How much do I need to spend to get a preamp that sounds better than no preamp?

@georgehifi "Here is a person you should kneel to as he is one who makes active preamps for a reason which I’ve outlined, yet he is man enough to tell what it is about passives that’s the real deal."

Kudos to Nelson for being man enough.

Speaking of being man enough... As Ralph said you go off like a $5 pistol. I’ll add, routinely. As an example, @georgehifi , you went off half-cocked, and initiated a thread on Stereophile no longer performing measurements even though it was completely incorrect. For the longest time, the myriad (Sam Tellig, Art Dudley, Kal Rubinson, Lisa Astor, and on and on) columns never included measurements as they were subjective writings and meant to entertain and sell magazines. Sometimes, the follow-ups to the more formal reviews also do not include a new set of measurements. If you had an iota of the stones you stand up on your soapbox and claim you have, and within all the time and energy you have chasing down all the things you do, you would have issued a mea culpa. At least, THAT’S what a man does...

Regarding active versus passive preamplifiers, the world is big enough for both of them. I run direct from my digital sources, and have / had and use both active AND passive preamplifiers. All three options have their place, can provide a rewarding experience to the owner, and none is incorrect. I have respect for both you (honestly, you deserve plaudits and more for the Lightspeed) and Ralph in terms of the preamplifier solutions you put forth. But I doubt I’m the only one who feels your showing up in the innumerable threads you have to crap all over the idea of folks wanting / enjoying / needing an active preamplifier to the point of their being wrong / stupid / duped / fraudulent got old a long time ago.

Lastly, I find it beyond unfair to the point of immoral to paint folks like Ralph as someone putting profit before his dedication, belief in the knowledge / experience he’s developed over the past 45 - 50 years, craftsmanship, and overall audio landscape

@georgehifi "BTW: are you a "fuser"?
I think I may have seen you be pro fuses in posts and what "magic" they can do ."

Before we get started on that tangent, you continue to skirt responsibility for your Stereophile mistake. Again, simple question, are you man enough?

I am NOT a fuser. That said, I am NOT anti, either. And though I will take the time to answer your question, specifically, I generally stay out of the discussion, and will continue doing so.

A dozen years ago, a friend from China who sometimes visited, and as a prince of a guest, always bearing gifts, handed me a pack of what appeared as fuses with silver caps and what he claimed a superior wire inside. He stressed their benefit. I thanked him, and after he returned home from his visit, threw the pack in the drawer, and never looked at it since.

So unlike most who enter the debate, I don’t fall into either camp. Honestly, I don’t really care one way or the other. I’m not buying any fuses, nor am I begrudging anyone who does and finds happiness with them. In fact, I feel happy about their improvement. From the incessant back and forth, I think it’s clear jerks exist on both sides of the fence who never tire of arguing, insulting the other side, and posting the same statements ad infinitum. With a few exceptions, I haven’t read a post from either side in months that I found interesting or adding to the debate.

But I do hold out the ** POTENTIAL ** for fuses to improve the sound of a component.

Having worked as a material science engineer / chemist who researched and developed electronic (like conductors and resistors) materials for the household names in this industry like Vishay, Dale, CTS, Ohmite, and on and on, I know small differences in formulations, compositions, manufacture, and treatment can impart meaningful differences in the performance of an end product. For example, though there is a relatively small difference in the percentage of carbon delineating cast iron from steel, we all feel it obvious the end products differ greatly. If I still worked in that field, this whole thing would be very easy to sort out from a purely objective standpoint. I’d buy a bunch of fuses (not at $150 or more, of course), perform a slew of chemical / metallurgical analyses and electrical measurements including scanning electron micrographs, X-Ray diffraction, hot / cold (MILSPEC) thermal cycling, high voltage breakdown, high temperature accelerated aging, etc., measuring resistivity and other factors all the way and comparing them to two or three standard fuses like Bussman, LittleFuse, etc. to find out what, if any differences exist. Or, even if the materials and metallurgical treatments and hence, performance were identical. As I’ve said, I know of no high-end audio company capable of assessing the nature and objective performance of these fuses, though I do feel groups exist within companies that skirt the audiophile realm as part of their infinitely larger businesses otherwise like Samsung, Matushita, Sanyo, Sony could, even if the desire to doesn’t exist.

On the audio and guitar side of power supplies, many have heard and measured the effects of transformers, tube rectifiers, diode rectifiers / bridges, capacitors, resistors, chokes, almost all of which engender very little doubt or debate in terms of their effectiveness. I do find incredibly interesting and even passionate discussion when it comes to topics like Pi filters versus choke input power supplies, grain oriented versus amorphous transformer cores, the myriad alloys used in transformer cores, paper versus plastic transformer bobbins, directly versus indirectly heated rectifiers, the advantages of fast recovery diodes, "better" capacitors and increasing their size, how big a capacitor you can use directly after the rectifier, how many stages of filtering work best, wirewound versus metal oxide resistors, etc. Maybe that’s because so many of the folks involved in this chase spend a good amount of effort measuring, documenting, sharing, and discussing their findings, as opposed to selling something?

It did take a long time for me to get here. As a trivial example, I used to hear a lot about rolling a tube rectifier, and I dismissed all of it. Presuming they both test fine, how or why would one sound different from another? They’re not in the signal path, all they do is rectify the incoming AC. Well, trying different rectifiers made me a believer. They do sound different, and some clearly sound better than others.

However, when folks claim improvements that seem ridiculous, those people come across as just that, ridiculous. For example, an extra octave of bass response. Someone actually believes a fuse can lower the 40 or 50 Hz low-end roll-off of their system to 20 or 25 Hz??? Also, while I don’t push people on measurements, as most lack the capability, ability, and knowledge, I feel it the responsibility of manufacturers (or, are they just sellers?) to spend the time, money, and effort on documenting and making available the reasons their products can provide the sort of improvement that justifies a sale. I realize the guy who posts here 24 / 7 playing the Wizard now flat out recommends no one should provide information or explanation on a tweak they market. As in the other audio discussion forums, his opinion would never be given another thought, folks here actually engage him, and pander to his self-proclaimed guru status. No, what could have provided some meaningful benefit was when the manufacturer of the specific fuse a thread focused on showed up, and instead of actually taking part in a meaningful discussion, or shining any light on the situation, simply said keep calm, carry on, and ignore the other side.

From a distance I think I’m probably not the only one who feels curious as to what these fuses are made of, though not enough to take any action. As I said, if I had access to the equipment of my past, I would uncover that. Perhaps, few would care. I’ve watched over the past 20 years, the concept of value has evaporated from so much of this hobby. I once discovered one of the more well-known interconnect ($1400/meter) and loudspeaker cables of the past as simply a readily available CATV product costing 62 cents a foot. As it stands, I don’t know why people don’t test these fuses in their component. They could take voltage and current measurements, and someone could even look at things through a scope, throughout the power supply, comparing it with a typical fuse.

So in the end, while not a fuser, I’m not an anti-fuser. Given what I’ve experienced with material science and power supplies, I think it’s certainly possible a fuse could improve a component’s sound. In fact, I feel it is REASONABLE. But it’s not something that I think about, worry about, or much care about

@csmgolf "Clearly the answer is no, he @georgehifi is not man enough."
You're right, Cris.  He answered the question clearly.  All he needed to say was that I was mistaken.  Seems as easy as falling off a log, and yet...

Did you notice how he got so flustered he quotes me as responding with a statement I made PRIOR to his fuser question?  He didn't know whether to scratch his watch or wind his butt.
On the positive, he seems to have finally turned into a civilized person here instead of routinely attacking everyone in front of him.  Who knows if it will last, but let's hope, as he's actually an obviously intelligent guy, and the Lightspeed Attenuator a worthwhile technology

@almarg Thank you for your perspective, Al.

As always, you raise an excellent and most salient point in regard to rectifiers.

As I considered what you said, I HAVE noticed the differences between types ("normal diodes" vs HexFred, 5AR4 vs 5U4 vs 5R4 vs 5Z3 vs 5Y3 vs...) far more prominent than variations within those types. I’m sure no one will say that’s noteworthy. While I have clearly observed the differences in voltage drop between them, I now realize I’ve been a bit too sloppy to not have more carefully measured the variation within a type. Thank you for providing a new rabbit to chase down!

Difficult question, I admit, and you could maybe just chalk it up to tubes in general, and why folks compete for valued ones, but do you have any opinions on why different tube rectifiers of the same type exhibit not much difference in performance, yet such wildly different tone? By that I mean, even friends who love to tell me, "Oh, I could never have a decent system because I’m just not good enough to ever be able to hear the differences..." can easily discern changing out a Sovtek vs Shuguang vs JJ vs Mullard 5AR4

@almarg superlative perspective, and as always, sage advice.
Thank you, Al

@atmasphere "As per usual, George omits the rest of Nelson's words **after** the quote he usually trots out. I've included more of that text above, seems to me not for the first time on this thread."

Looks like @csmgolf  (Cris) found the perfect description to how @georgehifi plays the game, cherry picking.

And as clearly seen, his other dirty trick is ignore questions by raising the issue of the other side being a fuser, snake-oilist, etc.  Then, he can dismiss that person out of hand, on anything audio and everything else in life, forever.  However, trying that with Cris and myself, George only exposed his own ploy as neither of us fall into any of those descriptions