How Much to Spend on Turntable, Cart., Phono Pre


I was inspired by the other active thread ‘How Much to Spend to Make Vinyl Better Than Digital’ and have a similar question, but in a different context (my sysytem) and didn’t want coopt the other thread.  I would really love some advice about what sort of turntable, cart, phono pre, I need to shoot to be at least as viable (or more so) than digital in my system.  To help you give me advice I will give you some background.


I am relatively new to this hobby (less than four years in), so I am in many ways just a begnner, and particularly with respect to the world of turntables (I grew up in the CD era of 90’s) but at the same time, I’ve thrown myself into learning, and I’ve come a long way in a short time.  
 

While I have upgraded gear (Focal Kanta No.1, SVS 3000 micro subs x2, Lta Microzotl preamp, Pass XA25 amp, NAD m10v2 for streamer/Dac/Dirac), my two biggest revelations so far have been the profound benefits of room treatment (panels now cover nearly every inch of the walls and ceiling in the room) and the wonders of Dirac in managing bass, focusing imaging, and dialing everything in to taste.  I am in a place where I am now happy with my digital setup, but I would like to explore vinyl.  So….

I think my question is what sort of turntable, cartridge, and phono pre would  I need to make my vinyl setup substantially different enough (in a good way) and at least equally enjoyable (if not more enjoyable) as my digital setup?  


My only experiences with turntables (aside from short one off demos at dealers where I don’t know the room or system) come from before I was 12 years old when my parents owned one (doesn’t really count), and my ownership of a Victrola Stream Carbon  with an internal phono stage and Ortofon 2m Red Cartridge that I later upgraded to an Ortofon Black cartridge.  The cartridge upgrade was very nice and took me from not really liking vinyl because it was too veiled to enjoy it much, to finding it viable to listen to but not really feeling it was better. I guess I was hoping for more somehow.  Unfortunately, the turntable bit the dust (something electrical since it wont turn on, but its probably not worth repairing now) before I treated my room, switched speakers (Focal Aria to Kanta), switched amps (Parasound New Classic 2250v2 to Pass Labs Xa25), preamp (none to LTA Microzotl).  Due to this, it is hard to say for sure what I would get out of my old table if it still functioned, but I guess I was hoping for more magic at the time.  What I got was a sound that was sometimes more real or natural sounding (good), but often thinner and less resolving (I’m sure the phono stage sucked, but cannot say for sure since I had no comparables and it was non-defeatable).

I guess what I was hoping for then, and am hoping to get now, is something more akin to what I got when I added the LTA preamp to my chain and the tubes brought an infusion of naturalness and believability (i guess that’s how I’d class it) to the sound.  I want to know what turntable, cart, phono stage, can give me an alternative presentation that is a compelling alternative to my digital setup that I am very happy with.  My current digital system is vocally forward and very open (both to a degree naturally, and also due to my dirac EQ).  I would like the vinyl setup to emphasize vocals and make them as open, emotional, and lifelike as possible.  I am not afraid to spend a bit if it gets me to the finish line, but at the same time, I don’t have unlimited funds, and want to be sensible and invest in what actually moves the needle (literally and figuratively) not just go wild.  I view my other components as likely to be around for the foreseeable future.

I have watched about everything logical on Youtube, but comparisons between tables, carts, and phono stages are limited and difficult to interpret.  I have found chatgpt to be much more helpful.  

In my exploration I have considered the technics lineup (all new models really, 1500c,1200gr2,1300g,1200g) but chatgpt seems to suggest these would present more similarly to a more balanced digital setup and provide great balance and perfect timing compared to belt driven tables, but may not fit my desire to achieve an alternative to my digital setup and emphasize the naturalness of vocals (do you agree?) and suggests they may not be the best match for me.

I have explored Rega, particularly the P8 (on the assumption that the 8 is better than the 6 and don’t know if I want to make the budget stretch to the 10).  Chatgpt tells me the pace, rhythm, and punch are stars here, but there might be better options if vocals are my priority (do you agree).

I also am considering VPI, possibly something like VPI Prime X.  Chat gpt suggests this will provide great bass foundation and depth of sound, but again may not provide the vocal emphasis I am seeking (do you agree?)

I also investigated Clearaudio, but I was also not told this was a great match.

Chat gpt seems to recommend that I take a hard look at Michell turntables, which leaves only two within my budget the Tecnodec, and the Gyro SE.  Chat gpt says either will better align with my preferences for a clear alternative to my digital setup while emphasizing open organic vocals (do you agree?).  It suggests the difference between the two may not be that huge, but that the Gyro will bring more soundstage depth into play.  Interestingly, it suggests that the Tecnodec would be a better choice given what i am looking for in an emphasis on warm,open,  emotionally engaging vocals over even more expensive models from Technics 1300g or 1200g, or the Rega P8 or P10.

If I were living life according to chat gpt, i would opt for the Michell Tecnodec or Gyro SE, but living is for humans so I thought I would consult the humans here.

Frankly, I don’t even know if I should be selecting a turntable first, or if the phono stage or cartridge could/should be chosen first in this case.

I think might like to initially use my Ortofon 2m black and then swap it out for a great moving coil cartridge which will allow more initial investment in table and/or phono pre (I heard the Kiseki Purple Heart cartridge on a table in Hong Kong that I thought sounded great, but who knows how much can be attributed to that as compared to phono pre, room, speakers, amp, preamp, etc with which i was not familiar). But if this is the wrong approach I am willing to rethink this as well.

I frankly know nothing meanngful about phono stages and cartridges because despite trying reasonably hard to educate myself there are so few comparisons to be had, and I have so little experience or reference points, it just feels like guessing (sort of like I did when i grabbed my 2m Black and I still don’t know if I guessed right because I had no comparison aside from my prior Red).  The only thing I might say is if guessing, I might try a legit tube stage since  i loved everything my LTA preamp brought i didn’t have before, and if splurging on a cartridge I might try the Kiseki Purple Heart because I thought the system it was in sounded amazing the one time I heard it.  As you can see, these are not exactly anything close for a sound basis for making costly decisions.

I would love to hear your thoughts about what to consider (for everything), and which component you would lock in first if you were in my shoes.  Thanks!

 

 

matthewfpalmer

@2psyop The turntable was on my shortlist due to being aware of it from videos on Youtube from trade shows and chatgpt flagging it as a suitable option.  Ultimately, I was hearing all kinds of things from all different people, many of them really saying that which table you buy doesn’t matter a ton in the sound (at least within a price point), but that a good tonearm is important.  
 

I was hearing that VPI project big stages, but that their arms are polarizing and something that some people really seem hate and move on.  I considered vpi prime x, but wasn’t sure I wanted to jump in blind into a love it or hate it tonearm.  It also was at the top end of my budget which made it harder to get behind without any doubt.  

I considered Technics SL-1200mkii and 1200g.  Ultimately the problem was sort of the same for both.  A number of people say that the perfect timing of the technics leads to a more digital sounding presentation compared to belt drive.  This bothered me because I wanted to create a different flavor than my digital not just a faithful vinyl rendition of digital feel.  Some might say this is bogus and there is no difference between belt drive and direct drive on high end technics, but it bothered me.  I felt like I didn’t want to leave anything on the table here especially since naturalness with vocals is sort of the dragon I chase.  Also, people have said that technics, including the 1200g (compared to comparably priced tables) tend to have flatter soundstages.  Since I have a heavily treated room, I felt like this was a strike against them.  I pretty much eliminated technics for these reasons.  And while i know the 1200g surely would have been good enough for me since it is good enough for Steve Gutenberg, and I do now own his reference amp and preamp, so there is plenty of trust there, i just didn’t like having the aforementioned nagging at me in my mind at that price point.  And while it is built like a tank, i cant say I loved the aesthetic at the 1200g price point either.  Technics was out.
 

I strongly considered Rega P8, but I was a bit unsure of how their supposed vocal forward presentation would jive with my rich vocal centric dirac eq (although I could just make a new filter for vinyl so this was no biggie).  Ultimately, i was turned off by two things.  The light somewhat cheap build quality in some respects even though I like the modern styling and the sound is reportedly great.  Yes I know the materials are chosen to keep mass down, but when you look at the bottoms of some of their tables they just didn’t look/feel premium to me.  The second reason I couldn’t quite get behind this is the stock rega tonearm doesn’t really allow for full vta so it meant limitations on carts, using shims, or being locked into a rega cartridge world that I found slightly gimmicky from a review standpoint, pricing standpoint, abd a comparisons standpoint.  The third reason is pricing.  In the USA, we are paying significantly mire for the same table is in the UK (like 1k i think on the P8), which rubs me the wrong way since I have always tried to maximize value when buying in my system (Kantas came as closeouts on color from Germany, Pass xa25 was preowned, my lta level 1 was preowned that i upgraded to level 3) so paying an extra 1k just cuz rubbed me wrong.  The Michell Tecnodec for $2200 in the USA actually sells for more in the UK, and is sold at similar prices as Rega P8.  This bothered me.  Finally, the blonde chick Melinda from Florida on Youtube bought one after considering all her options, and since I haven’t been impressed with logic in anything she has done with anything in her system I figured I had to do better.

I very strongly considered the Michell Tecnodec.  It is priced very competively in the USA, and unlike the P8 this gave me the impression of having solidity and intent to last for decades and value for money spent.  I also liked the small family company bit and the John Michell backstory.  Michael Fremer has also said nice things about the inverted archmedes bearing which i thought was cool.  I liked the minimalist modern aesthetic.  It was at the top of my shortlist.

The turntable I probably would have bought (although it still could have been the Tecnodec) was the Dr. Feickert Volare.  Lots of great reviews on this company and model.  Only real strike against it was that Steve Huff bought one (which is concerning since nothing he buys lasts in his system for more than about 3 weeks) but aside from that there was lots of love out there.  It was at the top of my budget again.  I probably would have ultimately went for the Volare, but I was still strongly considering the Michell Tecnodec which I liked the design of and thought the value proposition of.

I didn’t really think I could swing a Michell Gyro SE at $6500 retail (or didn’t want to given the need for quality phono pre too).  I was always smitten by the at once minimalistic, futuristic, and retro design of this uniquely engineered table. Like the suspended design, the inverted archimedes bearing, and spinning weights because they are cool designs (regardless of what they do or don’t do with respect to the sound) sort of like over-engineering in a German car. Again, the same things that appealed for the Tecnodec about the small family run company and back story with John Michell, also pertained.  I also like that this is reputed to have a wide and dimensional soundstage. Really the only knock against it is having to move the belt down when playing 45’s (not really a big deal) and the price.  Really, I just couldn’t get to $6500 in my mind.  When a mint preowned table with a low hours decent cartridge caught my attention for less than Rega P8 money, I decided to make the move.  Whether it will be better ir even as good as the other options, I do not know, but what was guaranteed withe the Gyro SE was a look and design that I think is amazing.  That alone makes it the  best choice for me - and I have to think that sonically it is in the same league if a bit different in certain ways than any of the others.

So there you have it, the rationale for why I went for the Gyro SE.

I have not owned the 3 cartridges you mention but have heard that the Hana ML would pair well with many turntables. Hope you enjoy your upgrade!

reading your posts and dilemmas, I can only say (not without sarcasm) that I don’t have these problems. Why? Life is waaay simpler at my budget level - below $1500. Mostly a lot below. But I am still happy to learn from you

The use of AI for such Basic Info is ridiculous as a practice.

Three Searches using a AI Search Support, will produce the same CO2 emission a mile Journey will create in a low CC Vehicle either Petrol or Diesel.

I have posted the following in the past: 

"  Those readily adopting the use of AI support as a Internet Search Tool, are usually not informed what the adoption of it means and what a collective adoption of it means.

A Typical Search using a Support such as Google means the search undertaken by an individual has used 0.0003 KWh - 0.2g CO2 Emission.  

A Typical Search using a Support such as Chat CBT means the search undertaken by an individual has used 0.0029 KWh - 68g CO2 Emission. "