Eldartford. Do you agree that if the electrical signal is identical, the sound is identical? NO, I do not. If that were the case this would be a better amp than I have. Much better specifications than my Air Tight ATM-3. http://www.dealtime.com/xPF-Kenwood_KAC_8151D |
Eldartford, does that mean you agree with Irvrobinson? |
So, you mean to say you think your statement is correct? If they were real changes in the electrical signals going to the speakers, they could be measured, and they would have a technically identified cause. And if your answer is yes, how do you explain the fact that a half dozen NOS tubes that measure identical (electrically), sound completely different? It appears you are saying, if it can't be measured it cannot be audible. I think you know better than that. As for Irvrobinson, he may be like some that have already passed this way and are now gone, those that came to Audiogon to argue without any concept of the importance of every part in a high end system. |
Your opinions are as valid as the next but they are misguided.
I grow tired of people with scientific background that think that all things audio can be explained with graphs and numbers. I am an artist by trade and only care about getting the music right.
The advantage I have is an open mind and I am not afraid to experiment. I am also not ashamed when my opinions prove wrong. All that matters is getting my system closer to the original event.
Some equipment that is supposed to be superior (and may even have better numbers), prove not to be in the real world. Some things that should not be important, matter a great deal.
Reminds me of my days in automobile racing where someone shows up with a machine with all "the right parts" and gets his clock cleaned by some kid with a home built and tweaked engine.
If you cannot hear power cords or outlets, your system is simply not up to the task.
Should travel bring you to the Dallas, Ft. Worth area I can show you clearly with a single demo on my amplifiers. One pair of power cords from Dominus to stock and it will be clear for you. It's simply not up for discussion in my system.
I suppose you can take some joy in not having to spend the money. |
The sound is hard to measure objectively, but the electrical signal, or the difference between two signals, is capable of unambiguous and precise measurement. Which results in only the measurement, not what it will sound like. By the way, I corrected your misspelling of the word "unambigious" for clarity. I don't believe we know how to measure everything we hear. I am not saying it cannot be measured "someday" but not right now. I came to this conclusion after listening to thousands of pieces of equipment and reading the advertised and measured specifications. A perfect example of science not imitating art is the ongoing project to measure every parameter of a Stradivarius, even down to the aging of the varnish. The goal is to build a perfect modern version. So far it has failed. We are unable to recreate what was done because (current) precise measurements of all the parts does not reveal everything we need to know. Rather than argue that a power cord can't work, how about hooking up one and giving it a listen? I have tweaks in my system that are the absolute best available and cost $5.00 or $10.00, unfortunately I also discover some that cost a great deal more. Either way, I use what works and care little about the claims or specifications except as information. A perfect example is the Kenwood amp I linked to. 1000 watts and lower distortion than any amp I own. I would bet money it sucks in my system. |
Now I suppose you're going to tell me that if I got rid of the, ahem, non-audiophile interconnects and speaker cables I could hear the difference when I switched power cables (which I just did a few months ago). Certainly my friend David thought so. If you agree with him I recommend a BS in Physics. I don't know if you would benefit from a superior power cable or not, regardless of your choice of interconnect and speakers cables. Your quality standards and system performance are both unknown to me. As already mentioned, you can have all the right names for gear and still not get excellent performance. Manufacturers prove that every January at CES. If you listened with the dozen or so members of my audio group you would have no choice but to drop the BS about the BS. Your Physics degree (if you have one) is no more valuable in evolving a sound system than an engineering or business degree would be. In fact, I would trust the member of my group with a Grammy award on his fireplace mantle, a trained classical musician who knows nothing about Physics. He listened to Purist power cables and invested in them the next day. The source he choose for the audition was one of his master tapes. |
Eldartford., I wish it were so. My system is the culmination of years of investing, selling and trading. Much of what I have would not be possible had I not done photography for many of the high end audio manufacturers.
As for outlets, I have avoided comments on that topic and you know why. Lets just say that each must make up their own mind on that subject. |
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Darrylhifi, the answer is, your electrician is not mentally restricted by a degree in Physics. He is able to consider the fact that something that cannot be measured can be heard.
Irvrobinson, as for me being "duped" by comparisons, it must be a ten year hallucination and affecting tens of dozens of people who visit here. I am truly frustrated by your ignorance. |
Eldartford, Albertporter...The notion that a degree in physics inhibits thought takes the cake. I am simply applying Irvrobinsons version of the truth and arriving at a logical conclusion. His degree is obviously an impediment. He refers to it, clings to it and tells us we need a BS in it, then describes measurements with volt-ohm meters as though they were the last word on this topic. Worse, he believes we should stand in awe of his degree and accept his words of wisdom in spite of our own experiences and what has been proven in real world tests. I suggest he contact Jeff Rowland, Richard Vandersteen, Tube Research, Kharma, McCormack audio and others that are misguided into believing that cable (including power cords) make a difference. I'll bet they are waiting by their phones to be "saved." Perhaps you could help him by dialing the phone for him? |
I don't mind those who venture into the forums at Audiogon and say, "I prefer Nordost over Purist and Cardas." Or, "I tried a NBS power cord on my CD player and although it was better, I did not feel it was worth the investment."
Those are honest experiences, regardless if you agree or disagree with their conclusion.
What angers me are the "specification and numbers" types that have nothing better to do than smugly report that the sum of ALL our experience is an aberration because it was not covered in school.
I do not advocate anyone buy expensive cables, that is something each of us must decide for ourselves. THAT decision should be made in the end users system, based on listening. |
Irvrobinson, That machine we are both "pecking" on is partially the development of Texas Instruments, of which several of their key people are friends of mine. I have been doing photography for them for nearly 20 years. Here is the fuel cell press release for Jack Harrod, an avid audiophile and another person suffering from hallucinations of purchasing Purist power cables. http://www.mhtx.com/media_center/pressrelease8.htmJack lives in a multimillion dollar home with original art work, including one Pablo Picasso. He has a fabulous sound system. Likely one you would not approve of because it is all tube and has high end cable throughout. Between Jack and our Grammy award winning musician, we have some real catching up to do to equal our resident Physics genus. By the way, Jack tried to use a volt-ohm meter to verify the quality of the Picasso. It did not read 100 on the meter so we are now afraid to enjoy it for fear we have been duped. |
Eldartford,
The reason I ignored your comparison to Leonardo da Vinci is that we are dealing with decidedly smaller minds here. My comments did not include the great creators and artists who's worth has been proven by history, but rather observations of the dogmatic people at hand.
Leonardo da Vinci would not be debating these points, he would be designing, drawing and experimenting to discover the path to greatness, regardless of personal cost.
My anger is directed at those who take the stance, "Everything that effects the music can be measured." A point of view that leaves no room for discovery or creativity.
How can you assume you know everything there is to know about scientific measurement? Even if you take the path of using (proven) measurements at hand, do you then dismiss all discoveries that fall outside of what we currently know?
If something works on a consistent and repeatable basis and we cannot apply a number or measurement to it, we have work to do in the field of measurement. I prefer thinking we have more to learn, not that we know it all.
As for my being able to afford whatever I want, you are terribly wrong. I would wager what little money I have, both you and Irvrobinson have more money and less debt than I do.
The difference between us the level of passion in what we believe.
I will do without many personal items and all luxuries to make my music the best it can be. That requires all the pieces I have in my system, including audiophile cables. I doubt you have that commitment and because those details are not worth that level of personal investment, you dismiss it.
I think Irvrobinson just likes to argue, it has nothing to do with passion and certainly not anything to do with making his system better.
Odd that some come to Audiogon, a decidedly high end audio site and completely dismiss an entire range of product used and respected by every major high end audio manufacturer in the business. |
Eldartford, know a guy who claims that his dog can talk. He has all the nitty gritty details...the dog speaks Spanish, and with a Cuban accent, and often quotes poetry. The damn dog just barks at me, but the guy swears it's true. Should I believe him? If dozens of people hear the dog on multiple occasions over a period of a decade, yes. Here is a perfect example. A guy sees a sign "Talking Dog for Sale." He rings the door bell and the owner tells him the dog is in the back yard. The guy goes into the back yard and sees a mutt sitting there. "You talk?" he asks. "Yep, that's me," the mutt replies. "So, what's your story?" The dog looks up and says, "Well, I discovered my gift pretty young and I wanted to help the government, so I told the CIA about my talent, and in no time they had me jetting from country to country, sitting in rooms with spies and world leaders, because no one figured a dog would be eavesdropping. I was one of their most valuable spies eight years running. I couldn't tell you how many wars I helped prevent. But, the jetting around really tired me out, and I knew I wasn't getting any younger and I wanted to settle down. So I signed up for a job at the airport to do some undercover security work, mostly wandering near suspicious characters and listening in. I uncovered some incredible dealings there ... and was awarded a batch of medals. Had a wife, a mess of puppies, and now I'm just retired." The guy is amazed. He goes into the house and asks the owner what he wants for the dog. "Ten bucks and he's yours," the owner says. "But this dog is amazing!" the guy exclaims. "Why on earth are you selling him and why so cheap?" "He's such a liar, he never did any of those things." |
Like certain Audiogon members, the owner of the dog was more concerned with what the dog said (specifications) than the fact he could speak. |
Darrylhifi Has anyone ever actually listened to a high end system in a hospital ? Those long marble halls must have great acoustics. Your right about the marble halls Darryl. Unknown to many folks, the song made famous by Elvis Presley "Hound Dog" was recorded at Graceland Nursing Center in Memphis while doing a benefit gig for the old folks. The halls provided the desired amount of echo and is evidence of the first crying and talking dog . You aint nothin but a hound dog
Cryin all the time.
You aint nothin but a hound dog
Cryin all the time.
Well, you aint never caught a rabbit
And you aint no friend of mine.
When they said you was high classed,
Well, that was just a lie.
When they said you was high classed,
Well, that was just a lie.
You aint never caught a rabbit
And you aint no friend of mine. Elvis may have passed on, but the truth about talking dogs and excellence of aftermarket power cords lives on (unless you unplug them and set a Physics book on top of them). |
Eldartford, that explanation is a fraction of what occurs when electricity passes through wire. In fact, I think next to proper gauge for the conductor, possibly the most important thing is the insulation.
Insulation can store energy and release it in non linear ways and various layers between the conductor (and outer jacket we see) can have a huge effect on sound.
A perfect example is Purist Audio power cables, which I am so fond of. The conductor is approximately 10 gauge and constructed with a mix of metals that have proven to provide excellent results.
My argument is NOT that Purist Audio's mix of metals is so proprietary that Audioquest or Shunyata (or whoever) cannot duplicate it, but rather the shielding, grounding and isolation from vibration, EMI and RF are of equal or greater importance.
Most of the time plugging in such a cable results in a blacker background with a more relaxed presentation and improved textures and resolution.
To understand this, you need to view the power cable as PART OF THE POWER SUPPLY rather than an extension of the Romex in the wall.
If you assume your AC power is perfect and your power supply in your stereo gear is immune to EVERY POSSIBLE contamination, then possibly the power cord will have less effect. However, there is still the issue of vibration.
For that reason, there is more than one audiophile manufacturer that addresses that problem in the construction of their power cables.
The energy drawn through the wires moves the wire vibrating it. A perfect example is caused by strobe lighting used in my photo business. The capacitors in the power packs sometimes causes the walls of buildings to "talk" back every time a burst of energy is drawn.
This power draw through the conduit is powerful enough to "bang" the conduit against the wall. I have had this happen hundreds of times over the last 30 years, even in high rise commercial properties.
In the last ten years I have seen almost no situations where a premium power cord did not help the equipment it was plugged into. Differences in design from manufacturer certainly provide an array of results, some of which I find desirable and some I do not.
To say that they effect in no way is absurd. In fact I hear differences between different brands of male wall plugs. Most often this manifests itself as tonal balance changes but sometimes as distortion. I assume this has to do with conductivity, vibration, and clamping action.
It's all important and cannot be measured with a volt ohm meter or resistance specifications. |
