Hi Audiogalore,
I'm glad I was able to help. You are exactly right!
With the Squeezebox used as the Front-End the sound was abysmal and with the Logitech Transporter leading the way as the Front-End the sound was phenomenal, even though both front-ends were hooked up to a top-notched DAC, during the shootout.
Rich |
Hi Jglim,
Quote from Jglim: "From my reading of other people's reviews (no personal experience with transporter myself), the use of the transporter seems to outperform a DAC in the 2-3K region."
In my experience this has not been the case. As stated above, I feel that although the Transporter DAC was no slouch and it may certainly be considered pleasing, it was not able to outperform the $1000 Benchmark DAC1, nor the $2500 Bel Canto DAC3.
In other words, I feel that the Dac in the Transporter is good enough to allow an audiophile who doesn't own an external DAC, to live with it happily for a year or so, until they may be able to upgrade to a stand-alone DAC.
However, when the Transporter was used as a stand-alone Transport, I felt that although it lost the shootout, it did hold it's own against the 10 times more expensive MBL 1621A Transport.
I hope that helps you.
Rich |
Hi Guys:
I definitely do not feel hijacked as a matter of fact I thank Rick sharing his fact finding and comparisons of the two units. Whom better, the MSL 1611F DAC is top shelf Stereophile A rated piece.
I have a saying "garbage in garbage out" what I truly mean, is the sources used the SB and the transporter are exposed with the proper cabling and D/A converter. With a sub-standard DAC the garbage in theory does not show the total suspect and the comparison is not as widely noticeable.
Again thank you for your support on this issue Rick. I will now seek out a transporter to replace my SB3.
|
You're Welcome!
If you select the Volume Control to Maximum, then this should essentially have the same exact effect as stated above, be sure not to blow out your desktop speakers when switching back and forth.
Hopefully, Audiogalore won't view this as a hijack, because he also raised some interesting questions and he also had some similar concerns.
Rich |
I forgot one setting. I also have BOTH the Default Output and System Output: set to Built-In Digital Output, but then your computer speakers may not play, unless you have an external DAC in between your computer speakers. To set the Digital Volume to Maximum, more permanently you must also select: DEFAULT OUTPUT as Built in Digital Output and to get external speakers to play without a DAC you will probably need to set, System Output to: Built-in Line Output.
My external speakers work with both Default Output and System Output set to Built-in Digital Output, because I have a Benchmark DAC in between my MAC and Computer Speakers.
Sorry, if any of the above settings are incorrect, but It's quite confusing to convey the settings, so maybe somebody else could find the website that better explains the settings.
Also make sure that you have the latest version of iTunes, and Squeeze Center, and make sure that your EQ settings in iTunes are turned off. I'm also using the Apple Lossless Format for Redbook and the Songbird Jukebox for the MAC with FLAC format for my 24bit/96khz files, since iTunes can't handle these, then you have to point your Squeezecenter Program to the appropriate High Def Music Folder where you stored your High Def, Songbird Music Files.
But as stated above you're right the Squeezebox is not very good, however, I continue to recommend the Squeezebox to non-audiophile friends and family, however if you're reading this, than you will most definitely enjoy the Transporter.
Rich |
wow, great post rich! thanks for your efforts and this begins to answer some of the questions i had about the sb limitations even in the digital domain. so it sounds like the transporter, with a good digital cable and power cord (which i would be using an mit digital reference rca for now and an mit oracle ac1 power cord) is head and shoulders above the sb. i will be investing in a decent xlr digital cable if i switch to a source that has the output, most likley mit also.
regarding the volume control, i use windows and just keep the computer volume fixed at 100.
thanks again rich and don't mean to hijack the thread audiogalore... |
Hi Guys,
I haven't listened to the Squeezebox 3 in my main rig for about 1 year and at that time I was using a Bel Canto DAC3 with the Transporter for the comparison, so this morning I hooked the Squeezebox up to my MBL 1611F DAC using a $40 optical monster cable, that I had borrowed from my MacPro and the Transporter was sporting a Kubala-Sosna 110 ohm AES/EBU Digital Cable and a Zu Audio Bok power cable.
I'm sure that we have all read the same threads claiming that the Squeezebox is as good as the Transporter is, if you're using an external DAC. Well, gentleman, after listening to the squeezebox this morning through some very expensive gear, I'm hear to say that you're both right, the squeezebox sounds terrible. In audiophile terms the squeezebox is lacking in; resolution, transparency, ambience, dynamics, harmonics, decay and PRAT and it's not even close. The Transporter blew the Squeezebox out of the water just like the shark was blown out of the water in the first Jaws Movie. So, this is what the Transporter is capable of when using an upgraded power cable and a high quality balanced digital interconnect.
So to be fair, I then used the cheapo monster cable hooked up to the MBL DAC and the Transporter just to see how much of the difference was attributed to the Cable and how much was attributed to the the different streamers. Well, let me tell you that the audiophile improvements followed the Transporter however, not nearly to the same degree while using the Kubala Digital Cable. I would also like to point out that the optical monster cable is terrible, however I didn't have a long enough 75ohm Digital SPDIF cable to reach all of the equipment in question.
I could also tell you that, you will be further rewarded when using a high quality balanced digital 110 ohm cable and upgraded power cable. In the past, I have also had great results with the relatively inexpensive ZU Audio Ash 110 ohm AES/EBU digital cable.
There is a website that talks about the Audio MIDI setup for the MAC and iTunes, which I will look for. But the consensus is that you must have the Digital Volume on your MAC fixed at the Maximum Volume. So, go into your MAC Applications folder, click on the Utilities folder, then click on the Audio MIDI Setup, then choose the Audio Devices tab, then under the PROPERTIES FOR pulldown; select built-in Digital Output, then under Audio output on the bottom right side, I have selected source: Digital Out, 96khz 2ch-24bit, (keep in mind that these format settings are only as good as the quality of your source music files) I believe your settings for DEFAULT OUTPUT AND SYSTEM OUTPUT, should be Built-in Line output if you have external speakers hooked up to your MAC.
These settings will fix your Volume Control to max, so that you will not clip any digital bits with the MAC's digital volume control. You have to restart iTunes for these settings to take effect.
Let me know how it goes.
Rich |
From my reading of other people's reviews (no personal experience with transporter myself), the use of the transporter seems to outperform a DAC in the 2-3K region. It is probably a bit unfair to compare it to the weiss combo as it is a lot more costly and retrieves details that leaves a lot of lower end CD players behind as well.
My disappointment was with the inability to stream music via the SB3 that in theory should have significant advantage over any cd player that has to do real time reading of disc and error coding. |
jglim...that would be a pricey solution (the weiss dac) and out of my range at this point but the transporter is within reach. i just wonder how much f an upgrade it would be. i have gotten allot of conflicting input regarding transporter dac vs theta+sb vs theta + transporter vs external dac...tough choice with all the options. i just know i am not satisfied with the sound i am getting with my sb + theta... |
Hi Richard,
I have people telling me that the Weiss Minerva DAC is a good device to consider, which allows output via firewire from the MAC to the DAC. But at just under $5000 its a pretty expensive option especially for those of us who already own a good DAC. The transporter is also not cheap and if used purely for streaming seems to be wasting the DACs in it.
So I too am still looking for a good solution to replace my CD transport but not my DAC. |
this is a great thread and mirrors kind of where i am at in the process. jglim's description above of the congestion from his sb3 is similar to what i get running digital out from sb duet to theta casanova. because of this, i have been considering upgrading to the transporter or another dac. i think it is just the limitations of the sb. i do have a pretty revealing system.
rich-were you stating the digital out of the transporter is significantly better than the digital out on the sb? |
Would appreciate your advice on the settings of the itunes and MIDI. Did not realise that this could affect the sound. The big difference I am getting on SB3 vs my dedicated CD player is the loss of ambience and space. Playing jazz at the pawnshop through the CD player, I get all the cues that it is a live recording in a fairly large venue. On the SB3, it sounds like its recorded in a soundproof room. |
I will definitely say that the Transporter should not disappoint you, and yes it is close to some of the best transports available, as I've stated above in comparing it to the MBL 1621A transport.
I do not have any anti-jitter devices and I am getting phenomenal sound out of my current setup. I suspect that you may have some incorrect settings in your MAC Audio MIDI Setup or your iTunes setup. Furthermore the Transporter is much better than the Squeezebox, especially when using a balanced AES/EBU 110 ohm Digital Interconnect.
As it's getting late tonight, 2:30AM in NY, I will be happy to discuss this with you further, tomorrow.
Have a good night,
Rich |
Hi Rick
I was just writing on another thread that the Squeezebox 3 vs my Weiss Jason CD player into my Weiss Medea was very disappointing. Some people have suggested using an antijitter device between the computer and DAC. Have you found the Transporter to be equivalent to a high end CD player? |
Hi Rick:
Thank you for that detail reply, IMO I have audiophile grade power,interconnects and speaker cable as posted on audiogon.
I am a firm believer having a quality DAC pulls everything together. The most important part of the audio chain is the transducers, then the source than tweaking the balance of the system. I agree that the Red book CD at a handsome price does sound better. However I must admit the ease and comfort at endless hours enjoying a properly setup music server allows you more involvement.
I have recently also downloaded some HDTrack HI-RES 96/24 and found the sound very liquid with a quietness and more air between the nodes of the given listening musical piece, even in 48/24 through the SB3. I had considered the PSAudio PWD, previously mentioned, but after carefully thinking the process over, I really like my present setup and I think I am going to seek a transporter using my TRI-VISTA 21. |
Hi Audiogalore,
I have a Logitech Transporter and it has a good DAC, but not a great DAC. The sound may be described as a bit analytical as you've mentioned above. Although I have never listened to the Tri-Vista DAC, I doubt that the Logitech DAC will satisfy you, especially since you're use to listening to a tubed DAC. I have compared the Transporter DAC to a Benchmark DAC1 and a Bel Canto DAC3. I preferred the Bel Canto, then the Benchmark and then the Transporter. All comparisons were done using Apple Lossless files.
However, I will still wholeheartedly recommend that you consider purchasing the Transporter to use as your Music Streamer, as it is a big step up from the squeezebox which I also own, and especially since the Transporter will natively handle 24Bit/96Khz, which the squeezebox will not.
The Transporter is a great front end for the money, especially when hooked up to an external DAC. I'm currently using an MBL 1611F DAC, that can handle 24/192. I recently downloaded a few test tracks at 24/96 that sound amazing. I certainly plan on expanding my 24/96 collection, heavily in the next few months.
For what it's worth, I also compared the MBL 1621A transport to the Logitech Transporter and although the MBL 1621A was clearly better and 10 times the price, it certainly wasn't embarrassing for the Logitech, nor was it worth me getting up off the couch to change songs every few minutes. I would equate the sonic difference to, upgrading your stock power cables to high-end power cables.
Rich |
Thank you Shazam for your feedback, I also heard that the transporters DAC sound was more analytical. I have a Tri-Vista 21 tube DAC that I like very much and find it very musical. I guess I was hoping to have both worlds using the Logitech also as a stand alone DAC with the digital input to my Mark Levinson 37 transport. Than it would be ideal and I could replace it with my present TRI-Vista 21.
The PSAudio PWD with the generous $1000.00 trade in offer seem great. However after some research on that device, I found that the features are great but the benefits less.
1) The bridge will not be wireless and for me that is very important.
Good Luck with the PWD when it arrives. |
That is just the point and thank you for your opinion, however I would appreciate some feed back and hear experiences and thoughts that would lead me to that direction. Like you rightfully said it could be a hassle trying to have Logitech to take back product. So that being said is the reason were it would be nice hearing some experience. |
When I tried it, the characteristics of the DAC in the Transport fell on the refined side with good detail. While I think it performed quite well, I prefer a more vivid sound and went with a modified PS Audio since almost all my digital collection is redbook. If you are willing to shell out an extra couple grand, you can get the output moded by Modwright with a tube stage. I heard it at RMAC and it was superb, but out of my price range at the time. That said, I just plunked down my deposit on the new PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC - which is essentially the same thing as the Transporter once the bridge is added. Again, I prefer the more vivid nature of PS Audio products and am getting good money on my trade in. All things being equal, the performance of the Transporter was exceptional in my opinion. Here is the stereophile review if you want more detail. |
logitech offers a 30 day money back guarantee on the transporter. just do a head to head in your own system so you don't have to rely on other's opinions. it might be a bit of a hassle to have to ship it back, but you'll gain firsthand knowledge which is far more valuable. |
