How important is it for you to attain a holographic image?

Maplegrove, without a doubt, panel speakers are the best for holography; that's because they're "dipole". While this is true, they lack a certain "solidity"; I have the best of both worlds, mine are custom speakers that combine a heil airmotion transformer, which is dipole, with a 6 inch and a 12 inch driver.

A crossover engineer was required to get this to work. I don't recommend it, nor would I ever do it again, because it has taken years of fine tuning to get it just right for my ears, but that's the price for a trip to paradise. (if I had to replace them, it would be with panel speakers)

Do you remember the "Amazing Carver" speakers? I liked them too.


Happy listening, and Happy New Year.

Yes rvpiano, they are; "Special mastering has been used to produce the best monaural quality from available tape with the feeling that the understanding and enjoyment of the music takes precedence over technology".

Although this is in "Mono", there is an incredible presence and realism to the music; the musicians are in your listening room, one at a time when they solo.

Fleschler, just for you, I searched until I found a "Mono" of some of my favorite music; "The Clifford Brown Quintet" featuring Max Roach, Harold Land, Richie Powell, and George Morrow on bass; with Clifford Brown on trumpet of course.

This music was recorded at Capital Studios, Los Angeles, 1954; Although it's in "Mono" the recording quality is fantastic, but it's in "Mono"; that means one big fat center channel spread across my rear wall.

I'm glad your rig is producing holographic sound with a Mono record, mine isn't.

"Audio Holography" is nothing more than stereo taken to it's highest level; it's not something different. Using our vision as an analogy, whatever is on the disc or record, is what we're looking at. Two eyes that visualize everything from a slightly different perspective, is what gives the world depth and dimension.

Two speakers projecting slightly different views of the same sound, when perfected; meaning everything in the audio chain is of a very high quality, produce a visual image of the audio. While the gear produces a perfect image, the room distorts this image by not reflecting all the sound waves symmetrically. Trial and error will get us in the ballpark, but since we can not see sound waves, we need professional help, or professional measuring gear in order to perfect the sound stage with room treatment.


We have identified the elusive holographic sound stage, and since it was a team effort, I think it has been defined to everyone's satisfaction.

Each time we upgrade our rigs, we are moving in the direction of "holography" whether we realize it or not. However, it's only when we actively pursue room treatment, are we actively pursuing "Holography".

Prof, not only have you identified a "holographic soundstage" but you have one; a rose by any other name is still a rose.

Flesschler, in regard to the music, I listen to a lot of "Blue Note" jazz recorded by RVG. That has absolutely nothing to do with holography, but everything to do with the content and quality of the music; holography happens when it happens depending on the record.

I have no idea what we have to agree to disagree about. While most certainly you will not get holography with less than high quality speakers, the size of the speakers are dependent on the size of your room. "holography" is a function of the speakers, the amp, the pre-amp, the turntable, the cartridge, (or CD player), and last but not least, "the room". All of these items must function as one unit; there is no magic "holography button" on the speakers or the rest of the components required to deliver good sound.

I play music the same as someone with a one box rig; what I want to hear at any given moment without any regard for holography.

The biggest perk in my rig is the acquisition of a new collection; meaning the music I acquired 50 years ago is fresh, sparkling, and new.

Since you must have everything else that is desirable in a rig before you can get to "holography", I say it is the most desirable because you can not get to holography before you get to everything else.



gpgr4blu said;


Holographic imaging is not the be all and end all of audio. But when your system has excellent timbre, texture, pace and dynamics---and then you tune it in to the nth degree (speaker placement/room treatments) --it can result in holographic imaging which, to me, is musical heaven.




"Holographic imaging" is the result, for me, of 30 years hard labor that will be complete after I get professional room treatment. It is the "result", not a single item in and of itself, like tone or timbre, but the result of every component functioning as one unit to deliver heavenly music to your specifications.

"My own experience suggests your claim is incorrect. I have heard plenty of systems do some incredible dimensionality and soundstaging while sounding to my ears bereft of convincing instrumental timbre, or dynamics, or other traits."


Since "holography" requires the best electronics, and speakers set up by professionals, that statement lacks credibility.



"Therefore someone who chooses a system that does not do everything exactly as YOU want it is not by default desiring some coloration akin to a smiley faced eq. It may simply be that they have chosen their own set of compromises where the system has better fidelity either to some aspect of the source or to the qualities of live music that another system doesn’t do as well."


There are as many ways to "holography" as there are ways to get from you're house to Chicago. I never specified any specific system.

If you don't want a good system, I have no problem with that; however you want to define a good system is fine with me.

Newbee, I was listening to "Black Widow" by Lalo Schifrin, and discovered this record was quite holographic. While it's not a special record in regard to exclusivity (it's quite common) it is special in regard to music and recording quality.

Lalo Schifrin is also quite special; he has done a lot of excellent work for the movie industry.

In the evening, I settle back and listen to music the same as someone with a one box record player; it's all about the music; we might even be listening to the same music. That was meant to clarify any and all misconceptions.


Enjoy the music.

Newbee,  you are absolutely correct.  I simply listen to music (all of it has depth and air, the fringe benefit of having sought "holography"), and revel in it when the recording reveals such.

When I hear this revealed to the extent of being able to visualize the artist in three dimensional space, I will make a note of it, and post it on this thread; it might take a few days.

"I like what sounds good to me". That seems to be a reasonable comment. Let me tell you where it leads. In the late 70's, "graphic equalizers" were the rage; my preamp had "turnover tone controls"; they doubled your ability to control bass and treble, plus I had a "dynamic range expander", that flashed a tiny red led when it was operating.

Has anyone visited a fun house with the funny mirrors? You know the one's where you're tall and skinny in one, short and fat in another, watermelon head in the next one, and on and on....

We did this with our music; not enough bass; no problem, slide them sliders, flip that turnover tone control switch; don't quit until it "sounds good to me".

What was the artist trying to say? "I didn't know that was important; what I want to hear is more important; after all, I'm paying the cost to be the boss."

Without realizing it, we were distorting the music to such an extent that it would have been unrecognizable to the artist who created it.

Back to the music and the artist; he or she spent their entire lives in an effort to learn music, and say what they wanted to say with music, the same as a writer. Would you buy a book and rewrite it? But it's OK to mess with what someone considers their work of art.

"To be, or not to be, that is the question"?

Now that I have described what I don't want, I'll get to what I do want;
 
—- “Without a shadow of a doubt, the most desirable aspect of high end audio is "The Holographic sound stage",”

I stand by that statement 100%, because if you're trying to get to the bottom of the pool you have to pass through the first three feet. If you're trying to get to the top of the building, you have to travel past the first three floors. (but not if the pool is only two feet deep, or it's only a two story building)

Since whether you know it or not; it is 100% impossible to get holography without having the other desirable elements of audio; just as it is impossible to get to the bottom of a 10 foot deep pool without going through the first three feet, or get to the top of a tall building without going past the first three floors.

Michael, I'm not very far away from "My musical heaven", and once I get there, I don't think I'll have much time left to post here or anywhere else.

Michael, no matter how many times you take these horses to the water, you can not make them drink.

Time, time, and time again, I explained that "Holography" is the end result of all the things they have mentioned, plus taking it to another level of refinement.

I don't believe they've even heard good holography, based on their comments. They don't stand a chance of creating it because they don't really know what it is; their comments remind me of the blind man describing an elephant. Some of the comments are as ridiculous as having a boat without a bottom, but since we are discussing what you hear as opposed to what you see, they don't realize that.

They're responses are because we no longer have "high end emporiums" where they could walk in and hear high end gear set up in a proper manner, in a proper room, with "audiophile" salespeople who could answer their questions.

I first heard music so life like that the artists seemed to be visible; I wanted to go up on the stage and kiss Carmen McRae. This was in 1990; today is 12/30/2018; I have been working to duplicate what I heard since the first day I heard it; now I'm working on the finishing touches to the room, which will require professional expertise.

"Holographic sound" is the end of a very long journey; it’s not a button on a preamp that reads "Holographic sound".

It’s for certain that you can’t get it when you don’t know what it is, and even then, not every recording delivers "Holographic sound", but if your "system" can deliver holographic sound, you can bet it delivers whatever else is on that recording.

I refer to "system" because I am speaking of an organic whole thing in which the room is a very important component that requires a considerable amount of expertise that may require outside help. Although I’m a retired electronics technician, quite capable of dealing with the equipment, "the room" was outside of my field of expertise. (it’s no wonder no one wants "Holographic sound")

The components required are no less than grade "B" as ranked by Stereophile; sorry "mid fi" will just not make the grade.

I refer to "Holographic sound" as a long journey, because you have to know "intimately" what each and every component in your rig is contributing to the whole; that requires a considerable amount of audio education and study, not to mention days of "critical" listening, which means not listening to the music, but focusing on frequency response, or transparency.

After you have acquired the necessary components, and gone over everything twice, it’s still not quite there; it’s "lopsided".

Back to the drawing board; "Why does the left channel sound louder than the right channel ?"

The answer to that question can take months to discover, and after the answer is found, the solution to the problem can take even longer to solve; no wonder there are so many who don’t want "Holographic sound".

Without a shadow of a doubt, the most desirable aspect of high end audio is "The Holographic sound stage", and we see here, so many people don't want it. "Talk about the fox and the grapes"; this is the best example I have ever witnessed.

Rvpiano, why would you think I was speaking to you? I didn't address you specifically.

You can not achieve anything from a record if it's not there; if you do, there is something wrong with your record player.

Realism is not oversold, but it is very hard to achieve; however, here we have more green grapes.

Erik-squires; "1. Smooth FR. One that does not call attention to itself, but feels effortless in dynamic range and endless to the edges in the bass and the treble.

2. Transparency. To me, what I mean is the aural equivalent of standing on a mountain top, and realizing you can see for miles farther than you ever could."

Do you realize that it is impossible not to have these things, and at the same time to have "holography".

Everything everybody mentioned that is more important to them than "Holography" is included in holography; that is, unless you want exaggerated bass, or exaggerated dynamic range, that's not included in holography; only what is on the CD or tape, or record is included in holography.

Maybe this link will help those who have never experienced holography, to understand it.


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoscope


A "stereo image" is recorded in audio, exactly the same as this visual image; when it's done right, a visual image of the audio will be displayed; if and only "if" you have a room that will precisely reflect audio in a manner that can recreate the recorded image. If, and only if, your audio equipment can recreate every detail that is on the recorded medium, like a Zeiss lens can recreate the image of a picture that is taken.

Since the "holographic image" includes every minute detail that is on the recorded medium, nothing in high end audio is more desirable.

 

Chris, you can tell by the responses that since they've never heard it, and never had it; they really don't know what it is.

We can talk about an elephant all day long, but until you have actually seen one up close and personal, you only have a vague concept of what an elephant is.

Ladies and gentleman, boys and girls; a "holographic image" is what "everyone" in high end audio is striving for; it's not a separate entity, but what "automatically" occurs when you have it altogether, but not before.

it only occurs when you have top notch high end equipment. I'll give you an example of this; me and the fellows; me being the resident customer, and they being the salesmen, were grooving mightily to Santana "Abraxas", on a lineup of top of the line ARC electronics, that even included the CD player, plus, the best Thiel speakers, when a real customer came in and requested to audition a Rotel amplifier.

Before that occurred, I was focusing on the organ; it was isolated like I've never heard it before or since; this was on the cut "Incident at Neshabur";


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-s2uFgMRjA


Can you dig it?


We were all seated in the small auditioning theater just grooving; that's when not a word is spoken, and each person is off in his own private inner sanctum; that holographic image with the individual instruments right in front of you will do it; put you out there where you want to be.

"And then the doorbell rang"; it was a customer who wanted to audition a Rotel Amp; when his request was honored, the soundstage collapsed. Nothing else had changed, but no more holographic soundstage; a chain is no stronger than it's weakest link.

That sums up a "holographic soundstage".

N80, mentally, I will never settle; it's just that my bank account has put the brakes on.

You guys are funny; while you're enjoying what you have, your subconscious is reaching for the grapes; "I wonder how I can get better bass", or some other refinement.

n80, I walked into my first high end salon in 1990, and it took me 25 years to reach the grapes; the grapes are a "holographic sound stage"; when you get that, all else is in place, it depends on everything working together.

Never quit trying to reach the grapes; we're "audiophiles", reaching for sweet audio grapes is what we do.

n80, it's for sure you can't miss what you never had. Unfortunately, those high end salons no longer exist that presented you music in a fashion that you had never heard before, but once you heard, there was no putting that Genie back in the bottle; you had to have it.

As I stated before, at those shows with the worlds best audio, I doubt if anywhere had a good holographic image because of the numerous requirement in addition to the equipment that are required. The salons had the rooms, and audio fanatics who could put it altogether.

The bottom line is the music, and not the equipment; having the music that makes you happy is most important.

Romeo, many important discoveries have been made by accident; I'm happy that you are enjoying holography at last, now you can enjoy each artist independently.

Some of the responses remind me of the fox and the grapes, if any of you remember that fable; after not being able to reach the grapes, he decided they were green. It took me years to get a holographic sound stage, but when I got it, I knew I had arrived.

Not only does it require knowledge, but top notch components as well.

"There are many who pretend to despise and belittle that which is beyond their reach."


While a holographic sound stage is not beyond anyone's reach that has responded to this thread, it does require knowledge and effort.

I feel sorry for audiophiles who are younger than me, and that includes just about everybody.

When I was getting my audiophile act together, I spent so much time at high end salons, that my wife swore I was seeing another women; no way would she believe that I would spend most of the day until late in the evening listening to audio equipment, but I was totally spellbound by these incredible 3D sounds; not only could you hear the performer, but it seemed that they were invisible, and in the room.

This was top of the line equipment that I couldn't afford, and a lot of what I heard, I still can't afford, but I remember the sound, and that's what's important; that way, you know what it is that you are after.

Not until you hear top of the line equipment in perfectly treated rooms will you believe what is possible. Not even with the same identical equipment at audio shows, can they duplicate what I heard, because the don't have the time and the room. They spent great effort on the most minute details in these "high end salons", and that's how they achieved such spectacular results.

Words can not describe what the best components together sound like; you have to hear it for yourself, and the "high end salons" gave you that opportunity, you knew what the best and most expensive sounded like even if you couldn't afford it.

Here is something I accomplished that may help you a little; while I was going to those salons, I decided to rate "Stereophile's" rating system; was it valid or invalid; I pronounced it valid; when I evaluated the equipment they had rated, I came to the same conclusion. Although if a component is on that line where it barely made "A" or "B", that can be an iffy situation, and they explain it.

Without going to audio shows, this forum and audio magazine ratings are all you have to rely on.

Source is Marantz 8260 CD player, or, tweaked to the bone RP3, Grado Master 2 cartridge, followed by an Audible Illusions Modulus 3A that feeds Primaluna monoblocks.

I have custom 3 way speakers that utilize a Heil AMT; they're dipole; this helps the holographic sound stage.

My listening room has a vaulted ceiling, the speakers are 4 feet from the front wall and 2 feet from the side walls.

Now that it's winter, all is perfect; let me explain that; the left wall is a sliding glass door to the patio; that's not good. However, since it's winter, I have that door covered over with light insulation; consequently, no more sliding glass door, but a wall of insulation that makes the room perfect.

I consider what I have to be the ground floor of a good holographic image. I will be glad to answer any question you have.

For me, there has been nothing more important; when it appeared in my listening room, I knew everything else was together.

It is impossible to get a good holographic image without top notch electronics, that let me know that I not only had high end components, but high end sound as well.

While it varies from record to record, the essence of depth and 3D is always there.