|
Wynton started out with Blakey's Messengers, and everybody said he was arguably the worlds best trumpet player. That could still be true because he also plays classical music. While he might be the best jazz trumpet player, that did not include being the best jazz musician. After Wynton left Blakey, and was on his own, the shortcomings in his jazz composing talents became apparent. But he also plays classical, and that bumped his stature up with the establishment. https://wyntonmarsalis.org/videos/view/ms.-b.c.-art-blakey-and-the-jazz-messengers-live-at-seventh-a...There, Wynton is playing the hippest of the hip jazz, and he's blowing it out of the park. Criticism of Wynton from Aficionados and other jazz musicians did not come along until after he left Blakey. That's when we discovered he wasn't as good at making his own music as we thought he would be. That's it in a nutshell. |
Wynton:
Then, pray tell, why he is at Lincoln Center?
You are out into no-man's land of the culture wars. Gotta pick a side.
Cheers |
Wynton is a highly educated musician, that made him perfect for Lincoln Center. He started off in the big league of jazz musicians, not just any musicians, but the big league of jazz musicians, and he blew like big league musicians. After he left Blakey, there were extremely high expectations; it was expected that he would compare to musicians like "Lee Morgan", Donald Byrd, and Freddie Hubbard, but his albums didn't rise to the occasion. The problem was that more was expected than he could deliver. Now if you read the newspaper, he always got good press, but if you talked to aficionados, and the top jazz musicians, he wasn't in the "creative" running with the likes of Lee Morgan and Donald Byrd. Fortunately for Wynton, since he could also play Classical, that really put him in good with the establishment; one that really never understood hardbop or modern jazz noway. The bottom line is that more "creativity" was expected of Wynton than he was able to deliver. When you compare Wynton to Lee Morgan or Donald Byrd, you'll see where many other top jazz musicians are coming from. The establishment said it was jealously, but they're the last people to ask any questions about hardbop or modern jazz. There was no jealously, just statements of fact. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr8MXT5f7gw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jpFtZ9KmvI |
Who is the best "hard-bop" jazz musician is not determined by some authority figure, but by a consensus of jazz musicians and jazz aficionados on the street; primarily in big cities. You can feel free to disagree with that consensus. Clifford Brown was considered the best until his death. He was killed on June 26, 1956; I was living on the South Side of Chicago with my older cousin who had only recently introduced me to Clifford Brown. The remarkable thing about being the best, is that even after death, a musician can still be considered the best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt_fmhtePocNot until Lee Morgan was any musician unanimously considered the best. He died February 19, 1972 at age 33. As I stated, a musician can still be considered the best even after his death. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHN6-yWFKPcFor a short while, before Wynton Marsalis left Art Blakey, he was considered the best. That's because as a trumpet player, he was comparable to both those musicians. It was not until he became his own man, making his own albums which did not live up to what was expected, and were not in the same league as the music of Clifford Brown or Lee Morgan that he was no longer considered the best. However, since he also played classical music, I think he was still considered the best by the establishment; hence, Lincoln Center. Of course, the assessment I made can be challenged. |
*****
Of course, the assessment I made can be challenged.*****
It will be. Appointment with the doctor this morning. Will post later today.
Cheers |
Wynton is more than a trumpet player. His trumpet playing is about as important to Jazz, as Ellington's piano playing, or Mingus' bass playing. If that's how you see him, you have missed it.
He is the face of Jazz in the world. He knows it's history, he speaks with authority, and he even looks and dresses the part. He is keeping the flame alive. What he does at Lincoln Center and with the Jazz orchestra cannot be over stated.
As far as the guys on the street or in the barber shop, their opinions do not enter into it. Lee, Brown etc.... were great players, period. Great players are relatively common. Leaders are not so common.
Some had Leadership potential, but declined. Miles, Bird and Trane come to mind
Wynton is The LEADER in the world of Jazz. He still sets the standard, in spite of being under almost constant attack by noise-makers and their shills.
He can only be critiqued in relation to the Giants of the art form. Not just mere players.
Hell, even the incomparable Rok2id could play trumpet. :)
Cheers |
If you can't win the argument, change the subject; that sounds like politics 101 to me. On to more good trumpet player from New Orleans. (Between me and you, I was in basic training with this guy named Petrie from Nawlins, that's the way he pronounced it, and he was born in New Orleans, had that accent that let you know it) Maybe things done changed since that time. Nicholas Payton was born 1973 in New Orleans, and he's a top rated trumpet player; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWXELfT-pMk |
|
I like Payton a lot. Have a lot of his CDs. I think his idol is Pops.
Cheers |
|
|
|
I'm sure everyone has seen this, but if not, look up Ken Burns Jazz on Amazon prime. They spend a lot of time in NOLA, since it's the birthplace and all. Great history lesson on jazz, most of it from early on. https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/jazz/episode-guide |
So I see people harping on Wynton, but I didn’t catch anyone mentioning his talented brother Delfeayo Marsalis (sp?). I’ve enjoyed listening to him and his band play at Snug Harbir In NO; a fine talent. Not to people’s tastes here?
|
|
|
|
|
Most people believe the trumpet is the most important instrument in jazz, followed by the sax. Dizzy Gillespie, a well known trumpet player, was a disciple of Roy Eldridge; South Carolina-born Dizzy was also a crucial figure in the birth of Latin jazz, and famed for his big band Afro-Cuban fusion sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhD_KJpRwAY |
Cuba Disco:
Nice tunes and a pretty good singer. I think the guys around her were the pros, the ’Orchestra’ seemed to be for show. They didn’t contribute too much. Seemed awful young. A group that large should have had more presence and volume.
Cuba does seem to spend a lot of effort on their young people. Gotta get them beholding to the regime early and often.
Nice clip.
Cheers |
Dizzy:
The most important instrument in Jazz is of course, the Piano. They can do it by themselves.
Dizzy? I always think of him as the Pops of be-bop.
Cheers |
I'll never understand the Wynton critics.
Why is creativity the measure? The man is a consummate student of jazz and a fantastic horn player. He's been passing the torch for decades. The jazz world is much richer due to his presence and vision.
|
Piano is in no way the most important jazz instrument. You must be hung up on European heritage.
Jazz and blues are founded in "vocal" expression emanating from the human soul. Wind and brass instruments are perfect for "singing" or "crying out" through a musical instrument.
Piano is percussive. Fantastic jazz can (and has) been created on piano. But sax, trumpet, clarinet are the most important - they allow the inner voice to pour forth much like singing. The players literally sing through the instrument.
|
*****
I'll never understand the Wynton critics. Why is creativity the measure?*****
His critics are mostly adherents of what is called 'modern' or 'contemporary' Jazz. In this sort of 'Jazz', the music is whatever the player says it is. If you don't get it, then something is wrong with you. Sort of like the Emperor's clothes.
That means sounds, I won't call it music, devoid of blues, and emotional feeling of any kind. The complete antithesis of the music that started in New Orleans.
Juilliard and Berklee are their holy sites. The students from these places couldn't find New Orleans or Mississippi with an Atlas.
Wynton is on the other side of this cultural war. The fate of Jazz as we know it is at stake.
Cheers
|
*****
You must be hung up on European heritage.*****
I make be hung up on many things, European heritage ain't one of them.
The correct answer is the piano. It is more expressive than trumpet or sax. I have never seen anyone, save classical players, play trumpet or sax on stage by themselves. Those instruments are not expressive enough by themselves. They need support. Remember, we are speaking of Jazz.
Cheers
|
|
|
You're just plain wrong, and I can tell our disagreement will never be resolved.
Keep in mind - Louis Armstrong was inspired not by piano, but by the rags bottles and bones guy playing his heart out on a tin horn.
King Oliver, Buddy Bolden, Louis... the roots of jazz aren't traced to piano.
|
Louis Armstrong, Charley Parker, and Dizzy Gillespie, are three of the most renowned names in jazz; two trumpets and one sax, no piano.
We hear of "Concert pianists", but that's in another Genre of music. I like long piano solos, but that's as far as it goes. A solo piano all night long grates on my ears; eventually they begin to sound like "Schroeder"; that's the kid with the toy piano in Peanuts.
Your ears are specially tuned to pianos, which is why you like them so much. My ears are more tuned to sax and trumpet. That being said, I wouldn't even want to hear a solo sax or trumpet all night long, no matter who played it.
It just boils down to; "Different strokes for different folks".
|
|
In Jazz, designating any one instrument as “the most important” is, at best, pointless. Just as pointless as designating any one player on any given instrument as “the best”. At worst, it belies a lack of appreciation for some of the basics and nuances of the art form; IMO.
In an art form in which individuality is a key aspect of true excellence the idea of “best” is like saying that Granny Smith apples are the “best” apples. There may be a best Granny Smith, but it doesn’t make that the best of all apples. Try saying that to someone that loves Honey Crisp apples instead! Moving on to bananas 😊:
No instrument in Jazz is “the most important”. First, piano was not the first harmony instrument to gain widespread use in (early) Jazz ensembles; the banjo was. Going even further back in the birth of Jazz, it was the guitar in the blues that was the most common harmony instrument. So, what makes an instrument “important”? Seems to me that, once again, it is what is done with it in the sense of how it innovated and contributed to the development of style in jazz. As such, ANY instrument can, and many did, accomplish that. Some of the best and most innovative Jazz was played by, for instance, Sonny Rollins in his piano-less trio recordings. And, how does one reconcile the notion with the fact that a relative minority of the greatest musicians in jazz played piano?
Thanks for the New Orleans clips. A lot of good stuff.
|
AAUGH !!!!!!!!!!! Not THE FROGMAN ! Just when we thought it was safe to talk about jazz. AAUGH !!!!
As usual you people are not thinking about it the right way. The question was the most important instrument in Jazz. Not in it's development or it's history. I took that to mean most important TODAY.
If I were to say, we can have Jazz, but you can only have one instrument to play it on. Human voice not counted. Which instrument would that be?
Listening to Trane, Bird, or Miles, playing solo would be cruel and unusual. After a while. :)
The most important does not mean the most popular.
Cheers
|
Gee, thanks for the warm welcome; and don’t worry.... **** Listening to Trane, Bird, or Miles, playing solo would be cruel and unusual. **** For you. That explains much. Enjoy. Cruel and unusual punishment? : https://youtu.be/qPCBqSy3lwk |
Your clip makes my point. Thanks.
Cheers |
More important than the instrument is the musician playing it. When any new musician comes along on any instrument, and he's good enough to be compared to all the greats before him, he's good. While I heard of "Gregory Porter", since male vocalist wasn't a niche in my collection that I was trying to fill, I didn't pay much attention; and besides, how could somebody who dressed like that sing? What possessed him to wear that hat, it was a mistake; I just knew that the next time I saw him, he would have corrected it. Well, the next time I saw him, he still had on that goofy looking hat. Hat or no hat, it's time to listen and hear whether or not he can sing. This guy can sing, when I compare him to all the great male vocalists that went before him, he compares to the best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFsChbwsbmoI like this, but no matter what he sings, he sounds good; you can hear his mastery of music, and know that he has a lot of formal education. |
|
|
|
I'll just have to pretend not to see that hat. While there have been a number of good female vocalists to come along, he's the only outstanding male vocalist to come along in quite some time.
To put something special in "Merry Christmas Baby", a song that's been sung by all the best male vocalists since God knows when, is quite a feat.
Cécile McLorin Salvant is just so unique; she adds a new and different twist to whatever she sings.
As many times as I've heard that tune, not once was it in church; unless I was at the church of good times, but I'm sure reverend Smith's "Sermon" has redeeming qualities.
|
|
|
|
|
The first time I heard "Ode To Billy Joe", I was crossing a bridge in Mississippi in my brand new "Duece" (Electra 225), and I was sure it was the Tallahatchie Bridge, but since I was coming into Hattiesburg, as I discovered much later, that was not it. I have never heard a version of this song I didn't like; I wonder if it's because I was so busy spending my misspent youth. I wish I could spend all over again? Gene Harris can make anything sound good. For old time sake here is the original; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv33eaygVDQ |
|
Orpheus, though Mathew McConaughey is not from New Orleans, this is why so many local love this city. Even people that live in Louisiana but not in New Orleans claim this city. https://youtu.be/AMFnOy_BEcMSaturday night I sat in my porch in this heat with a few neighbors drinking bourbon and listening to music |
Nikonola, you have answered many questions I had about New Orleans; like what makes it so different from any other city.
In every city I've ever been to, people "retreat" from one another; they build nice decks in the back for privacy. They even ignore the gun fire like in a war zone in the inner city. That gunfire is not people getting shot, but gangs warning other gangs not to come on their "turf"; it's kind of like animals peeing on trees.
I like the way people in New Orleans sit on the "front porch" where they can engage with one another; after all there's nothing they can do about the gigantic problems we are confronted with, might as well drink and be merry; that's what makes New Orleans so unique, and is one of the reasons why those who are born there prefer to stay there.
Thanks.
|
|
|
