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High quality subwoofer - which one?

I’ve owned my C4’s for about six months now, and they are excellent. But, you can’t ask a speaker to things it isn’t big enough to do. What that is, is to go FLAT to 20 Hz. The Vandersteen Quatro’s had built-in 250 watt class B powered subwoofers that are to die for once you hear them. The blemish on the Quatros, and it is a small one, was the slightly veiled lower midrange. The C4’s are absolutely seamless everywhere they go. The lowest bass can be fixed and most would probably say it’s not even necessary...until you hear a real sub system that is. Once you hear the effortlessly smooth low-end of a dedicated sub woofer you just can’t forget about it.

I started looking at subwoofers, and they are expensive, but relative to what this hobby’s cost(s) can be on some item(s), they are affordable. Well, ONE is affordable, anyway. I have three models that seem to all be nice products, and was curious what the feet on the street have used and your likes / dislikes. One model that I have not included needs an external hi-pass filter and I may be dismissing this model out of hand…and shouldn’t be and if you use this model, convince me.

I have a pretty large room (16’ wide x 40’ long x 8.5’ high (ceiling is split at 7.5’ and 9’)) so a bigger sub may be needed. Right now, I’m thinking ONE sub crossed-over pretty low. The C4’s do go pretty deep, but I probably agree that two would be “best” but expensive and the narrower room might make double placement hard. One is a snap, between the speakers away from the wall or near the right corner. I do not play “loud” (80-85 dB SPL average based on my radio shack SPL meter) but still like the smooth deep bass of a sub. Crazy loud isn’t the issue, but the sound quality is.

The choices are mind boggling in cost (JL Audio in mono or stereo) or mono (VELODYNE DD15+) verses stereo (SVS PB13 Ultra) set-ups at the same price. I have three options below to illustrate this.

The set-up that seems too expensive but outrageously good;
JL Audio Fathom f113 - $3600.00 / 13” / 2500 watts peak class D amplifier / sealed box.
But the sub needs a high-pass Cross-over like a Bryston 10B-STD @ $3,500.00

This is expensive compared to the SVS, but is it better than TWO SVS units?
Velodyne DD15 Plus - $4,000.00 / 15.0” / 1250 watt continuous class D amplifier / sealed box.

This seems like a good price but is the product good enough even if the price is? Use TWO of these in place of one DD15 Plus?
SVS PB13-Ultra - $2,000.00 / 13.5” / 1000 watts continuous class D / ported box.

So what have we done with subwoofers and why? This got real complicated real fast. Ported, vented, stereo at the same price as a mono sub ETC. The odds of auditioning these monsters are about zero as you hear the room. My room seems to be pretty good down low based on my Quatro set-up with powered subs. If a decision isn’t easy, I’m missing something…a lot of something’s it turns out.
rower30

Showing 3 responses by johnnyb53

johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 

I ended up contacting JL Audio tech support to get more detailed information about setting the sub up for optimal performance. I was told by Barry that playing speakers full range and crossing the sub at the lowest octave would result in mish mash. He indicated that the best way to do it is to cross the sub at 80 hz using an external crossover, thus freeing up the main speakers.

I think he's overstating the case. The lack of a high pass filter doesn't necessarily result in "mish mash" any more than a 2-1/2-way speaker system results in mish mash. It's the same principle at work. There are many exemplary 2-1/2-way systems in which extra woofers are brought in to reinforce an essentially 2-way speaker system without high-passing the rest of the system. Many 2-1/2-way systems are famously well blended and coherent.
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 

04-11-12: Erndog
Johnnyb53- My experience is that everybody has an opinion about everything and so I take it with a grain of salt. The experience I trust is when I try different things and to hear how that sounds in my system with my ears. Only you can say what will work best in your system.

Absolutely right. Barry is probably playing the odds as far as what generally works well, but there are so many variables that in the end you have to match the sub to your speakers, your room, your speaker and sub placement, etc.

For example, sealed vs. ported mains: sealed speakers have a 12 db/octave rolloff; ported ones something more like 18-24. Which one is easier to blend? Depends on the sub's crossover point and curve. Ported? Front or back? How close to the wall? If rear-firing port close to the wall, Barry's right. If front firing and the speaker is out from the wall, you can probably get a good blend. As you point out, you can damp or plug a port but don't know if it'll hurt or help until you try.

I've heard sub integrations with a high pass to the mains and others without. Sometimes the high pass is better (e.g., to the B&W PM-1's with 4-1/2" woofer) and sometimes without (Magnepan 20.1 or my Mirage OMD-15).

Have you thought about a Dynaudio Sub 600? Claimed freq response is -3dB at 18 Hz and includes a high pass filter settable to 60 or 80Hz or bypass.
johnnyb53
3,510 posts
 
I've heard and implemented a fair number of subs with both stereo and 5- and 7-channel surround. I have four subs active in my house right now and implemented two different subs over time on my neighbor's 2.1 system.

Based on the subs I've heard, if you can afford the JL f113, get it! Bear in mind that as good as a single JL sub is, two are better. I heard a setup of Maggie 20.1s flanked by a pair of JL F212s and the integration is seamless.

If you're doing 2.1, especially with something that can handle the dynamics and power handling of your Dynaudios, don't obsess over sending a high pass signal to the Dynaudios. You will get a smoother, more musical blend if you simply let them run full-range and use the sub(s) to fill out the bottom octave with the sub crossover set at 30-50 Hz depending on the speakers' capabilities and the room's acoustics. The C4s spec down to 27 Hz and power handling is rated at 400 watts. They're big boys designed to handle full-range signal even if they don't give you all the sub-30 Hz output you're looking for. When you're adding a sub to mini-satellites with 4-1/2" woofers, a high pass filter makes some sense, but for C4 floorstanders, not so much.

In home theater I *do* use high pass to the surrounds, but that is for handling the dynamic range of effects soundtracks--explosions, crashes, etc. For a musical blend, you're better off not adding yet one more network filter to the signal sent to your mains.

Given SVS's 45-day eval/return period and one-year full-credit upgrade program, you might want to start with a pair of SVS's and see if they give you what you want. One nice thing about the SVS's you're looking at is that you can choose any one of four different low end rolloff profiles depending on whether you leave all three ports open or use the supplied plugs to stop one, two, or all three ports. You may find that plugging all ports gives you a smoother low end curve and more ultimate extension for music.

I have a friend who uses the sealed compact SVS with his Maggies and he's very pleased with it.
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