How do tell when my stylus is too much worn?

Dear @aspens  : Only a small group of audiophiles own true accurate and high resolution home audio systems and if they have its own proved full evaluation system could be the only way that by listening way canbe aware of a worn cartridge stylus in the 500-800 hours of playing range.

The massive other audiophiles have " average " resolution systems where is impossible to be aware off.

In the other side no one of us, normal audiophiles, are true experts to say through any kind of microscope if a stylus tip alredy started to walk in the degradation stylus tip proccess to make very small/tiny damages to our LPs. So your advice to send the cartridge to a true expert is the real alternative about.

Our opinion on that regards that we can do it or that the stylus tip in a top LOMC cartridge can have a life of over 2k hours makes no sense because there are true evidence is not that way.

One thing is the stylus life span and other : after how many hours the stylus tip starts to damage our LPs and here we are talking exactly on that: when starts to make the damages it does not matters if we are or not aware by listening tests about.

The fact is that makes a damage. What any one of us can think against it is totally useless and as you said those LPs are not mines or yours.

We can think whatever but we can't change the fact only because we think in a different way.

At the end all is up to each one of us about. If any one of us think that true experts like Ortofon, Shure or Jico and others are wrong be that way, that does not make any damage/harm to no one but him.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.



 

Dear @aspens  : Ortofon published its scientific research about in its site and suddenly dissapeared but was there where for the very first time I learned that at 500 hours of play the stylus tip will starts to make damages in the LP records even that we can't be aware of that damage.

In those all times I posted several times that any cartridge must be rettiped as long as 800 hours of playing time or maximum 1K and every body told me that's was a " crazy " statement because the manufacturers states at least 2K and so no one cares really about.

Not many time ago a gentleman with a Lyra Atlas started a thread because his cartridge was not running with the excellent quality performance he was accustom to. Many Agoners posted their opinions what he needs to do to try fix the problems. 
His cartridge was over 1K hours and I posted that the overall problem was at the stylus tip but he and the other Agoners just all disagree with my post and one of their posts told something like: " M.Fremer Atlas sampler has over 1.5K hours and he reported no single problem ".

Time latter the Atlas owner looks how the stylus tip not only was worn but broken and that cantilever stylus tip is second to none.

No matters what and what the cartridge manufacturers say and if we want to preserve in better condition our beloved LPs and we want to have a " steady " high quality level performance for any and I mean it: ANY cartridge we must to retip between 500-800 hours no matter what.

Many of us are not aware of the stylus " problems " because our home audio system has not a good overall resolution or our ears gone/goes " accustomed "  to the sound and maybe we have not a in deep evaluation proccess to check time to time the listening experience with our cartridges, a proccess that at least needs to have 10-12 recording tracks with different LPs that we know perfectly what we are listening even its click/pops kind of tone. With out this kind of evaluation proccess is almost imposible to evaluate not only the stylus level performance but nothing else. We need that knowlege level.

We can think that MF has that knowledge level but if you read his reviews he always is listening through the review different LPs almost never listening the same LPs with the same LP tracks ! " and he is a " professional reviewer ".

500-800 playing hours is the retip time, no matter what.

Of course this is my opinion only the ONE important is what  all of you think about.

Btw, thank's for your links very useful and leave no " land " to any dude or arguments against it because the research was made it by cartridge manufacturers true EXPERTS not audiophiles or music lovers like us.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R

Dear @don_c55 : Yes,but M97 came with different stylus shape and inside the shape different dimension. They came: conical, two different ellipthical and hiperellipthical too.

Anyway, microridge or replicant or VDH2 goes deeper in the grooves and this helps in the quelity of listen levels. Of course that with today stylus shape the cartridge parameters for the set up has no " margin " to error if we want top quality performance levels.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @don_c55 : "  I have old records played many times on cheap old MM cartridges from the early 70’s that sound "mint" with expensive properly setup MC cartridges of today. "

in those old times cartridge stylus tip was conical that let the deep information recorded in the grooves " untouchable " , so are as " new " and with line contact shapes that information comes alive for the very first time. Yes, LP surface is resistent to the stylus tip very hard friction. Now, that for whatever reasons we are not aware either the stylus tip wear levels or LP surface damages does not means is happening each time we use that cartridge and any LP.
My take is to try stay " always " in a safe umbral.

Btw, @boxer12, I listen both sourcves but a little more on analog. I own 100+ MM/MC cartridges and normally I don't stick with one of them but more rotating . I still own cartridges that I never tested yet.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @don_c55 / @czarivey / @boxer12: The issue is " deeper " than manufacturer specs or what we think and experienced about.

Many years ago Ortofon published what they found out on the stylus tip wear. They make several tests and declared that the diamond tip starts to shows ( under microscophic. ) tiny signs of wear just after 250 hours when LP are well cleaned as the stylus tip. They did it ( if I remember ) with 3 different stylus tip shapes where the line contact " suffers " a little higher signs of wear.

In the past with vintage cartridges no manufacturer that I can remember spoke on 2K hours or more even not 1K hours and many of them spoke on those 500 hours and the stylus tip diamond ( as material ) was not different on the newer cartridge designs.

Now, we have think on the turtouse road and very high friction/forces generated between each LP groove and the really tiny tiny stylus tip surface that are in contact.
It’s true that diamond is at the top of the mohs scale: 10 for harness but even this is not " immune " to wear.

In the other side and at microscopic levels that’s where everything is happening during playback: a " tiny " scracht in the LP grooves it shows it for the stylud tip a if that " deformation " been the Everest mountain and needs to " figth " against it. The LP surface have macroscopic and microscopic scratches and other kind of " anomalies " that for the stylus tip is a serious obstacule where sometimes the stylus tip looks one of those anomalies as if was a big stone of 1 ton.

Over that LP surface is full of dust and it does not matters how well we cleaned the LP. Exist microscopic dust that we can't see it. As a fact it’s in the room enviroment and is attracted my static or just gravity inside the grooves. This kind of dust degrade the stylus tip life and certainly the grooves integrity.

Ok, we can’t hear or be aware of that kind of damage and what we listen is fine, we don’t listen any kind of " aberration " during the cartridge tracking job.
This is influenced by what @rrm/OP posted:

""" I suspect that the change would be so gradual that it might be hard to tell, as the ear slowly accomodates. """

and maybe because the room/audio system has not the level of resolution for we can be aware of.

If our target is to have and stay with the very high quality levels in our room/audio system then my advise is not wait over those 800 hours to re-tip the cartridge.
I think that 500-600 hours is what we have to take in count.

As I posted that is me but as always with any audio subject is up to you.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISORTIONS,
R.

Dear @rrm: 800 hours? looks not excessive. Now, manufacturer can tell us that stylus tip can goes over 1K hours or even 2K hours.

Now, the stylus tip degradation can be faster when LP's are not well cleaned and when the stylus tip is used not well cleaned or both. These accelerates the stylus tip damage.

My take with any stylus tip is to re-tip after or near 500 hours. This gives me ( someway. ) certainty that my LPs surface can't be damaged for it and that thank's that the stylus tip has no more hours its performance will be really near as when 200-300 hours with almost no demerit in the quality performance of what I'm listening.

For me 800 hours says it's time to re-tip but this is me.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.