Honest Experience on Effects of Subwoofer Please

@mijostyn --

+1

Many a sub(s) implementation appear strikingly meager, malnourished and of secondary consideration in its overall implementation. I'm guessing it's that mentality again; why have a couple or further multitude of (sub-)bass behemoths lying around in the listening space when you can have all but one the size of a small cathouse?

Because it isn't only about extension, but rather, as you so rightly point out, it's also and not least about the added sensation of power and effortlessness of presentation to instill that live feel of music, including the contribution from the main speakers here when properly high-passed.

And yet, what is it about "hi-fi" that very generally turns its back on the inherent power delivery and (truer) size of music and instead relegates it to something brute, unsophisticated and undesirable? You'd certainly think that the way this vital aspect of music reproduction is sorely dismissed either (and mostly) in silence and vehement reluctance, or even downright ridicule.

Anyone can feel free to implement subs the way they see fit, that really goes without saying, but augmenting the mains run full-range with smaller subs is really only the tip of the iceberg. Perhaps it points to the need for a more radical and re-defined approach in speaker implementation that should more readily see the acceptance of DSP and active configuration, in addition to letting size of speakers and subs have its say. The latter part has been stubbornly missed out for decades, so one wonders whether it will ever find any real traction with audiophiles at large.

It seems the way it works is that if you can't go the whole nine yards with regard to physics then make it appear that not doing so is actually to the benefit of sound reproduction; indeed, it becomes a rationale in itself. 

@wolf_garcia --

A lot of silliness get passed around with topics like this one, and all bloviating aside, subs aren't that difficult to set up, more than one helps tame standing waves but one sounds much better than none, and don't be afraid to try 'em. I have a few older RELs (no high pass nonsense needed) bought used and they're great. 

...

.. I have decades of experience in studios and live concerts as a musician and live sound mixer, and am baffled by how baffled some are with this stuff, and the noted complexity some need to yammer about doesn't help anybody.

On the second paragraph: you may have given yourself the answer without realizing it; not everybody has "decades of experience in studios and live concerts as a musician and live sound mixer," which otherwise would've likely given them a head start implementing subs in the home setup. 

Re: first paragraph: it's not really about "complexity," but rather what you choose to go with and how you intend to do it. Being very experienced yourself with sound mixing both in studios and at a live concert milieu while having a bunch of REL's (whether they're used or new is besides the point, btw) to play around with, isn't a bad outset by any means. REL's would seem easier to implement in an existing setup compared to other sub brands, and combined with your experience in the field you're dealt a good hand here. I'd say that's not necessarily representative of most who're about to go the sub(s) route?

I wouldn't discourage anyone from throwing themselves into sub(s) usage, but I would like to tell them of a way to implement subs that deviates from small, inefficient cubes augmenting main speakers run fall range. High-passing the main speakers isn't "nonsense" but can have obvious advantages, and going with big, higher eff. subs in more numbers than one lends further, potential advantages to boot. Where it might get more complex is going active, but who says everything comes with the snap of your fingers?

Going even further with DSP's and perhaps bass management (as outlined by poster @mijostyn above) can add to integrational bliss, and so while very good results can be had without bending backwards per the more typical or popular way to integrate subs, it is to some a mere starting point going way back in their subs voyage. 

It's like hitting someone on the head for going other ways, god forbid with the intention to raise the bar perhaps even further. It's not bloviating or arrogance, but simply sharing experience others might appreciate exploring for themselves. Make of it what you will. 

@music_is_life --

SUbs are easy to set up. 

That's just rallying for your position. To some it may be, out of luck or other, but it's certainly not a default outcome. In any case: however high the bar is set may be the achievement one sees fit. 

@mijostyn --

Well put. 

@lonemountain --

Ad 1). Don't see how that applies here. If subs are successfully implemented I'd only want them to reflect the variation in source material. It's about what becomes your "axis mundi" for setting the reference gain, and the rest really falls into place from here in my experience. 

Ad 2). Sure, below the Schroeder frequency the resonating nature of sound waves becomes an important factor with regard to placement and how to avoid the most severe nulls and peaks. It can be a balancing act using both digital bass management and a more pure acoustical approach of placement and sub numbers. In my dual sub setup with a higher cross-over between the subs and mains, symmetry of placement is paramount, and corner loading, while not always ideal acoustically, lends itself naturally both with regard to proximity and symmetry to the mains, while also taking advantage of boundary gain. I could successfully add two more subs for an even smoother acoustical response, but that's for future plans to come.

Ad 3).

I'm guessing this is the potential rub many are confronted with here; leaving the mains running full-range and then trying to blend in subs (slightly overlapping or not) is really dealing with two separate systems - with all that entails. 

I can understand some of the reasoning behind why many wouldn't want to employ a high-pass filter digitally over their passively configured main speakers, hereby adding another filter layer - albeit a sonically more transparent one compared to passive filters, to my ears - to an existing passive one, which is where I would suggest a more radical approach; without a HP running the mains full-range can integrate quite well with subs (I've used such a configuration years back), but my current approach high-passing the mains is done fully actively with a digital XO sans any passive cross-over, and as such is really dealt with as a 3-way system with the subs in close proximity to the mains. Every cross-over section, especially where horns are used, involves dealing with delay elaborately and eventually fine-tuned by ear, so the high-passing part of the mid-woofers is no different an aspect than high-passing the compression driver above them - or the subs for that matter just below the knee (i.e.: tune) to protect the drivers due to unloading. This is the radical nature I'm referring to above, because it's done considering the system incl. the (sub-)bass section as a whole.   

Implemented as such remember the mid-woofers will be relieved of LF which, certainly when HP'ed above 70-80Hz, equates into a cleaner presentation and bigger headroom - up to 10dB's, even. That's significant and audible for the better when carefully implemented. 

Ad 4). Why not take the next step and make it multiple larger subs?

Ad 5). I rarely encounter high-pass filters between subs and mains higher than ~125Hz. In my own setup the high-pass is set just below 85Hz, which is dictated by the upper end response of my tapped horns. I try to avoid extensive EQ'ing, but I guess I could stretch that HP a bit more towards 100Hz with some minor corrections.  

Ad 6). It's delay settings galore on my Xilica DSP. 

Ad 7). Using the ears is always the last measure here. 

Ad 8). You still hear the half and quarter waves of a 20Hz tone in moderately sized listening room, albeit with lesser clarity vs. the full wavelength due to room interaction. 20-25Hz in not in vain by any measure in my moderately sized listening space.