The only difference between standard outlets and hospital-grade outlets is how tightly they grip the blades of the plug. High-end outlets, plugs, and power cords have no advantage - none - over standard equipment of the same capacity except that they look better and feel better. The rest is in people's minds. There are no measurable differences. Not a one. Cryogenics means nothing to power lines. Not a thing.
You've already done the right thing by running dedicated 20A lines. It might help (but only a little bit) if you keep the amps and other components on separate circuits, and only due to potential voltage sags. Some people think digital components put garbage on the power circuits, but I've never seen one measurement to prove it.
One exception might be power line filtering, if you have a problem with noise or spikes. Isolation transformers and the like can sometimes make a difference, especially for source components, but most people don't live in areas with a problem. My advice is to get a dealer to loan you the equipment for a day or two. If there's an obvious improvement, buy it. If not, save your money.
Don't waste too much money on powercord-related stuff. Save your money for better speakers, acoustical treatments, amps, and source components (probably in that order). Those are the things that make a difference. Use your head and reason, don't just read advertising and bogus magazine reviews. How could an outlet provide such a superior connection that water boiled 20% faster? That's poppycock. Put on your thinking cap. |
To those that say outlets (or power cords, or plugs) have a sonic signature... how do you believe this happens? You have many, many feet of 12-14ga Romex (or equivalent) in your house. Some of you have aluminum wires. Then you assume that the termination of all of that simple, cheap wiring at the outlet, as compared to a different termination (that can be shown to have inconsequential resistance), has a sonic signature? This is akin to astrology. I have no doubt that some people believe they hear differences, but the far and away most likely scenario is that there are no differences between outlets (that function properly within their specs), no sonic differences attributable to cryogenics, and that same reasoning can be extended to power cords with reasonable gauges for the loads involved. The difference you think you hear isn't real. It's in your head and nowhere else.
Even if you assume, just for the point of argument, that there is a difference in sonics that could happen between outlets, how would that difference survive the voltage step-down of the component's power transformer? Or the rectification to DC? Or the capacitors? Before all of those electrons hit any sort of active circuitry?
Doesn't this seem unreasonable? Did all of you sleep during high school physics? I'm assuming there's no one arguing here that even vaguely understands electrical engineering... |
Believing you hear a difference is not proof. I'm not personally a fan of using double-blind testing to figure out what makes a difference (taking such a test is so annoying I think it masks differences), but I think it is necessary to have at least a vague theory about why some change will make a difference. This is where special outlets, power cords, plugs, and the like, fail the test.
Electricity is not a mystery. Not even a little bit. Electrical behavior is not like biology. There aren't any new phenomena being observed. This has nothing to do with quantum physics, no similarity with the origins of life... electrical engineering is not a field where the fundamentals are poorly understood. I hate to break this to you, but the very existence of microchips proves that electrical behavior is understood to a very, very high level. We know how electrons behave at stupendously low current levels, very high frequencies, and with every known conductor, and this audio and AC power stuff is simplistic by comparison.
There is no known way that there can be a difference between two electrical outlets, both with similar resistance (like, effectively zero for any properly functioning outlet), sufficient to alter the current flow in any meaningful way. Forget EMI. That's microvolts compared to 110-120v from the wall. Six to eight orders of magnitude difference? The length of the current path and the amount of metal involved is small enough that any reasonable copper alloy will be nearly perfect. Even silver would only make a 5% conductance difference within the outlet, but within the total context of the mains circuit path that 5% would be inconsequential. (And it ain't 5% of volts, so that if silver is 100v copper would be 95v. It's a 5% increase in resistance, and since V=current x resistance, and current is large and the resistance of copper is so small to begin with, the overall difference is very small.)
I'm sorry guys, but what you are professing, that there are differences in sonics due to different properly functioning conductors in the mains power path, is unreasonable. Asserting there are differences because you think you hear them is not only bad science, it's just plain provably wrong. I don't care that there are companies or seemingly expert people in the industry that say there are differences, there aren't. They can't explain why those differences would occur, and electricity ain't a mystery.
There are things I've purchased where I've definitely exhibited having more money than sense. For my amps I made power cords using 12/3 Carol cable and Marinco plugs and IECs. They're the right length and the plugs sure do look cool, and 12/3 looks nice and thick. Overkill, oh yeah. Difference in sound over the molded cords that came with the amps? Nope. There's 119v measured at the outlet and at the IEC end of the power cord. That's all that's important. Those big old transformers in the amp are going to change everything anyway. If you want to justify high-end power stuff because it looks cool or feels cool... I'm into it. But to argue there's a "sonic signature"? You're kidding yourselves. You might as well pray to idols for better sound. |
11-12-04: Swklein
Another pointless battle between those who hear differences and those who don't- which has to depend, I have come to believe, not on differences of hearing but on the resolution and nature of the equipment used.
Hmmm... My equipment is mid-line. An ML39 feeding a Sony TA-E1, driving twin ML334's vertically biamping a pair of Legacy Focus. Pretty good resolution, though below, say, Maggie 20.1's, IMO. Still, better than a boombox. |
11-12-04: Jburidan
Here's a plausible explanation as to why power cords make a difference:
It's my understanding that standard wiring for 15 amp house circuits is 14 AWG with three conductors. Many components come with detachable cheap 18 AWG power cords with molded connectors. The 18 AWG cords can present a bottleneck between house wiring and a component's internal wiring. Whether one hears a difference with thicker wires, depends on the quality of the component's internal wiring. High quality amplifiers may use anywhere from 14 to 8 AWG internally. In that case, common sense tells me that better cables will make a noticeable difference.
No difference unless the component draws enough current so that 18ga power cord heats up, increases in resistance, and therefore lowers the available voltage to the component. 18ga might not be enough for a Krell KMA-100, but for most Class AB amps you'd have to drive them really hard to make an 18ga power cord the limiter. It'll be more of a fire hazard than a hazard to bad sound quality. I'm not recommending 18ga power cords, but in reality for a 6ft length with most components there won't be a difference, except in our heads. :) |
Now look, frankly I wouldn't have wasted my time with this discussion, but telling someone that electrical outlets affect the "sonic signature" of a stereo system is just so much nonsense I couldn't stand it. There is no need to measure the effect of outlets on sound because they can't have the effects being described here. You are assuming that processes you are ignorant of can have effects you wish for. There are many, many things that can effect the sound of an audio system, but different properly functioning electrical outlets are not one of them. I don't think I'm going out on a limb at all by saying there will be no new science in this area. Ever.
And by the way, this discussion was not sophomoric. I asked why anyone thought an outlet could affect the sound of an audio system and I didn't get one response. All of the responses essentially said "it just does". I just hope the original poster has the common sense not to listen to this baloney. |
Sonofnorway, or whatever you're a son of... :)
How are outlets different than a power cord? An outlet is just a female version of a power plug. Get it? And the power cord, how is that different than the wire in the wall? If this question can't be answered this discussion is moot.
I remember reading somewhere that some fellow that produced "high-end" power cables was asked essentially the same questions I'm asking. His response was that the outlet or the power cord was just like a nozzle on a hose, and the water just like electrons. So, in his mind, outlets, plugs, and wires has just as much effect on electrical current as a nozzle has on the flow of water. Once I got done laughing I thought that, in a way, that could be vaguely true, if the outlet or the plug contained a potentiometer. But none of them do, so I started laughing again. I think it was in Stereophile, and I bet Atkinson printed it as a joke. |
Nrchy, I can't explain it other than you wanted to hear a difference. Aftermarket power cords, cables, outlets, and other stuff, does look and feel good. Look at Audioquest cables. Perhaps the greatest snake-oil per dollar of any high-end product, yet they are physically very, very nice stuff. Electrically, total BS. But I can see where someone could allow themselves to think they made a difference just because they are so cool looking.
My point is only that power-related stuff is outside of the signal path. It can't make the differences some people think they do, as compared to properly functioning alternatives. There's no more voltage going down the wire, noise isolation makes no difference, and the contact resistance is no lower than what they sell at Home Depot. They can't make more power or cleaner power. If you want that there's AC regeneration (like in some Levinson amps) or Varacs and other power line filtering / voltage leveling components. But even those only keep the power clean and steady, they aren't in the signal path.
Fighting one's own false perceptions is sometimes the toughest battle. |
Metralla, outlets are not in the signal path. There is no way anyone I know of can explain how something outside of the signal path could have the effects you and others describe. It smacks of quantum entanglement, but that ain't at work here. :) Electricity is not a mystery. Not even a little bit. |
Jeffreybehr, this is simply not the case. You can wish it into your perceptions, but you can't wish it into reality. How can you tell the difference between what you hear and what you think you hear? I've got pretty good hearing, but I've been fooled before into thinking there are differences that really aren't there. Some things are physically impossible. |
Tbg... excuse me? I wouldn't know science if it bit me? And you're arguing that something outside of the signal path, that has no measurable differences whatsoever compared to another fully functioning device of the same type, can have subtle effects on things like soundstaging? Give me a break! That's like being called unscientific by a palm reader. |
Tobias... run the test yourself man. Jeez. Go for it. Report your results. 20% faster would require a 20% increase in power transfer. Maybe UHF was testing against a 30AWG power cord. |
Psychic... I don't have to shut up. If you can't take the heat go away. Buy another $99 outlet or something. Throw pixie dust on your speakers. Paint your CD edges green. Take a pill. Get a shrink. Tell the moderator to throw me off. Maybe he or she can explain to me how an outlet changes soundstage. |
Psychicanimal, stop telling me to shut up. Observation must be tempered by understanding, or you don't know what you're looking at. In this case, the very notion that something outside of the signal path can have such subtle effects on the signal path is a long stretch at best. When that something outside of the signal path, that has no active circuitry, and has identical measured specs to something you claim is inferior, that's snake-oil, pure and simple. That's lousy science. Circuitry ain't like aquatic systems because you can't observe it, you have to measure it. And for the record, it does not appear you know anything about electronics. |
Boa2, this discussion started out, for me, to see if I could keep the original poster from being taken in by you snake-oil salespeople. After that I was simply surprised by the fervor of the counterattack, and the discussion became fun. I'm being told to shut up, go away, and I'm being rather humorously insulted.
By the way, you are confusing my contention that *power cables* and outlets can't affect the sound (as compared to properly functioning and spec'd alternatives) with a blanket statement that all cables can't affect the sound of a system. Interconnects and speaker cables can provably affect a system's sound, though usually if they are incorrectly engineered. If you use 22AWG or smaller speaker cables, interconnects with overly high capacitance, or numerous other situations I can think of off the top of my head, there will likely be audible artifacts. This is because THESE CABLES ARE IN THE AUDIO SIGNAL PATH. See how that works?
On the other hand you would be correct if you assume I don't think there are audible differences between two cables - of any sort - with the same specifications. |
Tbg, lighten up. I once read about the scientific method, and it did include something about observation, but I think that meant *valid* observation. Listening for differences without a double-blind environment is not considered scientifically valid, so let's get off of our scientific high horse. But DBTs aside, I still don't understand how outlets could affect the sound of an audio system, and no one here can explain. I have a rudimentary knowledge of electronics and I can't explain how it could possibly be that two outlets of similar specifications make a "night and day" difference.
One could reasonably complain that I haven't changed my outlets, so how would I know if they made a difference? Well, my outlets are brand new (as is the whole house), and I did change the power cords and did not notice any difference in sound. Not even a little bit. Is there a difference between outlets and power cords? How could there be? Of course, I wasn't expecting to hear a difference, so maybe THAT'S why I didn't. I wonder if I've stumbled upon the real answer... |
Albertporter, I'm not sure how to respond... I think I have a concept of the importance of every part of a high-end system. I just have a different perspective than you do.
I have to admit, though, I have been out of touch with a certain segment of the high-end community. This segment includes people that think power cords have to be broken-in, and even believe that the wall outlet makes a difference. I won't put too fine a point on it. I think people with these beliefs are misguided, and I think they give audiophiles a bad name. And, no, I don't think it's my mission to police the audiophile world, I'm just having fun in a discussion about the undiscussable. |
Albertporter, my system is definitely not up to the task of letting me hear the difference between power outlets, or power cables for that matter. Nonetheless, as a previous poster insinuated, it isn't from Radio Shack either. A Levinson 39 feeds a Sony TA-E1 over a foot of balanced Blue Jeans, which feeds twin Levinson 334 amps over 45 feet of balanced Cobalt Cables, biamping a pair of Legacy Focus over about 4ft of 10awg Sound King zip cord with WBT bananas and some spades I can't remember the brand of. The power cables I described in a previous post. :) Now I suppose you're going to tell me that if I got rid of the, ahem, non-audiophile interconnects and speaker cables I could hear the difference when I switched power cables (which I just did a few months ago). Certainly my friend David thought so. If you agree with him I recommend a BS in Physics. (Advanced degrees are probably unnecessary for understanding simple stuff like audio electronics and audio frequency signal propagation.)
There are some puzzling things about this system. First, I think the ML39 sounds better feeding the Sony than it does in pre-amp mode feeding the 334's directly. It shouldn't, but I was convinced enough that it does that I bought the pre-amp. It might have something to do with the 334's having a lower than spec (100Kohm) input impedance at some frequencies, combined with whatever effects 45ft of balanced line has, but the truth is I don't know. I don't even know if the effect is real, but it seems that way. An ML32 sounded just as good as the Sony, but I wasn't paying that kind of green for a pre-amp. It was way cool though...
Then there's that bi-amping thing. What's up with that? Normally, I think bi-amping is a waste of good amplifier hardware, especially in the class of the 334. And especially considering the Focus is worth about 95db/2.83v or better (Legacy says 98db, but I'm not sure I believe them). Anyway, I try the 334's and, whoa, mucho effortless sound compared to a 335 (twice the power of a 334) or my old pair of KMA-100mk-II's. Why would that be? Well, I don't know. I suspect a bunch of reasons, but I can't prove any of them so it ain't worth discussing. Nonetheless, I bought the 334's and I've been happy ever since. So even I'm not immune to (probably) deluding myself, but at least this stuff is active circuitry in the signal path.
I'd also be willing to admit that I might be hearing differences that aren't there, and that I just may have chosen to bi-amp because it looks cool. (It does.) Every once in a while I use only one amp just to convince myself bi-amping is still better, and, funny, it always works! :) |
Albertporter, how can one be so righteous about a *lack* of knowledge? I can understand a distain for engineering and science in a field like oil painting, or maybe even making musical instruments, but in a field like audio equipment, which wouldn't even exist without science and engineering??? Do you have any idea how silly that sounds?
Ya know what, I haven't had this much fun in a debate since some kid tried to convince me a grounding kit added a bunch of horsepower to his Honda. |
Rushton! Welcome to the down-with-knowledge-fest! So let me guess, you don't know anything about electricity, electronics or psychoacoustics either?
I'm sorry, but I still don't understand. Perhaps you can educate me. Forget about electrical outlets for just a second. They're too simple for argument. Lets go with power cords. So one can measure a 60Hz AC current at a certain voltage level coming into the cord at the male end of the plug, and there's exactly the same 60Hz AC current at the exact same voltage (within .1 volts, or a loss of less than 1 part in a 1000) coming out the other end. The AC power is about to go into a transformer to be stepped down in voltage by a bunch, and then rectified to DC. Then it flows into a rank of capacitors that meter it out to a couple of amplification stages. Oh yeah, that transformer has a bunch of inches of wire in it. And then there's a bunch of feet of wire in the wall, before you even get to the power cord. Don't these wires make the power cord a little moot? Now tell me again how the power cord affects the sound of the amplifier's output? I must be missing something... can you help? |
Tbg, I have not positioned myself as the absolute authority. Many of you have told me to listen, so I offered. Sometimes you can't win... |
No. I've never used Raul. |
Sorry, Saki70, I was having entirely too much fun. Isolated grounding is highly recommended, if only to make sure that the outlets are indeed grounded properly! You'd be surprised how may homes/apts have screwed up grounding.
One thing to watch for that annoyed a previous spouse... an electrician will install orange outlets for isolated ground circuits, unless you direct him differently. My spouse found the bright orange offensive. |
The orange color widened the soundstage considerably. The inter-note silences were also deeper and blacker. The only downside was that I noticed some softening of the micro-dynamics, but I only noticed it when using unbalanced interconnects. |
Saki70... orange is the industry standard color to signify isolated ground circuits, but outlets with isolated ground construction (phase, neutral, case ground, conduit ground) can be acquired in many colors. You only really need orange for something like an electronics lab, where some test equipment needs a very clean ground (for voltage reference purposes, perhaps) and you don't want to accidentally use a conventional circuit. You might get inconsistent results.
For dedicated audio circuits isolated grounds are sort of like belt and suspenders, if you know what I mean. In many cases you won't hear the difference. When you're installing new circuits it's not that much more expensive, and you just might get lower noise. So why not? When I did mine I didn't think twice about it (though I had to get ivory isolated ground outlets special ordered, so we lived with orange for a couple of weeks). |
Tubegroover, I was only joking in my "orange improved the soundstaging" post. I was making fun of the "inter-note silences" and "microdynamics" bs I read in so many high-end reviews.
As for Albert Porter... yes, I am saying that you've all been duped by (at best) a placebo effect, at least with regards to differences between properly functioning power cords, outlets, and cryogenic treatments of such devices. I've been a fool often enough myself that I'm certainly not prone to tagging someone else with that designation. Nonetheless, since cryogenic treatment does not materially affect the resistance or capacitance of a power cord or an outlet, how does the treatment affect power transfer? The answer is that it doesn't. A $50 multimeter from Sears will show this.
The issue in this thread is that some people have been asserting that there are differences between power cords and outlets because they claim to hear them. And there are other people, like me, that are asserting that any differences you hear are likely due to your imagination because there are no measurable differences in the signal conducted. So it does come down to dueling assertions. I believe mine has much more standing because 1. listening tests not under double-blind conditions are proven to be scientifically invalid, and 2. 120v/60Hz electrical signals are easily measured and characterized by inexpensive testing equipment, and these measurements reveal NO differences at all. I actually give more credibility to UFO abduction stories than I do to audible differences between power cables (and I don't give UFO stories much credibility either). |
Hdm - I have not measured any cryo'd cable. For one thing, I'm not sure how I would measure the difference, unless the improvement was on the order of 50%!!
A run-of-the-mill 14AWG Cu cable has resistance of .0026 ohms per foot. So, a ten foot power cable would have about .03 ohms of resistance. The resolution of my test equipment is about .001 ohms, so the improvement from cryogenics would have to be big for me to see it. I don't use 14AWG cords, I use 12AWG cords, which are about .0017 ohms per foot, so, if I may ask, how are *you* measuring the difference? On what? In my opinion, a .001 ohm difference in a power cord is worth essentially nothing. Every outlet and plug I have measured, only to test for proper function, measure zero ohms (in other words, beyond my multimeter resolution).
Cryo treatments *do* change metallic structures. It's popular for good reason with brake rotors, for example. But it doesn't materially improve cables. |
Tbg, I like your writing style. Your argument is a little screwed up, but great style! :) |
Hdm, not only have you quoted me improperly and out of context, but you don't know what you're talking about. I figured all of that measurement stuff was chest beating. I'll tell you what, though. If someone will send me at least one cryo'd cable I'll give it a listen. But buy it, you've got to be kidding.
Did you really spend more on the cable than the DVD player? That's... funny! |
Albert, experience ain't enough. Your ears (well, actually your brain) can and will deceive you. And at least some rudimentary science does count. You see, Albert, you're pecking an answer me on a machine that wouldn't exist without a pretty breathtaking understanding of how electricity is conducted through all sorts of materials, taking into account some pretty subtle effects that are sometimes down to a mere trickle (metaphorically speaking) of electrons on signal paths less than a micron wide. And then, laughably, you use that very device to tell me that the science of signal propagation, that's much simpler than that for integrated circuits, doesn't matter. I've got news for you - it matters.
Now I know that a big deal is being made here that I haven't listened to a cryo'd power cord or outlet, so therefore my arguments aren't valid. But guys, I have listened to many different power cables, speaker cables and interconnects - in a damn revealing system - and I heard no difference. None. Nada. Now are you arguing that cryo'd cables are necessary to hear the difference?
And by the way, before any of you guys argue that I haven't heard proper cables, here's the list:
An Audioquest power cord the dealer had me try when I bought my first ML amp. He was very nice to me, so I humored him. No difference. It sure looked nice, though. I thanked him for the experience and returned it.
Cardas Quadlink interconnects. Nice color! I found these at a garage sale / estate sale for $20, in perfect condition. I use them on my video system,for audio (with an $80 receiver). No difference on the main system.
Audioquest Midnight and Green Hyperlitz speaker cables. I could have sworn they didn't sound as good as my home-made 10AWG cables, but I must have been imagining things. They certainly didn't sound better. (Have you ever cut one of these open? There's so little copper in there you wonder how they work properly at all. All to try and manage skin effect at audio frequencies...)
So now what? I suppose now I need to have my ears cleaned or my hearing checked? |
Eldartford, which outlet does the dog recommend? |
By the way, Hdm, I really didn't answer you properly last night. The "$50 multimeter" was for verifying that the resistance of properly functioning conventional power cords and outlets are essentially zero. My comment that a more sophisticated instrument would be necessary for determining the improvement due to cryogenics was because I believe whatever improvement there might be will be below the resolution of a typical multimeter, and that's because the resistance of the cord or outlet starts out so low to begin with. I'm sorry my statements appeared contradictory, but I think they are relatively clear if you read closely, rather than just be poised and ready to attack. Are we really supposed to believe that differences in current of far less than 1% make a difference? Never mind, that's a rhetorical question. |
Boa2, to answer your last question first, I am having fun, but I'm not looking for a fight. Not one bit. I just like a debate, perhaps too much. The reason I answered Saki70 had nothing to do with hospital-grade outlets, it was because some people were saying that outlets sound significantly different, so I asked why. I also gave my opinions that there were no differences, and that the reason there were no differences was because there were no measurable differences. While I haven't A/B'd outlets, I have done so for power cords, heard no difference (of course I didn't expect to - is that a problem?), and postulated that if power cords made no difference certainly outlets wouldn't. The conversation went downhill from there.
Doesn't "the community" allow a diversity of opinions? Or is that diversity only allowed to fall into the very narrow range of people that are willing to wish differences into existence? |
Albert, I will think of you every time I look at a picture of a TI product. I am very sorry that you view this discussion as an attack.
There is a person I've seen newsgroup postings from that has a really cool quote in his sig. It says "music is art, audio is engineering". I often don't agree with that person, but you can't argue with that sig quote.
And by the way, Albert, not only do you need a lesson in physics, but in reading. I never said I had a degree in physics, I suggested that someone in this thread get one. Was that you? I can't remember. The suggestion still stands... of course, alas, that may not help. If I remember correctly, the seminal work in the speaker-cables-sound-different field was done in Stereophile by Dick Olsher, and I think he is/was a physicist at Los Alamos. In your case I just happen to think a little knowledge might make you more open-minded. |
Tobias, I love Montreal, and I wish I got there more often. The closest I usually get is Toronto (yet another awesome Canadian city - but Montreal is more fun IMO), otherwise I would enjoy taking you up on your offer. Hearing other peoples' systems is always interesting, but hearing other peoples' MUSIC is fascinating. I've developed so many new interests by listening with others. Especially since I have a tendency to spend too much time with Beethoven, Mozart, and Schubert, left to my own devices.
I agree with you on higher contact pressure being better, and I think I mentioned that once. Good signal transfer is always good, though I've never been able to measure an insertion loss for power cords approaching a tenth of a volt, even on conventional stock outlets. Of course, my homes have always been of rather recent construction.
I think I also mentioned I'm not a fan of participating in double-blind tests. Frankly, I find them tedious, and I'm of the opinion that the annoyance of a DBT tends to mask differences, but that's only an opinion. I like to listen, but if I hear differences that correspond with measurements I'm more inclined to make purchase decisions based on my perceived differences.
I think I'll be able to hang on to my "collective hallucination" notion easily, because I'm convinced I'm a victim myself sometimes. Once I performed a comparative cable test, between 18ga speaker cables and 10ga cables, and I was convinced I heard an improvement from the 10ga cables. Then I got up and found I had switched the cables improperly (I was distracted by a friend) and I was listening to the 18ga cables all along. That incident, along with others, taught me a lot about wanting to find a difference. Another reason I can hang on is that I'm having fun. I'm not taking the insults seriously. |
Eldartford, I hope you do not think it is me saying that you can't make sense if you don't have scientific training. My message is that if you think you are observing phenomena that run counter to well-proven knowledge and understanding you should check your premises. In this case, people are claiming to hear differences between power cords and outlets, when they measure identically with proven parameters (I emphasize the proven part), are not in the audio signal path, and there's no known way they can affect the audio signal in anything except a very indirect manner. And then they assume that because they think they hear a difference, that somehow that proves that humanity's understanding of how electrical circuits work is incomplete. I have a problem with that. I don't think scientific training is an issue, I just think that if you can't understand how some technical knowledge applies formal training can't hurt. |
"Are you that certain that you're right?"
Tubegroover, that's a damned good question! The answer is that I haven't seen (or heard) any compelling evidence that my assertion is wrong. If you boil it down far enough, what we think we "know" about the universe and the way it operates exists only because we hypothesize about the way the universe works, and then we devise tests that either prove or disprove our guesses. For some physical phenomena the guesses do change over time a little bit. Sometimes a lot, but not often. I blame it all on Einstein for so famously changing some guesses made by Newton in such a big way, because it gave people the impression, I think, that other guesses we've made are subject to just as much change. That our understanding is somehow superficial. That might be true in quantum physics, certainly so in some areas of biology, but electricity is a lot different.
Not that electricity and electromagnetism are so simple. A friend of mine specializes in electromagnetic interference effects for multi-gigahertz electronics, and the math he uses is formidable. There's also a lot judgement involved sometimes in product development that makes laymen wonder about "understanding". For example, high-volume production circuit boards are typcially made from a material called "FR-4". It's green, fiberglass, and it's cheap. If you look inside of your PC you'll see a lot of it. Anyway, 10 years ago some of the best analog electrical engineers were of the opinion that for signals with a clock frequency of greater than 500MHz we just might have to drop FR-4, and go to more expensive materials like teflon (due to noise levels, among other things). Anyway, 10 years later we're still using FR-4 for signals well into the multi-gigahertz range. The engineers recommending teflon back then were "wrong". Was this due to a lack of understanding? Did we learn new things about electricity since then?
No, to both questions. Engineers learned more about developing what are called "design rules", that more stringently specified high-speed circuitry to function on FR-4. More was learned about how to manage noise and EMI in physical designs. The engineers were actually correct, using the old rules. So now we have cheap multi-gigahertz circuitry, and nothing I'm aware of was learned about electrical theory. Much was learned about how to engineer products, but it's the same theories, proven over and over again, thousands of times per day, by observations called ultra-precise measurements under controlled conditions. We know how electricity functions because everytime we properly construct a given scenario it works EXACTLY as predicted. Every time.
Do I KNOW that two properly functioning and spec'd power cords are not going to sound audibly different? Anyone who has studied philosophy understands that KNOW is a heavyweight word. I don't KNOW. But if there were audible differences the physical effects that caused the audible differences - that we can't currently explain -would surely show up as anomalies in other areas where low-level currents or signals are incredibly important. (They are not in 120v AC power.) Microchip design, test equipment, 10GHz bit-serial signalling on copper cables... somewhere. And nothing has been detected. Sometimes you need really, really clean power, but you use active devices to achieve it. Our ears are not sensitive devices compared to certain test equipment. Some people don't want to believe it, but it is true.
So in the end, yes, I'm pretty damn certain. |
This thread has gotten pretty boring. I also noticed a few of my responses are missing. (Sorry, Albert. I know you look so forward to them.)
Frankly, I'm going to miss you guys. One thing that might interest you though, my wife, a relatively accomplished musician, wants me to demo some power cables for her. She wants to see what all of the fuss is about. So I'm going to talk to some dealers and see if I can get a couple loaners for the amps. We're not going to be home together for a few weeks, so this'll take a while. But if I can get the loaners I'll post and let you know what she thinks. When we do the test I'll blindfold her so at least she won't know what she's listening to. It ain't double-blind, but we can't have my skeptical looks influencing her.
Have a great holiday. |
OK, the pre-amp and the CD player it is, rather than the amps. |
Tbg, I have no intention of buying a power cord. My wife wanted to see if she could hear a difference. She knows I think she's wasting her time, but she read some of the high-emotion responses to my posts and wants to hear for herself. Local dealers are willing to lend out cables, and I'll just take them up on offers they make anytime I go shopping. It's no big deal.
Like the quote said, put on your thinking cap. And, like Albert, take a reading lesson, then read the posts. I think differences in power cables and outlets, cryo'd or not, are an illusion, and nothing posted here - NOTHING - has changed my mind a bit. I've experimented and heard nothing, and that's because there's no difference to hear. I'm indulging my wife's curiosity, nothing else. |
