How Big of a Difference?


Hello all,

I have near completed upgrading my system, but have left my speaker wire the same. My system is as follows- Laptop (Tidal) > Schiit Gumby Multibit > Freya S > Vidar monoblocks > speakers. My usb cable is Supra usb, and I am using xlr connections with amazon basics cables. If I am not mistaken, xlr is already super good at being noise resistance so I shouldn't need to spend more $ on fancy cables at my current level of audio equipment. My speaker wire is traditional 12 gauge wire I spliced from the spool. Nothing fancy. The reason I feel I shouldn't spend money on better speaker wire is because I traded the Supra usb for a super cheap usb and could not hear a difference. On top of that, I used to use single-ended connections using Chord C-line cables, and I could not tell the difference between those and cheap ones. What is everyone else's consensus? Can you guys hear a difference in your system? Thanks for the help.

oedstrom11

Showing 8 responses by holmz

I'm not surprised you didn't hear a difference between the USB cables ... that's because there IS no difference. Any decent USB cable brings the 0's and 1's to the other end perfectly fine without errors.

With speaker cable there could be audible differences, given the rest of your setup is capable of bringing out the nuances. But it'll be subtle ... so subtle that only few people with almost absolute hearing will be able to spot them. These people exist, just like there are people who can name the vineyard when they smell and taste a wine, or the 'nose' of a perfume brand, who designs the fragrances. But these people are rare and are well trained ... the question is if you can hear the difference.

I am much better with the wine than with the cables.

I would not waste even a cheap bottle on a USB cable, unless it had a good return policy.

I am not anti-cables and my view is that if someone hears a positive difference between one cable and another (or lifting then off the floor) then that is all that matters. The difference is real for them. 


This is pretty much how we get to alternate truths,
(If we assume that there are not multiple realities.)
 

I do Not hear a difference between cables on the floor as opposed to elevated....therefore they will stay on the floor...

Confucius Say, “That well grounded system.”

@williewonka that all sound correct and true.

The only part that has me chin scratching is:

  • most use UP-OCC copper and the best use a solid core wire, which translates to faster response to transient current demands - so better dynamic performance

Is there really any transient current demand that is even measurable? We have the AC crossing zero 120 times a second, and then amplifiers power supplys generally have a bank of capacitors that are holding the energy for output transients.
So clearly any high freq transients that happen when the input voltage is crossing zero, needs to come from the cap-bank.

So is there much happening on the input in terms of transients?

I recall when the VTLs were working, that they would run for many seconds after the power was switched off… basically they would play music until the heaters glow went away.

Or does the effect of the supply side get more important on specific amps with less in terms of the power supply capacitor banks?

Hope that helps - Steve

Thanks, but I am probably a bit slow.

I understand the speaker’s voltage and current draw relationship.

And also the amplifier trying to get to a specific output voltage in a closed loop feedback fashion. 

So it is just the power supply and power cord relationship that has me slowed up.

 

But, bear in mind that all of this is all happening at lightening fast speeds, so even in the best mono-blocks - good power cables will improve their performance.

About 11-12% of the time the mains voltage is too low to pulse any current into the power supply (Assuming that the rail is at ~28V).

Or the 60 Hz, being rectified, is operating at 120 Hz, or ~8 msec peak to peak. And the time that the voltage is too low to flow into the power supply is about 1msec.

If it all happened in the blink of an eye, then how is it the tube monoblocks ran for many seconds (!10 Seconds) when the power switch was shut off?

Additionally if the power cord had, say a bit ferrite bead on it for RF suppression, then that would limit the bandwidth down. And limit the “blink of an eye” speed down as well. And other noise filtering would also slow the bandwidth of the incoming current down. (Which probably is really only needing to be at 120 Hz, or some power supply feedback circuit that has a bandwidth of maybe 20 kHz or less?)

 

So, when selecting power cables for any component I look for those that use UP-OCC copper, because it will provide excellent dynamic response. Silver is better, but a lot more expensive.

How does the silver result in any the electrons getting into the power supply any faster?

The resistance of copper and silver is pretty close to zero, and the speed of the electric field is pretty fast.

So it seems like the dynamics would be primarily governed by the power supply.

It seems like the city and house wires, and power cord, are only bringing the goods to the power supply?
Or… if the cord from the wall outlet to the amp input were made shorter and shorter, then the power cord effectively goes away?
If I have 100’ from the pole to the house, and 100’ from the box to the outlet, then how does 3 feet of silver result in anything more dynamic happening?

If the power cord is doing some other stuff like filtering noise, then I could understand that as a goal.

All I know for sure is that the specs which are rated in terms of “per foot” or “per meter”, seem to favour using monoblocks close to the speaker. So close that the speaker cables never get to the floor, always seems to work for me.

 

The only point in time where electrical energy does NOT flow is at that point in time when the voltage passes from the +ve cycle to the -ve cycle - the rest of the time there is energy transfer

I think that the input voltage needs to higher than the rail voltage (and maybe a diode drop of two extra… 

So it is like 10 degrees either side of the zero crossing where that voltage is not enough to flow into the power supply.

I always love the "your system is not resolving enough" commentary.  Frankly, any reasonably eared person should be able to detect differences on almost any system, resolving or not, IF there is a difference. It's the delta you should be able to detect, regardless of the quality of the starting point. The "resolving" comment to me is a defensive rationalization.

My usual response that statement is "or maybe your brain is not objective enough..."

I do not mean to attack those who responded in good faith, but I do want to point out to those who regularly post such statements that really they're putting themselves, and their fancy dandy systems, above other people.  It's a bit condescending. 

I would accept a measurement delta of the amp with the standard and magic power cord.
And also with interconnects.

Speaker cables carry more current, so maybe the is some magnetic field thing possible where the elevators move it away from a floor. But even then it would be much easier to believe something is happening in a measurement, than in a magic show.

if it is so profound, it should be easy to show it.

I have near completed upgrading my system, but have left my speaker wire the same. My system is as follows- Laptop (Tidal) > Schiit Gumby Multibit > Freya S > Vidar monoblocks > speakers. My usb cable is Supra usb, and I am using xlr connections with amazon basics cables. If I am not mistaken, xlr is already super good at being noise resistance so I shouldn’t need to spend more $ on fancy cables at my current level of audio equipment.

XLR is good.

 

My speaker wire is traditional 12 gauge wire I spliced from the spool. Nothing fancy. The reason I feel I shouldn’t spend money on better speaker wire is because I traded the Supra usb for a super cheap usb and could not hear a difference. On top of that, I used to use single-ended connections using Chord C-line cables, and I could not tell the difference between those and cheap ones.

If your speakers have bi-wire connections, then you could throw some 4 core Magomi 13 gauge between the monoblocks and the speakers.
(It is ~$5/meter I think and high quality stuff with good specs.)

Or another set of the traditional stuff you used, in a bi-wire to the tweeters/MR.

 

What is everyone else’s consensus?

Save your money.

 

Can you guys hear a difference in your system? Thanks for the help.

Not usually.
Sometimes in my mind I want to though.