How come Horn + woofer designs are not more popular?

@mrdecibel --

But a question for gw _smith. What are you referring to when you say " large mid horn " ? and " that’s an 8 inch bass horn wrapped up in a very small space " ? I am a 50 year Klipsch Heritage veteran ( not an employee ), and I am not understanding either of these statements. Would you please, care to explain ?

Maybe you’ve received the answers to your questions in the meantime, but poster @gw_smith wrote the following:

If I may add, that Paul Klipsch’s Klipschorn was all about making a woofer that COULD keep up with that large mid horn! (thats an 8’ bass horn wrapped up in a very small space!!)

To begin with he refers to, I believe, a bass system that can dynamically, transiently, sensitivity- and otherwise sonically compliment the midrange horn of the Khorn in a suitable fashion for an overall more coherent presentation, something that could have more easily gone haywire with a direct radiating solution, certainly in regards to maintaining the traits mentioned just above.

He’s then referring to the 8 feet (not inches) long bass horn path of the Khorn that’s folded in such a way to make for a fairly compact design, relatively speaking; as 1/4 wavelength horns we’re still faced with significant sizes if we’re to go anywhere near 30Hz, let alone deeper.

@johnk --

... The best in horns is fully horn loading and most consider this just a bit to much to pull off. So many of those who claim to have heard a horn system most likely only heard hybrids not full horn loading.

Indeed, John. Horn-loading all the way down into the upper, central and sub bass potentially lifts the presentation into another realm with better coherency, dynamics, ease, refinement and visceral impact. Certainly the importance of horn-loading the lower midrange and upper bass, where most would choose a direct radiating solution, has significant impact as well being that the predominant "founding imprinting" and energy resides here, and helps in tying the overall presentation together. A properly integrated all-horn setup delivers a sphere-like, more realistically scaled/sized and uninhibited presence, and horn-loaded central- and sub-bass simply blows away most any direct radiating solution both in regard to dynamics, "airiness," ease, refinement and sheer force. Headroom is one of the key words here, but it’s not about loud per se; it’s about enveloping, effortless and uninhibited presence at any desired volume, an aspect you cannot write realism out of. Most haven’t heard horn bass though, so most don’t know.

@atmasphere --

IMO/IME a lot of people that are down on horns really haven’t been paying attention to how far horns have progressed since computer power has become so ubiquitous. Duke’s loudspeakers (Audiokinesis) are also a good example of that and Duke is also a master at crossover designs that really blend seamlessly. Understanding how the horn is to be used (a PA horn is often not ideal in the home for example) can eliminate entirely that ’horn sound’ to which so many audiophiles object.

I agree, with the caveat that horn sound qua horn sound, even rid of overt colorations by virtue typically, but not only, of more newly developed iterations (with the understanding that direct radiators, planars, electrostatics etc. have their share of colorations/limitations too in a variety of forms), by their very nature have a higher degree of directivity (more direct sound compared to reflected ditto), a more pronounced sense of presence, typically bigger image size, better transient abilities, dynamics and so on, the latter of which has some believe this aspect is even exaggerated. All-horns rid of overt colorations and issues in relation to integration still don’t fall in line with those who prefer a more laid back, less direct presentation with muted dynamics. I would believe though that a well integrated and developed quality horn setup - preferably, by its proper definition, an all-horn setup - would impress more audiophiles than it wouldn’t.

@mijostyn --

Another issue that bothers me a little is the assumption that horns are more dynamic than other speakers. Horns are more efficient than most other speakers for sure but any speaker can be just as dynamic given enough power and power handling capacity.

That’s just the problem; with less efficient speakers and a sensitivity typically below 90dB’s "enough power" for proper dynamic envelope will largely be converted into heat in the voice coils (and crossover components as well). Depending on one’s size of listening space, distance to the speakers, room-acoustic characteristics etc. the power capacity needed for reasonbly uninhibited, realistic dynamics can very easily reach hundreds of watts, with thermal issues and power compression looming closely or already in full display eating away precious dB’s.

Imagine a not uncommon sensitivity of a direct radiator speaker sitting in the 84-87dB range compared to an all-horn speaker of 104-107dB’s sensitivity (or a horn hybrid sitting between 94-97dB’s, which will also make a big difference with ~1/10 the wattage requirement). The latter will need ~1/100 of the power - probably even less when we factor in power compression - to generate the same SPL as the former, and so full dynamic capacity with an all-horn setup, in a domestic environment, can actually be achieved close to realistically without thermal issues, and headroom to spare. And this, headroom, is hugely important. It’s not only about having "enough;" it’s about having sufficient headroom, even through blasting crescendos, for the speakers and amp(s) to more or less ease along so that the actual perceived sonics feel "at ease."

In the search for dynamic prowess it's also worthwhile to look at the possible sonic implications that follow with the  process of acoustical impedance transformation. A horn couples the cone movement to the air gradually and more efficiently than a direct radiator, and this impedance coupling "latches" the cone movements to the air in such a way, to my ears, that transient snap and dynamic feel (and presence) is heightened. The cones in all-horns also move much less for the same SPL, and therefore inertia is greatly reduced for even better transient abilities.

Headroom, again, is very important. I’d even go so far to state that for headroom to be sufficient, all-horn or horn hybrid setups with ~+97dB sensitivity is a minimum requirement if we’re to attain fairly realistic and effortless dynamics. A radical thought to some, I’m sure..

Horn speakers may have an absolute higher volume level at a given distance but very few of us listen at those levels. Our ears do have a pain threshold.

Most compressed music has limited dynamic range, and thus quite easily feels rather loud. Music not severely compressed will retain dynamics more realistically, and the average volume will feel lower. It’s not as much about loudness per se as it is ease and the overall feel of the music, and a setup sonically at ease will sound subjectively lower (but we should still be aware of SPL’s to spare our ears). When I listen to a proper all-horn setup the uninhibited presence and size/scale is addictive, and makes most direct radiators I’ve heard seem rather tame/less alive and malnourished by comparison. Many mayn’t expect it, but quality implemented horns have a warmth and vibrancy and easy-on-the-ears imprinting that’s anything but strident, shouty, nasal, hard or what have you.

@mijostyn --

Phusis, all that is nice but relative to what? We are not trying to blow up the Empire State Building.

I believe you missed my point. It’s not about loudness per se, but for loud to be effortlessly loud when needed, emulating to a certain degree a live performance here, and for the overall listening experience at levels relatively "normal" to gain from sufficient headroom as well; headroom defined as a requirement not only necessary, but "sufficient" re-defined as that which raises the bar to an at least ~15dB headroom requirement - not easily attainable when you need, say, 105dB’s peak with low to moderately sensitive speakers. This level of headroom may seem crazy to many, unnecessary indeed, and plant associations relating to structurally unsound, ludicrous-level (nice Tesla-coined term) playback that you’re clearly getting at, but I hope you know by now what I’m trying to say.

If you like pea watt amplifiers then you need all the efficiency you can get but in real life you can get all the volume and dynamics you need with dynamic drivers and good powerful amps.

You could certainly get along much more easily or fittingly with "pea watt" (2-5 watts, I take it) amps such as SET’s with very high sensitivity speakers, a rather obvious pairing, but going by my own usage I’m not necessarily an advocate of such with a 30 watts pure Class-A solid state amp for 105dB sensitivity main speakers. Very low powered amps do have their merits for sure. I can tell you this though: I’d much rather have 105dB sensitivity speakers with a real-life 30 watts Class-A amp than an 85dB ditto paired to a 3 kilowatts amp..

I am a linear array ESL fan and I guarantee you will never get as realistic a presentation out of a horn system all that rubbish aside.

"Fan" being the operative word. Granted, I just like horns.

@mijostyn --

That is why Howard Johnson made 28 flavors. But, too bad we could not hear each other’s systems.

Indeed, re: flavors. And, most definitely - it would be very enlightening listening to each others setups, and find out what words (and sitting behind the screen arguing) can’t quite get at. I have my preferences, sure, and overall I find a well-implemented all-horn system to provide something special. On the other hand it’s interesting listening to other peoples systems and get to know where they’re coming from, and what motivates their journey. Mostly I find there’s something worthwhile to appreciate here and sometimes even to be inspired by.

Occasionally I have a tendency to downplay the qualities of my own setup, even though I cherish it on a daily basis, because I listen to it so often and get used to its traits like coherency and dynamics; then, when I listen to others systems my initial reaction can be one of being in favor of this new sound just by virtue of it being new and bringing something different to the table, but after a while the pendulum swings back and stabilizes for a more level-headed approach.

A friend of mine got a fully active setup with waveguide-equipped S.P. Tech Revelation main speakers that are augmented by a pair of Electro Voice 880DM cinema subs (2x18" per sub), and the sonic totality of this system ranks among the very best I’ve ever heard. The tonality, smoothness, scale and overall authenticity is simply breathtaking, and listening to organ music from this setup actually lends you the impression of something reminiscent of a live performance, which is saying a lot. Very few systems I’ve heard are able to even remotely give the sensation of authenticity with organ music.

On the hand listening to my own setup - which still lacks a bit of fine tuning the sub-integration and room acoustics even further - feels more vibrant, "ignited," liquid and alive (also a lower volumes), and I find overall coherency better here. I’d wager the transition from 2x8" units from the S.P. Tech mains to 2x18" from the EV subs reveals itself as less energy-coherent compared to going from a horn-loaded 15" in my mains to a tapped horn-loaded 15" in my subs. Then again my setup can’t quite equal the image height and overall response-smoothness found in my friend’s system. Interesting observation: even though my friend’s system uses 2-3 kilowatts over his mains, fully active, the 30 Class-A watts over my passively-driven all-horn mains seem to deliver more uninhibited dynamics (no, it's not that I'm lured into believing what's actually distortion acts as dynamics here - re: @atmasphere).