Holographic Soundstage ?

In my experience computer audio suffers from a lot of noise inside the computer.

You are probably right for those who use computer without decreasing their electrical noise floor...

But i use computer and my imaging, soundstage fill the room and with appropriate recording even  include the listener on the scene...

But save for vibrations controls and electrical noise floor controls, the more underestimated factor is the acoustic controls...

And acoustic controls is not passive material treatment only with absorbing, diffusive and reflective surface.... It is more than that..... Without that my soundstage, imaging, timbre experience and listener envelopment and source width will be poor....With that i control them at will....

In my experience the room’s acoustics is perhaps the most important factor in soundstage imaging. Side wall reflections can muddy an image as can sound waves coming from the rear wall and front corners.. Before I chased different equipment I’d tame the beast that your system lives in

exactly right...

Save the early and late reflections must be tamed not necessarily erased,but advanced or absorbed or retarded , they must be synchronized, then absorbing methods are relative to each situation and need to be experienced.... In my case i control all acoustic factors with also a controls of reflections from side and back.....We play with milliseconds factors here detectable by the listenings experiments...

Back reflections will play a positive role in listener envelopment factor this is demonstrated... All is a quesion of balance and timing thresholds....

Acoustic is not most think it is like buying costly materials and think they are done because the sound is good....

If you have not a room 3-d filled with sound NOT coming from spealers but an holographic volume encompassing and even including you in many recordings, you are not done.... And at the end instrument and voices timbre must sound natural ....

@mahgister,


I know you like to tinker and I see a computer on that desk that perhaps can generate some delayed signals. You may enjoy this experiment from Linkwitz:


https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Watson/watson.htm


He has a fair number of good easy to understand articles on how we perceive location as well.

Thanks for this interesting link....

I said after learning about crosstalk in 2 channel playback that you may want to pull out those headphones. You have not done the first step yet, and already making conclusions about the second step.


https://smyth-research.com/ https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1959366850/realiser-a16-real-3d-audio-headphone-processor


I will leave the research on the rest up to you.

I already know about this technology only 6,000 canadian dollars... 😊

Even if it could be  better than what i have, like having a real very good 5 channel erasing completely the speakers in a virtual space, it is too much money for me...

And i am proud of my " mechanical equalizer" result at peanuts cost...

But think about that , i listen to orchestral or piano classical and the instruments are already in my room....

Thanks to psychoacoustic...

Then..... I never doubt that exist better gear than mine.... Or better way to use headphones like the Smyth realizer...

But with basic acoustic i smile listening any system at any price on youtube....Some are better than mine but not with an ocean between me and them...

The most important factor is not quality, it is the ratio Quality/price....

i dont want the best because i cannot afford it...

I want the best ratio quality/price and i have it already at 500 bucks...


This is why i was interested by psychoacoustic..... I develop my idea discussing with you when you argued about imaging, not realizing that acoustic is even more important than speakers specs...it was my impression then.... I dont know you then perhaps i am wrong...

i decided to use Helmholtz ideas with the 3 japan researchers experiments results with timing thresholds i read at this time...

i succeed...

My headphones (without the 6000 bucks Smyth realizer for sure) will stay in my drawer....


Anyway thank you for your kind answer and theinteresting promising  link....

My best to you....

You may even be inclined at that point to pull out your headphones.

I perhaps overestimated your knowledge a bit here...

Your last sentence is all i must know...

I dont doubt the superior possibilities of electronic tech in headphone....But it was not my point....

My point was a comparison between my Helmholtz grid against a processor in room acoustic control....

It is impossible for me to go back to any of my headphone now.... They are not on par with my room control...

It is easy to verify connecting any one of them:

3 dynamics, 2 Stax, one hybrid, 1 magneplanar..

They are all different, but not on par with my 2 positions of listening in my room...They have all of them their own good and bad points but they all lack natural timbre experience and livelier sound compared to my room.... ALL.... And any  characterics they had more than my room before my acoustic control i had it now with my acoustic control in my room in a more natural way....


The fact that you say the opposite to me, and ask me to go back to headphones, reveal that you dont own a good room, or perhaps you own the best headphone there is and the costlier....

I will stay "ignorant" it seems... With my ears open tough....

I suggest learning about what the cross-talk issue is w.r.t. 2 channel audio and locating sounds and then you will understand why room acoustics cannot solve this.

If the recording engineer recorded the sounds of a cd or a files in some way with ANY three dimensional effects and directions, i listen  already to them in my room.... then  i dont look about locating sound better than i did alreadsy with my room controls.... Why doubting my results?

I think it is you who have no idea how i used my distribution of resonators in relation with my EARS and EACH speaker in an asymmetric way in my room ....




I know you know more than me in audio...

But knowing more is not knowing BETTER in all cases...

Meditate this....

I will read about what you just suggest anyway....

Thanks for your answer....

Because you don’t have it. You may think you do, but you do not. No matter what you do with acoustics, you cannot do what is required to accomplish this. Time to learn more about this before typing. You will save a lot of typing.

I know that you are more knowledgeable than me and most in audio by a more than a small margin...

I hope that in spite of our different perspectives you smell the difference between me and some others....

BUT instead of explaining why i am supposed to be deluded you dismiss my experience...It is not enough....Sorry....We do not discuss "directed wiring" here... But the relation of acoustic with improvement of perception and the use of mechanical distributed Helmholtz resonators versus electronical means...I dont pretend that my solution is perfect it is not... But efficient at no cost it is....




I just listened the same files someone here proposed like a test and i lived the same perceptive experience or something near it because i am not frustrated about what he described and what i experience...

my remarks are only linked to a question: what acoustic control can do on par or better than Carver c9 ? it is a question but i had the impression that i lack nothing about all acoustical factors which other described.... I even prefer my grid to the synergetic research processor i listened to on many video on youtube....Anyway my ratio S.Q. /price is very high compared to them .... 😁

Explain to me why not? instead of dismissing without justification....

By the way my grid of Helmholtz resonators are not distributed randomly and i used the tweeter wavefront of one speaker and the bass driver of the other speaker to help my ears recreate the sense of space.... And contrary to a crosstalk control device i can work with "timbre perception" .... In my acoustic experience all factors like imaging, soundstage, LEV, are all linked in a kind of acoustical trade-off which i control with fine tuning mechanically the volume/neck ratio, the length.... It is not perfect but spectacular and sound natural to me....

Why not trying to recreate this "headphone effect" about imaging and listener envelopment (LEV) instead of using electronical cross talk control with a mechanichal acoustic control?

It is possible if i have it....

For sure 32 helmholtz pipes and tubes in a living room and some devices near the tweeter of one speaker and the bass driver of the other one are not esthetical either....

But all my 7 headphones are in the drawers definitively.... 😊

I can control "timbre perception experience" with my grid of Helmholtz devices, not only soundstage or LEV, could i with an electronical Carver c9 ? The experience of a more natural timbre perception is more important for me than anything but a system without holographic imaging filling the room is without appeal at all...Speakers must vanish in a good system....

In fact an out pof phase signals added will not make us able to control or correct the timbre experience in a specific room.... Then..... It is only an artificial device for the imaging and soundstage perception... It is not enough if your room/ speakers are not totally already adapted  and able to give you a natural "timbre" experience already...My grid give me that.... Passive material treatment of my room was not enough...there is a relation between the acoustic factors linked to timbre and imaging and soundstage.... It is difficult to reach the right timing of the wavefronts to the ears....But with my grid the "tiniest" tuning is possible...

This is a low price device the carver c9 indeed, and i am curious to try one if i could look for one some day, but after what i experience now, it seems i dont need it at all...

It’s almost scary when a recording has sounds coming at you at 45 degrees away from the center channel. Literally straight in from the left and right. (try Madonna - Vogue for that one).

Same experience with the Madonna thanks....

My speakers are smaller than yours....My room is 13 feet squared but irregular.... With a difficult position of the speakers it takes me time to correct...   Mission Cyrus 781.... Very good but not pricey speakers....

For me acoustic matter more than speakers if the speakers are "relatively good" for sure....

Regards...

The artist, F.K.A. Twigs. The song, Pendulum. This song has sounds from a huge sound stage plus.... sounds moving back and forth above and behind my head. No recording has ever done this for me and it is mind blowing.

I am very interested by this discussion...

I just listen, writing this, to this files "pendulum"... Thanks.... 😊

I Listen to the same sonic experience than you...

But i dont own a carver nor any holographic processor...

I cannot compare for sure my experience with yours...

But it mimic completely your description...

My system is average and good...

But i a devised mechanical equalizer, with discarded materials from my basement, which use each direct front wave of each speakers asymmetrically, i had the tweeter of one speaker near two of my Helmholtz tubes and the bass driver of the other speaker near three Helmholtz other different tubes.... I distribute 32 tubes and pipes with variable and orientable neck in precise locations in the room .. I am very proud of this creation i stumble on psychoacoustic research paper about timing thresholds experiments and that give me the idea....

My room is already treated by me with passive materials with reflective and absorbing and dispersive surfaces, all homemade.... The ears guided me.... It take a long time tough to reach a good balance.... But listening experiments was fun...

I fine tuned them by listening on a month period, like fine tuning a piano...

There is no comparison between before and after...

I am glad that reading your post and trying this file that confirm my experiment with room controls...

I cannot say that my listening correspond exactly to your experience but your description fit mine...

I never bought anything nor any tweaks, i was not loose in money and created all my devices homemade with basic psychoacoustic facts for room controls...

Amazing file thanks...

Try this opera.... You will be surprized by the genius of the recording engineer.... I see the singers walking and turning their heads while singing  in the studio.... And Often their voices come completely from my back .... They walked singing all around me....


The youtube file is better than average youtube but it is better with the original for sure...Anyway you can use the youtube to test your carver...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR33bL5aNTk&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_CvjtOvZypmfmC4ygxSxOgm&index=53&t=95s

Let me know of your experience with this opera if you will.... Thanks

Interesting..... thanks....

Go buy a pair of tannoys If you want holographic...I use mine with class A solid state, sugden.

it was my gear for 15 years !...

What people name holographic impression exist...

The problem is the level of holography...

!0 or 25 % and the people say: i have holography...

But it is my experience and experiment with acoustic and psychoacoustic....

You need to controls vibrations of the speakers, electrical noise floor of the house and ESPECIALLY acoustic control not only material passive treatment...bUt the room with active Helmholtz resonators...

I am sorry for the bad news...

The good news is you have an idea of holographic with this pairing because the Tannoy dual concentric were even better than what i own now...

But what i have now is under acoustic control and give me more than the Tannoy even if it is a notch under their quality...

Acoustic is the most important tool in audio .....

Another direction to go for depth of sound stage specifically: audiokenesis sound generator horns... rear-firing add-on speakers: they work (in my system).

For sure they are based on the "timing" between late and early reflection and particularly back reflection...

But it is possible to use the right material passive treatment and the right active controls with Helmholtz resonators at no cost to generate this space....Without speaker addition....But it is less esthetical...

I prefer solution at no cost anyway...  😊

I enjoy holographic imaging, soundstage filling of my room and listener envelopment factor with a 500 bucks system...

Control vibration yes, and decrease electrical grid noise floor...

BUT mainly my results are related to acoustic controls of my room...

Then many factors enter the equations.... But acoustic is one important factor....