What are its musical and sonic benefits? and what other supports have you compared it to?
Did it improve PRaT, staging,dynamics,articulation, tonality,harmonic structure,resolution,coherence,etc and to what degree? Did you notice any negative impacts on the music?What other support systems have you compared it to?
Thanks. |
Hi Sean,
Devil's advocate? Nah, party pooper is more like it;0)
I regularly read at various fora,similar well meaning recommendations and instructions for the Flexy and its variants and sometimes I just can't contain myself.
These things aren't truely awful,it's just that most of the folks posting on their successess in building them have never heard what a really good support can do.
The better supports should easily up the performance of a system a full level in musical accomplishment,the best of them much more.
The Flexy's & Salamander's of the world(ie-threaded rod racks) are just tall spacers to keep components off the floor and each other.
They aren't actively bad.They just don't do anything worthwhile.
I responded in this example because of the remark that the poster (thoughtfully) mentions that this DIY project cost less than $100.
That amounts to a sizeable portion of money that could be better spent toward a dedicated support(new or used) that will actually improve the performance of one's system and bring the listener another step closer to the performance.
Best,
Ken
GreaterRanges/Neuance
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Fire away,Sean. Feel free to e mail me or post here.I'll help in any way I can.
Best,
Ken |
Hi Ohlala,
My original response was not meant to dismiss Dave43's commendable, informative and well-meaning posting.He properly referred to the plans as "equipment racks" rather than isolation stands and I had hoped that my original response, while pointed, was not derogatory nor mean- spirited.
My reply is a reaction to the cummulative damage that the TNT Flexy seems to have made on the internet hobbyist audio forums as a whole.
I read pretty regularly and have encountered many more than a few audiophiles who misstakenly assume that Flexy type threaded rod bolt-togethers(ESPECIALLY those reprehensible commercially marketed racks)offer a viable sonic benefit to their systems.Perhaps that might be so but only by comparison to the likes of Gusdorf and O'Sullivan "stereo cabinets".
In not one case that I have yet encountered has the individual ever actually made direct comparison against a properly engineered isolation support yet the Flexy design is perpetuated as a viable inexpensive DIY alternative for same(please note that the original poster made no such claims).
It was the intent of my original reply to advance the question of the posters performance experience with his Flexy variant.
I fully understand and wholly commend the intent of posting a solution for system display management at low expense.
Had these designs been touted only as a furniture piece/ equipment storage solution rather than as an isolation product,I would have no reason to enter my foil.
I regularly see available at AG and other classified boards pre-owned isolation products in the neighborhood of $175 to $250.
In fact,one can easily assemble a very good performing alternative with a few simple mods and stacking of IKEA Lack endtables for about the same amount as was spent on the Flexy variant(~$20/shelf).
I personally see the $100 spent on the DIY/Flexy project as money essentially squandered.I have no problem with DIY and really no problem with the Flexy as long as the individual knows what they should expect from it.
Best,
Ken
GreaterRanges/Neuance |
IKEA*lyte Modular Component Isolation Support-
IKEA's Lack endtables and coffeetables are constructed of an attractively finished natural wood laminates over an expanded foam and chipboard core.
This composition is of high strength, extremely low energy storing mass and has superb internal damping characteristics.Altho not designed as such,the construction details of IKEA Lack is that of a laminated constrained layer device.Conceptually,when the material is used as an isolation device,it is not far removed from Russ Andrews RATA Torlyte and my own Neuance performance shelving.
Due to the huge volume and modern manufacturing methods IKEA can sell completed endtable units in a variety of colours or natural wood veneers for $15 each ($20 for beech).No finishing is required for the construction of the IKEA*lyte modular isolation stand.
Changes in racking needs can be accomplished by the addition of other IKEA Lack "modules".
IKEA is available worldwide thru retail outlets and by mail order and the internet.
The sonic and musical performance of the IKEA*lyte will better many commercially available supports costing upwards of $500-600 or more, particularly in the areas of PRaT, note shaping and harmonic textures.Depending on the quality of the spiking used and care in installation, the IKEA*lyte will easily better Sanus,Salamander,Atlantis,Lovan,Billy Bags and many other respected and often costly support systems.
Typical cost for a completed 4 shelf IKEA*lyte rack should run approx. US $95-110 ,excluding tools and dependant on finish.
You will need -
(1) IKEA Lack endtable or coffeetable to be used as a Reference Base Platform.(The coffeetable is recommended for unstable flooring and the unused areas make a good location for outboard crossovers and power conditioning devices,powerstrips,etc.)
(1ea.) IKEA Lack endtable for EACH component shelf required.
(ie: a 4 component rack will require a total of 5 IKEA Lack tables, including the base unit)
also needed will be
-a length of 1/4" threaded rod for making spikes
plus matching drill and thread tap
a hacksaw for cutting the threaded rod
and a grinder for sharpening the spikes and to make flats
on each side of the threaded rod/spike for adjusting with
a wrench
-a saw for cutting down the legs for heigth(tablesaw preferred for accuracy)
I.Install 4 spikes to "Base Platform" where the legs would normally be attached and install on the floor,making sure of level and evenness.Do not press the spikes hard into the flooring,just let it settle.If you have heavy carpeting, pre-pierce the carpet with a sharp awl first.
II.Measure and carefully cut down the legs of each shelf module to allow clearance for each component & your favorite footer device.
III.Drill a 1/4"hole, centered, at the bottom of each leg, tap the hole and install the spikes into each leg.
IV.Install the top end of the finished legs to each IKEA shelf module using Carpenters glue.
V.Stack and level each module using the spikes as the adjusting mechanism.Make sure that each module is even,level and does not rock or rattle.
VI.Install your components and let the stand settle-in for a day.Recheck for level and eveness.
VII.Enjoy.
If you have further questions or need clarifications ,I can be contacted by e mail at greaterranges@msn.com or thru the Neuance website at www.neuanceaudio.com/
Best,
Ken Lyon
GreaterRanges/Neuance |
addendum to IKEA8lyte-
I should note that you will have 4 unused legs left over from the base unit that will be handy for a component change or to replace the leg that was accidentally miscut;0)
The spikes should be ground to a relatively shallow
45 degree angle as the IKEA shelving surface is relatively soft.If the spikes penetrate too deeply into the veneer,some isolation will be lost.
Spike protector pads can be fabricated from sample swatches of formica countertop laminate to match the finish and are available for free at most large home hardware outlets.These should be glued down beneath the spikes with carpenters glue or adhered with 3M brand general purpose carpet tape #714NA.
The spike protector pads are handy to protect fine flooring from damage.These should be adhered with the double backed tape for easy removal at a later date.
Additional bracing of the legs for increased rigidity,while not absolutely necessary, will ensure maximum,long lasting performance of the IKEA*lyte structure.
Ken |
IKEA*lyte addendum #2-
if one chooses to use the Lack coffeetable as a base module, you'll need to relocate the rear legs of each shelf module to accomodate the narrower profile of the coffeetable(end table measures about 21.5" in depth whereas the coffeetable is about 18" deep). The excess can be cut off with that face placed to the rear for cosmetics(veneered if you're anal).
In leiu of spikes for the shelf modules, one can get 80-90% of the performance with even less hassle, tooling and crafting by using round-headed screws(allen,phillips or torx) threaded into the leg bottoms.The screw itself then becomes the adjusting mechanism.The primary requirement is that a very small contact area is maintained which provides a bottleneck for floorbourne energy entry. A rounded shape is nearly as effective as a spike *in this application*.You will still need to use "proper" adjustable spikes or cones for the interface between the floor and reference base module.
Ken |
Dave43- My apologies for making you my unwitting victim in my soapbox crusade.I appreciate and admire your helpful and generous contributions to this forum.
Ohlala-
THAT was "tangling"?"Better get those teeth sharpened.
;0)
btw- about the 3 point thingus- be a bit careful here. 3pt is superior with 3 point components but if the component uses 4 feet, you'll be subjecting the shelf/platform to the possibility of "waffling" at the unsupported corners.
Best,
Ken |
Rushton,
The "IKEA*lyte" construct is largely intended to do much of the same type of damping and isolating that Neuance was designed to achieve.
Neuance ideally should be used in the context of a spike decoupled metal stand or support such as Target,Standesign,Apollo, original Sound Organisation, Apollo,Premier,Cornflake Shop,Mana,Solidsteel,etc.
Still,the addition of Neuance isolation platforms will take the isolation benefits further and with greater refinement.
Neuance shelves can be easily adapted to supports such as the "IKEA*lyte", Quadraspire and even the dreaded Sanus,Salamander and your mama's AV cabinet by drilling 4 holes thru the shelving and tapping a thread to accept a set of cone-point setscrews which I make available to my customers at no charge for just such applications.
The Neuance platform would then rest upon the points of the upward pointing setscrew tips and can be adjusted with an allen/hex key wrench from below to level the platform.
Ken
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Thank you,Francisco.I understood perfectly.
Now, about that TNT thing,- maybe you could persuade them to do a review of aftermarket shelving before I submit the IKEA*lyte project.
;0)
Best,
Ken |
Hi Sean,
>>>The fact that you had the courage to mention that the Ikea design had similarities to your more expensive Neuance shelves shows that you aren't afraid to tell the truth. Even if it may come at some personal expense.<<<
You'll note that I stated that the "IKEA*lyte" is conceptually similar .You should also note that I didn't blurt out the Neuance "recipe".
;0) hehe
Generally speaking, DIY'ers wouldn't be primary customers for a product such as mine since brainstorming,discovery and the act of crafting itself are as important to the audio tinkerer as the end result.Actually,allowing folks to hear for themselves the benefits of low mass/rapid dissipation support is my best and most effective means of promotion.
When I first started doing these things back in the mid- 80's, I don't believe that the term PRaT had even yet been coined and with the exception of Linn and Naim dealerships,any talk of "tunefullness" or pace was universally met by blank stares and polite gestures to the door.For a time, the british press championed the cause but somewhere along the way, the arrogance of Linn marketing tactics turned as many off as they had educated.
Back to your project-
I'm in complete agreement with your points/requirements no.s 1-5.
I have been searching for some time, such a product to recommend to my own customers and last year discovered a support system that meets all of your issues-
Apollo Aria modular supports which are available thru May Audio, the former North American Target distributor.
These are modular units of tubular steel construction with stacking "add-on" modules bolted firmly and rigidly to the level below. Each "add-on" module is available in various heights to accomodate a wide variety of componentry.I have made special arrangements with May Audio so that my customers can purchase these units directly from May Audio pre-threaded and including a spike decoupling hardware kit supplied for each module and sold at a slight discount without the stock shelving.The units are extremely well constructed,highly effective, reasonably priced and quite attractive.The 455mm width model is the best performer.
http://www.apollohifi.co.uk/
>>> How do you think this will work ?<<<
Great.
>>>High / low points of a design like this ??? <<<
The only major disadvantage that i forsee is the continuous nature of the threaded rod.It will have a tendancy to transfer fairly effectively floorbourne energy from the base to the top.
If some means could be done to secure the sections with 2 or more shorter rods or individual bolts to make it discontinous you'd have a near ideal support framework.
Barring that, I'd suggest several pea-sized blobs of blu-tac to each of the full length threaded rods.I'd not attempt to damp them heavily,tho.
>>>What diameter threaded rod would you recommend for the risers ? <<<
I'd say that it isn't all that critical but my preference would be to use the smaller diameter rod stock to keep the resonant frequencies high.The greater the mechanical impedance mismatch between the framework and the shelving, the more effective your support will be at blocking floorbourne vibrations from reaching the components.
>>>Should i use the same threaded rod for the three racks that i'll need for this system ?<<<
Now you're getting a bit anal.
;0)
One-size fits-all rods should be just fine.
Best,
Ken
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-never do multiple re-edits at 3:oo am :0)
Re:in my reply to Sean, the next to last comment should instead read -
>>>What diameter threaded rod would you recommend for the risers ? <<<
I'd say that it isn't all that critical but my preference would be to use the smaller diameter rod stock to increase the likelyhood for energies to be kept at higher frequency modes which the shelving can more readily absorb/convert to heat.
Ken |
Hi Sean,
I think your pipe wrap idea is a fine one.I hasten to add that you really needn't to cover the entire length tho.
A little damping goes a long ways and quite frankly,I'll bet if you were to audition your Premiers both with and without damped rods in a side by side,you'd find that the differences would be extremely subtle and probably unnoticable in a more casual listening session.
Your biggest enemies are primarily the powerful and distruptive low frequency energies transmitted from the flooring and from the internally generated energies of power supplies and transformers.
I find that while it is beneficial to minimise and control airbourne intrusion,that these types of disturbances are *relatively* benign.The reason for that is that they are typically generated by the music itself and consequently "play in time" and "in tune".
I tend to avoid using extreme measures in controlling those for fear of throwing the baby out with the bathwater by "overdamping".
By this I mean that most conventional damping methods(particularly elastomers) tend to do the bulk of their work over fairly narrow frequency ranges and thus tend to create "hi-fi effects" by fragmenting the musical content.
The *art* involved in resonance control appears to center around creating measures which are extremely broadband and even in their nature so as to most faithfully preserve expression, emotions and meaning.
Best,
Ken |
I understand the concern but the device is actually much more stable and secure than you'd imagine.The spike will be inset from the edges a good 1-3/8" or so and the topsheet of the tables is quite soft.When you place even a moderate load,the spikes dig in pretty firmly and you have to push pretty hard to get any movement and would be dragging the spike tip across the veneer.In a typical Mana phased array, the clearances are closer to 1/2" and the spikes rest on a hard and fairly smooth formica.Unless you do a lot of "entertaining", practice for WWF tag team wrestling matches or train Labrador retrievers in your listening room,I say that the stacked IKEA is pretty secure.Certainly moreso than using rollerblocks or tall unsecured footers,etc under your components.
Best,
Ken |
more addendums-
If you're still worried about slippage/accidents, you can stick self adhesive felt pads(the kind used beneath knick-knacks and furniture) to the tabletops beneath the spikes for a little added security.I suppose you could even glue washers to the table corners with the spikes sitting in the resulting recesses.
Ken |
