How much do you need to spend to get digital to rival analog?

Dear @tzh21y @zalive : """ I have never heard drums, cymbals and overall air sound right on any digital system................................
........as it sounds in say an orchestra hall. """

of course not, you can’t hear it that way not only in digital but in LP neither:

first because you can’t have the live music exprerience in true/real way in any room/home system and second ( between other reasons. ) becdause in a Hall your seat position maybe it’s at 20+ meters from the instrument source where the recording microphones pick-up the same information " seated " at near field: 1m-3m.

Now if you listen cymbals or drums seated at nearfield position and at real SPL those cymbals/drums will crush severely your whole body not only your ears and you can’t stay listened in that stage for more than 5 minutes, maybe less time before you will deaf for the years to come.

Microphones can support SPLs in excess of 130+dbs continuously.

Our ears follow a " protocol ":

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/how-ear-works#top

and all those is only through our ears but we have to remember that we listen through the whole human been body: hair, skin nervous ends, muscle, bones and the like. Body has a lot of resources to listen almost anything. So, both of you as amghister too needs to live the live nearfield experiences with real MUSIC at real SPLs.

Btw, @geoffkait :: """ Tape is a natural medium. It breathes. """

natural medium?, maybe only for you. Breathes? certainly digital shares that characteristics in excess.

So what’s your point down there?, as a fact I don’t care about your answer but I can tell you that casettes is not the issue in this thread. Btw, I still own the Nakamichi 700ZXL:

https://audio-database.com/NAKAMICHI/player/700zx-e.html

beautiful and great vintage machine.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @fleschler : For CDs Denon is more than enough. Please listen the old Gladiator motion picture soundtrack CD ( in a Denon 1600. ) against its today LP counterpart. As other gentlemans posted in this thread we don’t need to listen 4x DSD and the like to " note " the today superiority of digital alternative. I like both alternatives but for a tiny different reasons.

Digital makes many things rigth but one of them is the way it handled the bass range where LPs just falls to handle with the same " true and aplomb ".

R.

Dear @atdavid : Exist a lot of misunderstood about digital operation ( including my self where I'm way ignorant of several " things . ) about
DSD nd PCM DAC operation.

There are several DAC chip manufacturers s: AD, AKM, BB, SABRE and the like.

My humble CDP came from Denon that use BB/TI DAC ( 32/192 ) and this goes around PCM technology but I remember that Denon was one of the few LP recording digital company in the early times. Other was Telarc and latter on Varese Saravande, Chalfont, Delos and more.

Telarc used Soundstream  digital PCM recorder and I own all Telarc recordings where many of them are even today very hard to beat about its quality level performance of the music information in those LP grooves. Not all Telarc are good recordings.

In the case of Denon they designed and builded its own PCM digital recording machine with some " advantages " over the Soundstream standard in those old times.
I know this because I own several Denon PCM LPs where as with Telarc many are first rate recordings and some others not so well . So Denon has a lot of knowledge levels not only for digital recording but how to achieve the best and more from those BB/TI DAC chips.

Almost no one cares a bout Denon as a CDP manufacturer but they know in deep about and they know too what goes around analog because Denon already has deep knowledge levels manufacturing LP analog rig along analog recordings and electronics design too and Denon was side to side with CBS. So they should know something on each single side of overall analog and digital subjects by multiple first hand experiences and skills and its CDP are non-expensive units.

R:

Dear @ronres : ""  If you enjoy and seek the sound analog creates then no amount of money spent on digital will be able to replicate the analog experience.  """

Why do you want to replicate the analog experience that's wrong and different medium where you lost a huge signal amount of information and where adds a lot of non recorded signal information. Digital is truer to the recording to what recording microphones pick-up?: 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-much-do-you-need-to-spend-to-get-digital-to-rival-analog/post?postid=1828665#1828665

@fleschler  , please read that post. Of course that I can be wrongs but those are facts.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @mikelavigne  : ""  and musical connection.. """

obviously ( and not from your last post because I followed yourn posts on the digital vs analog experiences from many years . ) you have a real musical connection with digital, for me it's imposible not to have it even with humble digital hardware.

My listening time goes more to LP than digital and this is more by something that could be a rutinary attitude that other thing because I enjoy a lot digital too.
ASs a fact digital ( in some ways. ) help me to fine tunning my room/system and still does and as better performs my digital experiences as better performs too my analog listenin sessions.

R.

Dear @frogman : First than all I’m not biased to digital, my only compromise is with MUSIC.

Of course we have to understand digital because it’s a totally different media that makes sound as other mediums as LP or tapes: all are different and sounds/performs different.

I posted why playback LP experience can’t ( no matters what. ) preserve and mantain the integrity of the recorded signal.

Now, is you whom could tell us why digital can’t do it .

I like LP/analog and I like digital too. My main home room/system target is to stay nearer to the recording and digital puts any one nearer to the recording when LP/analog puts all of us far away from therejust: COMMON SENSE.

It’s not that what your ears tells you because what your ears tells you is absolutely and totally biased and this biased is something that your brain wall/defender impedes to change it easily.

Btw, have you good common sense or you need measurements on each one degradation levels on those " terribles " steps I explained in my last post? because if you need measurements on it then something wrong with you and forgeret what your ears tells you: this is not the real issue/subject and it does not matters if you are a musician/player or even a music composer. You only have to SEE the reality: what is happening down there.

""" and it doesn’t need to “make sense” ... """ , this is incredible but I respect your rigth to say it.

Sorry, I can’t have a true dialogue with a gentleman with low common sense because you are impliying that all those degradation steps in the playback LP process where information is totally losted, added non-recorded information and the generation of several kind of distortions/resonances and the like does not matters because even all those exist the LP hability playback process to preserve the signal integrity. It should be that way for you can post what you posted.

Anyway, I think that you make your point as I posted mine but at least I gave some " facts " and you gave no single fact on what you posted other than your " ears " but your ears are not part of that common sense I posted: what you like is not the issue, got it?

Emotions?, MUSIC is an ART and as an ART  wake up emotions of different levels in any human been it does not matters that we listen MUSIC through the M.Lavigne system or through a humble Walkman.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @mikelavigne @david_ten @atdavid and friends:

No one here is a stupid person but gentlemans with good common sense and that’s why I invite all of you to read a simple explanation :


"" digital still cannot do the real world dynamics that analog can. and the soul of music is the dynamics. it’s the hard part. """

just forgeret if we are biased one way or the other , I respect that statement but explain nothing on the main digital/analog issue and I don’t agree with. Look:

starting at the recording cutting step and followed by the LP pressing is where starts the true degradation ( step by step ) of the LP recorded signal.

All of us know and even own LP test pressings samples ( expensive ones. ) that if you compare against the " normal " LP differences are not tiny, we can aware of the degradation in the normal LP pressing. After 200 pressings of the same recording that degradation ( maybe before. ) goes in increment.

On that LP pressing and before the LP playback process the LP were pressed with off-center and full of micro and macro waves in its recorded surface that makes a huge degradation to that recorded signal.

Now, during playback process the LP signal has to figth first with the unstability ( short time. ) of TT speed that degrades the recorded signal, after that it has to figth with all the TT micro-vibrations/resonances in the TT that arrives not only at the surface where the LP is seated but through the arm board too. Just before we listen nothing degradation of the signal is there ( no matter what. ).

Then comes the transducer job that’s the foundation of the LP playback technology ( arcaic but it’s what it’s. ).

The phono cartridge must follow the LP grooves modulations ( mimic it. ) and this just is imposible to achieve for any cartridge any where: so here not only exist more signal degradation but the lost of critical signal information that we can’t recovery in any way !!!!.
This cartridge must follow the modulations but each cartridge has different tracking abilities ( betweedn other things by its compliance characteristics. ) where we follow losting signal information but things does not ends here because exist a " natural " tracking error developed by the tonearm shape and this tracking error follows degrading the " soul " but the degradation goes on and on because many feedback resonances/distortions generated at different stages/sources between the TT/cartridge/tonearm: we have a feedback ( degradation-negative. ) from the TT/LP surface in between that the cartridge takes as a groove modulation adding information that just does not exist in the recorded grooves then exist feedback between the cartridge and the headshell with the same kind of added unexistent information and we have to remember too that exist the overall terrible feedback between the tonearm it self and the cartridge.

What next? the cartridge signal now pass through the soldered headshell connectors that are a degradation source and follow the degradation through the tonearm internal wire. Till this moment we are listening nothing yet and the signal is just a charicature of what was recorded. We have to remember too that due to that off-centered LPs characteristic exist signal degradation and where stays all the changes through the LP surface that suffers the VTA and VTF due to those micro and macro LP surface waves??????? !!!!!! and we have to remember all those micro micro jumps by the stylus tip when tracking the groove modulations that are as a car tires on a stones road where not always is in perfect touch and even by ms. does not touch the grooves.

Now the signal goes inside the phono stage and goes inside passing for input connectors and additional cable for the phono stage can work with ( obviously here exist more signal degradation and we follow losting signal and adding non-existent recorded information. ).

What happen inside the phono stage?: exist to main functions on it one is to amplify the carrtridge signal and some times 10K times only in this amplifier step the signal is added of different kind of noises generated by the phono stage gain stages ( not only one stage but more than one only to amplify the signal. ) then the second function that’s that the recorded signal must pass through the inverse RIAA eq. curve that between other things no one can say coicide/mimic the RIAA eq. that comes in the recording ( here exist losted and added information. ) and after that the signal mus pass for output connectors that are soldered and that continue the terrible signal degradation.

I can go on and on with what in reality happens in the LP signal but it’s useless, enough with what we read here.

Now, whom of you still think that through the LP exist that " soul " or those " nuances " that we have in live MUSIC?. How any one of us could think that the whole playback process can preserve the integrity of the very delicated recorded signal information?

Makes sense to you?

Certainly does not makes sense to me.

Soul, nuances and many other adjectives we use exist in our imagination because we want it exist that way. Believe or not we are biased to, it can’t be in other way because we " born " with LP not with digital ( I already explained this. ).

Remember that I’m not talking of what we like but what is happening in reality not what we like or are accustomed to.

Btw, all of us listen ( through our ears-/brain. ) through an ADC.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONs,
R.

Dear friends: @tzh21y is an anti-digital gentleman and I know not only the way he writes the OP but because in other threads for him exist only analog.

Almost all of us here including M.Lavigne are accustomed to analog because is this medium where we startted to listen MUSIC in our home systems and before that through the radio.

Digital was not the medium for us because just did not exist yet. So, our ears/brain are 100% ( like it or not. ) biased to the analog signature sound in home audio systems. I’m too.

That " signature " is for me the key for the main controversies in between digital and analog where the ones that prefer analog just can’t avoid from their brain that " signature " and this " signature " in on control of what we are listening and if something like digital comes wioth diferent " signature " well does not like us as the analog experiences.

@mikelavigne as me and almost all of us are biased to that kind of " signature " and even if we listen through PCM or DSD top resolution digital sound our reaction is that can’t outperforms analog even if in reality it beats analog but our " brain " is a wall/defender of that analog " signature ".

If things be the other way around and I mean that we were accustomed to digital " signature " and suddenly the new medium been analog our brain will do the same: functioning as a wall/defender of that digital " signature ".

No matters what it’s very dificult to listen analog vs digital with out beeen biased to one or the other medium. Both mediums are different but in some ways are alike too.

I don’t own the M.Lavigne system level ( I wish I own it. ) but I can tell any one thet my system has not only good but excellent resolution with very very low distortion levels of every kind where I can appreciated the truly high quality performance of digital medium that in many ways beats analog. But the issue is not if digital is better or not the real issue is that today we can ejoy digital better than ever.

Digital technology is growing up almost every single day ( computers, cell phones, DAC’s and ADC’s, etc, etc. ) when analog stopped to grow up many years ago and can’t really grow up with better quality because LP overall technology just achieved the limits of that technology, easy as that. In the other side several of the problems of digitakl as jitter, aliasing, discontinuty and the like are already solved and improving about.

Like it or not digital will be improved and seems to me that the the digital end is far away from here and today it’s only starting its mature period so the best is forthcoming and the best we can do is to accept things as in reality are.

At the end we are " here " because we want to listen and have the best MUSIC experiences through our room/system with analog and with digital mediums.

Some one in this thread ask for someone that technically could post why LP is better and no one says: I can do it and no one did it because that’s not posible.

The LP playback process " road " is higly tortuose against digital playback process. Here the biggest differences in between both mediums.

I know: " it’s that my " ears " say analog is superior . """ that’s a normal answer due our accustomed ears/brain " signature ".
Not easy to forget that " signature " and this is the problem because almost always that we are listening to digital instead to compare it against live MUSIC event seated at near field position we are comparing vs the LP " signature " ! ! ! , this for me is each one of us mistake.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @tzh21y : """ they do sound very good, I never get the satisfaction that I do when i listen to analog regardless if its a"coloration" or whatever. I will listen to high end digital, and then I soon get bored, as if it just does not have the magic... """

First problem to answer your op question is that you are already biased and accustom to the LP experience and what you are waiting is that digital ( with the same kind of signature than analog. ) can even or outperforms analog and this just can’t happen. Digital is a great alternative to listen music and I’m a music and analog lover too but I like a lot today digital alternative.

Analog and digital are two differents audio worlds where only shares that both " produce " music/sound and that’s all. Other important issue is that digital at playback in your system and due that many kind of system developed distortions are lower than in analog playback your system will " naked " or " severe exposed ( no place to hide those weaks as in LP playback developed higer distortions. ) to the weaks links in that system and maybe you could need to make up-grades on it and this is a good thing because you will have a beter quality performance system for both digital and analog alternatives.

We have to " undersdtand " digital sound and for do that we need a decent digital rig and play with for 2-3 months in a row with out touch in that time LP/analog and after that time return to listen LP and then you will know that why can’t compare apples with oranges but after that you will like digital with out that " boring " and obviously analog.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.