adding pods, nodes, shelves/platforms helped a lot, but getting a dedicated well damped rack was the true big deal changer. Plywood helped on the metal & plexiglass monstrosity I had, so did simple wood block footers, especially the Ebony & Mahogany ones. Cocobolo was by far the smoothest sounding though of the lot.
These few areas are quick and easy enough to investigate and their associated fixes are quite inexpensive, save for the power line option, and cabling updates or upgrades.
Wood block footers are near free, compliant footers arent much more
see herbies Audio labs, a filter unit for the inline coax is about $10. A 2x2 hunk of Plywood is about $5. The Cable Co rents conditioners and cables too.
At some point (s) Ive had similar issues to yourself, and all of the above were areas I had to ultimately address to resolve it/them.
Unless your gear needs servicing, that aint it.
Believe it or not
. Good
a Ripleys plug.
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Gregfisk
I noticed great extension using the butler multi ch amp with my receiver, still greater with only my BC DAC 3, and when attached to my tube preamp and better cabling, it was more than intriguing. Piercing, etched, glaring, or hard sounding, it was not
not with any pair of speakers, or pre/pro combined with it. Even using my most modest spkr cables and sans conditioning on my tuffest spkrs, it sounded very nice.
On every other occasion however, it was fueled by an upscale power cord, and got its power via a Running springs Haley power line filter which was inturn, supplied by yet another upscale pc. The pcs in my case certainly can be migrated about to add or subtract their audio influences from time to time, but I like the Elrod Sig III as supply cord for the Haley
and the older red Python VX for the revolving digital items. The Gold dragons drive SS amps and my DD 15
. Usually. PCMV.
I run the rec and tube pre directly from a dedicated 20 A ckt. Sources, are provided via either the Haley or a PS Audio duet and as well, Taipan helixs most often or a Nirvana pc, or Voodoo Tesla II. OEM power cords around here stay in the box they came in or find their way onto a cable box, VCR, pc, etc.
Those wire choices I submitted earlier are as just, but on perhaps a more amenable front, financially. Ive jotted down my thoughts here on the gon in reviews of Voodoo power cords, and others. Not sure about the Taipan helixs though. They are a more up front higher resolute and detail oriented cord which offers a more front row sound stage, and introduces a harmonic rightness that is very attractive when used on tube gear especially.
The Voodoo Black has an expansive sound stage and yet again, that near front row seating scenario, yet is vastly smoother though still allowing for great detail. Both work everywhere and with almost any scenarios save for use with digital masking cords with high capacitance. It will also seem to lower the overall timber range by nearly an octave, thereby adding more bottom end and relieving an attention getting top end. The Tsunami pc is about as smooth as is the Voodoo. A Cardas or its doppelganger, the Mongoose could also be effective for you.
Id have mentioned the Shunyata Python VX, and helix VX but they range upwards of $550 - $700. With newer models just now out, these prices might drop more so quite soon. For more info on these or other pcs, just PM me. Same for cables that might help your rig or have some interest to you.
Just as fitting together a systems devices, the same process is had for mixing cabling, or even choosing to enlist the same brand cabling throughout.
AS for the aerial 10Ts
Ive heard even from dealers that didnt sell them, they were great speakers
then. Maybe now too. Albeit, a close look at their numbers might find you in need of some other power supply for them
Im not so familiar with them I can recall their specs just now. Your amp should be fine I guess with 10Ts.
250wpc @ 8 ohm amps are probably the place to begin building a new rig. Wether they double down at 4 ohms or not, isnt nearly the ticket. Its the amount of reserve power they have on tap. Without enormous power reservoirs apparent in the construction of an amp, to gain needed headroom, the ability to double a rated power output very well may be required. BAT illuminates this reserve power ideal as best as any in the industry. The BAT vk 500 SS amp that makes 250wpc @ 8, is likewise to the butlers output of 400 @ 4
. Yet the power banks are vastly different, with BATs being far bulkier. I know of some which use the vk200 (100wpc @ 8) to drive panel speakers that are quite power hungry.
Sonically the 500 and 5150 were much more alike, than different.
To understand better some terms I use frequently, openness for me, is when I point to the separation of images in a sound stage. Closed in, similarly but as its opposite. Expansive sound stages by their nature open up the recreated venue.
Power cords do primarily two things
formulate a sound stage better, and refine the sound itself, in many cases. The Darkness terms associated with BAT I think revolve about direct comparisons, and a lack of attention to adding the proper wires to them. For dark as I understand it equates to muddy or a lessened ability to discern facets within the reproduction. BAT amps arent dark
and their preamps definitely are not.
Ill say this and split
if effecting a cure for the situation and the amount of money available to do it is finite, and overt room treatments a no no, look into razing the bar commensurately with your cabling, to a more appropriate level to that of your current system components. Therell be a lot less thinking about replacing gear thereafter
till the mood strikes once more. Rugs and plants can go a long way to helping a room sound better too.
TVAD
Sure.
The point you miss is simple
. Everyone else is not you. Do not have your resources. Inordinately high standards
. Or personal temperament. On your account, one could spend on just 3 amp in home demos, $600, if the entire burden of shipping was the demoees, and only a 10% sir charge was assessed on amps retailing for $1000.
and perhaps be no better off. Not to mention having to use aural memory predominately thru the series of trials. Even with wizard like skills of coordinating shipping and arrival times, once 4 amps are in house theres the needed settling in and switching about which can be quite confusing. Unless of course, one offering initiates some profound auditory epiphany. Let alone there be some cooling off time following that event which could further confuse things
and then were back to Well, what if I had put a so & so pc on that whosit, instead of the ABC it had on it then?
But it does sound good on paper to serve it up as an option I suppose. Its just that I find it costly and possibly providing no true answer once endured.
I feel until a system and/or room is stabilized in fact or just pretty good, not only does one not really know what they have on hand, nor will they by migrating in & out other major devices so prematurely.
How is your own cabling, conditioning, and power cord situation, BTW? Still using OEM pcs and entry level or DIY cabling? How about platforms and those aluminum cup & ball (Oreos?) footers?
I recalled you saying frequently some years ago Everything matters. Has your position on that changed now?
I saw the other day a thread where you said cabling would not be the way you would attend to a speaker problem regarding some Wilson Sophias and the Ops designs on upgrading away from them. There in that same thread was a follow up which pointed out how much change was made to the Stereophile reviewers thoughts by making some cable changes. That resolution came after other major items had been moved in and out, without notable success. Making some suggested wire changes the results were well improved and the reviewers stance took on a complete about face.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1249339357&openmine&zzBlindjim&4&5#Blindjim
course, you remain consistent. Ill give you that
as singularly authoritative as it may come across now and then. IMO
Ease up Grant, you ain't all that.
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Gregfisk
Quick Q: Did this brightness issue start only after adding the Butler amp, or has it always been lean clean, and bright sounding? If so, you have your answer on the amp not being the culprit.
Ever wonder how many amps are out there which do not double their outputs when the load impedance is halved? A bunch.
Ever wonder too, why the owners of these amps arent lineing up posting about top end brightness?
Did this system you have ever sound otherwise than it does now? Exactly when did this brightness clear and clean non musical adventure first rear up its head noticeably? Id look there then.
Id bet good money to or with whomever, the items I noted above if addressed, would remedy that fatiguing sound you are encountering, without undertaking wholesale component change outs. Of course youll find out when another amp is employed. maybe.
AS Tvad says repeatedly do ensure the ??? amp doubles its power when the imp of the loudspeakers is halved though. Considering any other sort which does not is just time well wasted
or so it seems. Such advice will surely narrow the field of amps to look into for your needs. Given the Butler's output, start with those in the 400 wpc @ 4 Ohms... and up, as you already have that on tap.
Never mind the voice of the amp
or associated gear, setup and cabling, its simply always the power aspect.
Its funny the notes of system fixes follow the trends of their posters. Gear houhnds point to the gear as the bug a boos, room treatment aficionados allude respectively to adding items there, cable mavens exclaim buy better wires, etc. well, to each their own aim. And after all, its only money.
BTW, there's nothing wrong with those approaches or philosophies, I just feel all of the rig needs careful scrutiny, not merely the stuff you rest on the rack or a shhelf.
it might be as simple as one said the spikes or footers of the 7Bs... or their need for a platform of sorts.
Putting another engine into a car that has bad brakes, a slipping transmission, and or poor suspension, only remedies motor problems.
The thing which confounds me here is Ive never heard anyone remark the 7Bs were aggressive in their upper ends. Never. This is a first for me
so in fact Im going on their popularity and no mentions of their so apparent shortcomings. I know that Butler isnt contributing adversely to the situation too.
FYI
* Hand selected/matched 6SL7GT Twin Triode tubes
(One per channel)
Fully regulated Tube Heaters with Delayed Soft Start
(10-15 second turn-on delay)
Load Adaptive Vacuum Tube Driven output circuitry
Modular power channels with a seperate massive, oversized heatsink for each channel
Independent AC Secondaries and Rectifiers
with 60,000µF per channel filtering
SPECS
Rated Power (all channels driven):
2 x 250 Watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms
2 x 400 Watts RMS per channel @ 4 ohms
1 x 800 Watts RMS Bridged (Mono) @ 8 ohms
Freq response: 20Hz to 20kHz (+/- 0.5dB)
Power Bandwidth: -3dB, 50kHz
THD: <0.10% @ 8 Ohms, <0.15% @ 4 Ohms
S/N Ratio: Better than 120dB (A-Wtd)
Slew Rate: 15v/µsec
Input Sensitivity: 2V for 250 Watts into 8 Ohms
Input Impedance: 47k Ohms
400 wpc into 4 ohms!
If thats not enough power for the 7Bs, maybe other speakers or as said, another amp is needed, depending on which one of those two is the newer or more desired. Personally the 7Bs could be more easily improved upon IMO.
Anything is possible I guess. The Aerials may just hate the Butler or vice versa.
Despite Tvad's well meaning but abreviated listing of proposed areas to find possible avenues for a resolution, I made mention of my own listings as the result of my own exp... and found out about it the hardest way imaginable, by spending money that did not need spending, had I looked into the system as just that a system. The sum of it's parts all working together to perform properly and provide enjoyment for the owner.
The underlying caveat here and elsewhere has always been, "Everything matters, and everthing makes a difference."
Perhaps it has changed now.
I do pray your issue is resolved quickly and without more frustration or length. |
Gregfisk
Re-reading throughout the thread I saw where you noted the Monster cables, and one other sort. Before I plunked down serious money to replace good items with other good items, Id strongly suggest you check out just two power cords. A Voodoo Black Dragon, or a Shunyata Taipan helix VX
both of which if attached to that DAC will completely ease off the bite you are getting in the highs of your rig
both should run you under $375 or so. The VooDoo new should be a bit less.
If using the stock pc on your Butler, simply adding a sunami pc there will help too
about $170 or so.
If $$$ for ICs is an issue, the Audio Art ICs arent bad at $100 per pair, and for still less, the Micro pearls from Goertz are severe over achievers and were listed on Stereophiles preferred cable list. The AA are a bit rounder sounding than the MPs. Used Pearls run around $50 or so per pair. Kimber hero might help too in the budget cable area at about $100 per pr. But Ive not heard them.
Id also spend $25 on some Vibra pods and put them under either the Capri or Link III.
The Cable Co. can give you more options and afford you a better perspective for a small investment, which you can recoup on any subsequent purchase.
Almarg
Interesting observation, Jim. I suppose that a reason for that is that it's hard "at a distance" to have a feel for the DEGREE of excess brightness, and if everyone had first-hand exposure to the sound, opinions would probably be more convergent.
Definitely.
I so commiserated with the title:
How to fix my detailed, accurate but BRIGHT system
having been in that exact spot previously, albeit with differing gear and room. Noteably gear which did not have any of those inherent characteristics, and a far smaller less reflective room!... yet the same or likewise end product was my own dilemma! It astounded me.
The fix was some investigations into and acquisitions of, power cords, interconnects, racks, isolation, and devices which attended to signal integrity and its transmission, along with addressing power line artifacts and their control or suppression or elimination.
What I ultimately wound up with was the best sounding rig Ive ever owned. One I promptly sold off a week later. lol. I did that so I could investigate another haunting auditory experience pertaining to an all tube set up. To that end, Im not regretful
well, not much.
Personal experience has few peers. Yet my own experiences seldom emulate someone elses identically.
My position on system formulating and tuning turns an eye towards those areas that affect the balance and voice of a rig with as much or nearly as much impact
. As do its major devices. Once, of course, the prime components are in place.
Another factor for me is operating without the resources that allow for wholesale interchangeability of the main parts.
So much of the gear made today is very very good, and only the flavor of it gives us possible consternation, as we go about mixing and mating a this .with a that. Barring outright poorly mixed scenarios and I dont see this one as such; a finger pointing out causality might rest itself on those other contributing aspects of the systems entirety. Although there can be some preconceived notions which preclude thoughts pertaining to investigations of these areas, Ive found for a thing to be true, it doesnt require my belief in it. It is true with or without me.
Some folks simply dont believe accessories or peripherals amount to providing much if at all, any tangible influence to the sound or performance of their audio rig. Hanging it all onto the main players, sources, power train, and speakers.
Consequently, these non main stream areas roll along almost completely ignored by a good many. Developing technology has conjured some powerful magic into these areas since the 60s & 70s, and they all merit more thoughtfulness these days. Not to mention their costs remain usually well less than the owners main appliances.
I know, because I did exactly that
I ignored or devaluated the import of wiring, attendance to power line purity, acoustic treatments, and mechanical isolation. Only thru the ongoing nagging of a friend I met here did I even begin to consider all these items did I realize substantial gains, and the genie was then out of the bottle.
Hearing a lesser powerful Butler in my home recently on more stodgy and less benevolent speakers, given the 7Bs numbers, Im pretty sure racing off after another amp might not be the most efficient move to bust right now. Nor would I suggest it as the initial one to take. Especially as the OP said hed prefer not to as he likes the combo.
Richlanes post made a lot of sense. Mentioning the addition of a sub or two. Great idea Richlane! AS well, moving things into a more conducive room
though I bet some thinking went into selecting its present location and that will likely precluding further relocation.
TVAD
It wasnt an indictment, ya know. Sheesssh. Touch-eee!
My statement regarding your truncated list of options is quite valid, nonetheless. It didnt contain all of the avenues listed herein to that point
. Merely those paths and people you felt were more appropriate to the mix. By so eliminating other as noteworthy and genuine efforts, you diminish them all as you confirm others. Nothing did you note about mechanical isolation, power conditioning, or possible electrical troubles being present either. You simply made up your mind as to what was or is prudent and listed it.
If you are going to preface a list of options by assigning positive accolades to those people whose options are on the list, you as well lessen those who are omitted from it.
Everyone here offers something compelling from time to time, albeit, personal exp, levity, technical expertise, or simple unforeseen or heretofore unimagined perspectives.
One other item which could be embarrassing to some, is your cavalier attitudes towards the in home trials of major components you offer as paths for solutions so regularly. Its more than presumptuous. People who are buying, or have bought much if not all of there gear pre-owned, likely arent about to put up 2, 3, 4, or 5 thousand dollars for a look see in home trial which will likely include both shipping and restocking fees as well, if the item is rejected following the preview. Probably not just the $50 to $75 or more for shipping costs alone. Ask the folks at your Wyred 4 sound option if they will charge such fees
. and they do as I was recently told.
There is too the subjective position on sonic artifacts
. Is your own definition of bright, that of anothers? AS you prominately wrote you were in this thread the only other past owner of the aerial 7Bs
they werent owned with the same gear, or room and oh, yes, the same ears as the OP has. More importantly though, you might also indicate publicly far more often how easy you are to please, sonically speaking that is. Some might mistake the vast amounts of gear youve owned or previewed as mere curiosity otherwise.
Theres more than one way to build a mouse trap.
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