Yeah, except when a speaker (in this case, center speaker) is sitting in somewhat of a hole in the 70-80hz regigion, and someone ends up getting some more "umph" by crossing their rather large center speaker over at, like 60hz or whatever, you should most always be looking at crossing over a normal sized center speaker at "small"! Why? Yes, they don't play so low. But that's not the problem entirely. Another case, and just as important of one, is that these passive speakers can't properly deal with full range bass info efficiently enough, often leading to distrotion, clipping, and squashed dynamics. Basically, not only does the speaker have to play lower than comfortable often, when set to "larger" (or anything larger than 60-80hz really), but the amps (usually receivers) can't really control the drivers well enough in most passive crossover design models either! The passive crossover is a rather innefficient design overall. And most speakers aren't so "sensitive" as well. (some larger horn speakers help greatly).
So, the vast majority of the time (I've yet to run any center speaker as large in any setup I've ever done, and I've done hundreds!), you get better efficiency, and dynamic range from crossing over to "small". The critical part is making sure your speakers and sub(s) are coupled well (and flat ideally) at the crossover frequency, and in phase! Here in lies the problem where most people run into with speaker/sub placement and setup. They know nothing of this part... |
"A center like the 570 I would crossover somewhere between 50 and 60 hz" (Dedwards).
Besides this center speaker being a typical dynamically low-efficiency design (Reviews measure this speaker at 86db efficiency/about 88 room, and is 5 ohms minimum/under 4 ohms nominal), the reviews and Paradims website list the frequency response limits on this center channel at 60hz+/-
3db, and 65hz +/- 2db! It's basically flat down to 83hz!!
So, if you plan on crossing this speaker at 60-50 hz, you can prepare for a very very weak bass response at the crossover point!!! This is a typical fauxpa by most audio-enthusiests, and should be avoided.
Not only that, but the standard inneficiency of a passive speaker, MANDATES that you get the very demanding bass info to a powered ACTIVE WOOFER, for best results, and dynamic transparancy/impact.
People can argue all they want that their full range audiophile speakers sound faster and tighter in the bass playinf "full range". But the problem lies in the "in-efficiency" of the design! When you play DD/DTS material, that's mixed at 5x's as more demanding dynamically than any recorded music material, and things fall appart real quick with this line of thinking! You get flat sound, dynamically squashed playback, limited dynamics, clipping, and blown drivers...as the amps can't supply the current and control to the drivers through the passive networks! This is standard affair for typical passive hi-fi speaker setups. That's the way it is. If all speakers were active models, with bigger woofers, that wouldn't be the case so much. Heck, even active commercial cinema setup's, with 118db horn designs, still cross over at 80hz to big 15/18" bass woofers!!!! There's a reason THX does this, cause it works!
Still, everything in a balance.
Based on those speakers he's using, and knowing he didn't have a sub right now, I'd be crossing that center over at 80hz, every time, and sending the bass to the mains, yes!
Everything else is going to sucketh. Sorry to inform you. |
HOWEVER, another problem here is that many people will end up "unknowingly" placing their speakers in the room, in conjuction with their seating locations, where the bass response is going to be all over the place. They often end up putting speakers where there's a hole somewhere between 60-100 hz. Then, when they put their crossover in this reigion, and it sounds like there's a "hole in the sound"/at the crossover, THEN THEY LOWER THE CROSSOVER POINT! but the problem was in the setup all along...user error.
This is one of many many reasons audio-enthusiests read reviews or hear speakers and gear at some audio store or show, then they buy some stuff off the net, hook it up in their home, without knowing what they're doing, and get bad results so often. They then conclude that the speakers aren't so good, or the sub's not as good as something else, etc.
When it comes to home theater/audio room setup, it's all about THE TEAM! Balance... |
"Also, we don't really crank it up loud, so I don't get too much of the sound falling apart problem"
This is not the problem for you here! Even if you listen at a "flee's level", well bellow the average listener, the problem lies in the dynamic ability and accuracy of the sound! Put your center speaker in a place where it's not coupling well at the crossover, or cross the speaker over where the speaker is "quickly" rolling off, and you'll have lower fidelity, even weak sound from the speaker (and thus the system)!
It's not necessarily a matter of whether or not you like to crank your system. If the system is going to have any chance to have any sense of power, dynamics, impact, and accuracy of response to the sound, you need to consider these things. Otherwise, you cross your fingers and hope for the best. Often times, it doesn't turn out so well, being there's so many speakers, so many settings, crossovers, phase issues, acoustical issues, fine-tuning adjustements, etc, that it all gets washed over...pulling the system down the toilet, sonically.
If I were you', I'd do this test:
Run the center speaker full range (mono, summed stereo), with a test CD that has test-tones at all the lower frequencies. Play them through the critical 63hz-100hz reigion, and see what kind of response you're getting from your center! If you're getting weak response (in relation to the rest of the frequencies, and at 1khz) at the 80hz point, or where you cross over, you've got a problem! That's where the critical bass reigion lies. You should be getting solid response down where you're crossing your speaker over, in this case, to your mains. See what you get. |
"Unfortunately, I am not too familiar with the cross over concept and procedures" (Mtrot)
Ah, you're not alone! Most even seasoned audiophiles, who've tried and followed all kinds of gear over the years, don't know any of this either!
No worries. Try this: Simply play testones through your center speaker, with your "small" setting, and measure your levels compared to 1khz. If you measure like 6, 7, or 8+ db down at 80hz to 100hz, you seriously need to check your center speaker placement, As this is where your crossover is going to be set! Many people cross their bookshelve speakers and center channels where there's "holes" in these critical crossover reigions, and things don't end up so good. If this is the case for you, from your listening possitions (where you measure from), you need to move the speaker around till you get flat response (+/-5db, or better), and especially, no holes/dips in the response above and at the crossover point. Try this and see what I mean. If you can get solid response, you'll have solid dynamic "accurate" sound, fundamentally.
Otherwise, you pay someone, that's all your options |
I most DEFINITELY dissagree with the standard propensity to set speakers to "large" that are typical inefficient and low sensitivity designs inherently! (regardless of what some TECH GUYS on a telephone, who doesn't know better likely, has to say)
Some "Technical support" personnel guy at a company doesn't necessarily have the experience in setting up quality high performance home theater/mulit-channel systems for a living, and is simply giving his idea of how HE THINKS speakers that will play lower than 80hz (small) should be set!!!! This means nothing to me personally.
That said, if you have NO SUBWOOFER, then yes, you could tinker with full range settings, as you, afterall, need bass, yes. STILL, all things considered, it's not going to do proper dynamic justic to your system, by making speakers that can simply simply play down lower, ACTUALLY PLAY LOWER with dynamic DD/DTS material, and harder dynamic material! A powered speaker is much much better in this application.
This is a common problem/view-point of many speaker manufactures, who's speakers measure down to a certain frequency range, for them to recommend you cross their speakers over lower, since they'll basically play lower! HOWEVER, this accounts nothing for the inneficiency in their otherwise "hopeful" speaker designs, to ACTUALLY HANDLE THE DYNAMIC ABILITIES OF THE SOURCE MATERIAL OUT THERE!
I can't tell you how many hundreds of system's and years of experience I've professionally installed hi-end systems, only to find typical FULL RANGE loudspeakers (even the likes of BIG Dunlavy's, Thiel's, B&W's, etc), that can play down to 20hz or lower, that WILL DISTORT AND SQUASH DYNAMICS, even "clip" under dynamic demands, due to IN-EFFICIENCY of the design of the speaker system!!! This is why THX uses and recommends a higher crossover setting, for this very reason! They understand how things work.
Never-the-less, yes, if you HAVE TO, you can set speakers lower, with no subwoofer mind you, and just run things on a lower level. And still, you'll sacrifice dynamics quite a bit, even squash and flatten dynamic response, ideally, if even clipping speakers.
PEOPLE can set thigns however they want however. Afterall, it's their system's! But even as I sit and discuss proper hi-end system setup, room acoustics and calibration, with "industry professionals" who do this for a living, we all understand setting speaker to 80hz range most often, as typical full range home audio speaker systems simply aren't efficient enough to deal with the extremely high demands pressent in today's software and digital media!
Each person really needs to try themselves, with their variables, and their knowledge ability to find out however...if they're doing it themselves that is.
So, for the record, I'd not be setting mine up the way that's being recommend here...lol |
